Kuni's Frost Mage PVE Guide

[Deleted]

Thanks for the replies

[oraz4000]

Another issue is Alter time is not snap shotting frozen thought either.

[Mastamage]

Another issue is Alter time is not snap shotting frozen thought either.

It's been reported by Lhiv. It's up to the Devs to figure it out now.

[Deleted]

He responded to your bug report? Tried it 2 or 3 times with the IV T16 2p bug, but no response, nor by bug report team, gc or anybody in charge on our german forums - don´t think we have a "mage mvp" or the like. It feels a little bit, warlock issues got fixed the next day, frost mages have to wait, well... it take some time till somebody register it, then you hear absolutely nothing and after a few weeks - we got the fix.

[Sheyk]

So I've been playing my alt mage and I've encountered an issue I haven't read anything about concerning alter time.

When you pop it, if a trinket proc before it trigger you lose the whole proc once it triggers which I found extremely frustrating. Which lead me to wonder if it would be worth it to /cancelaura alter time if a trinket were to proc during it's duration. So basically the question turns out to be is it better to get an extra 5 sec on Icy Veins+Ice Lances/FFB or retain the 6-9 sec or 16-19 sec trinket buff?

Right now sometimes I try to activate alter time manualy sacrificing 1-3 sec of Icy Veins right after I launch my ice lances/ffb if I haven't seen any procs in a while. But this is a gamble and I'm no fan of that.

[Mastamage]

He responded to your bug report? Tried it 2 or 3 times with the IV T16 2p bug, but no response, nor by bug report team, gc or anybody in charge on our german forums - don´t think we have a "mage mvp" or the like. It feels a little bit, warlock issues got fixed the next day, frost mages have to wait, well... it take some time till somebody register it, then you hear absolutely nothing and after a few weeks - we got the fix.

I reported it directly to Lhiv.

[Salystra]

So I've been playing my alt mage and I've encountered an issue I haven't read anything about concerning alter time.

When you pop it, if a trinket proc before it trigger you lose the whole proc once it triggers which I found extremely frustrating. Which lead me to wonder if it would be worth it to /cancelaura alter time if a trinket were to proc during it's duration. So basically the question turns out to be is it better to get an extra 5 sec on Icy Veins+Ice Lances/FFB or retain the 6-9 sec or 16-19 sec trinket buff?

Right now sometimes I try to activate alter time manualy sacrificing 1-3 sec of Icy Veins right after I launch my ice lances/ffb if I haven't seen any procs in a while. But this is a gamble and I'm no fan of that.

I'm afraid you make little sense in this comment...

Are you saying you're losing the procs that proc during your Alter Time duration when your Alter Time runs out?
If so that's always been the case and one of the biggest issues with the damn spell especially when others choose to pop heroism/lust during it as you still get the debuff.

As for cancelling the Alter Time if something procs then no it will not be worth cancelling it as your trinket has still procced and therefore on internal cd.

The general rule of thumb with Alter Time is to have the most procs/cds up BEFORE using it to get all those procs/cds extended by 6 seconds.

[Akraen]

I never cancel alter time. That's enabling the bad habit of allowing a bad wager to be made in the first place.

I recommend using TMW to know what's the most important proc to snapshot, and always make your decision to AT based off that.

I lose some stuff now and then, but generally when you're keeping AT to watching icy veins, pre-pot, heroism, and second-pot as a real priority, everything else seems to fall nicely into it. Also if you get a rogue to tricks you, that's 6 seconds well duplicated. I've gained 3 million damage from ticks before, that's more than I've heard it help any other class.

[Deleted]

As for cancelling the Alter Time if something procs then no it will not be worth cancelling it as your trinket has still procced and therefore on internal cd.

I think you are misunderstanding. The question is, whether it is worthwhile to cancel AT BEFORE it runs out so as to avoid the "reset" to the "snapshotted" time. In that way, the trinkets can run their course as if you did not press AT at all. I.e. you are not _ending_ AT, but _cancelling_ it.

For a typical 450s fight, you have between 2 and 3 AT and IV, depending on the specific fight length and when you pop them.
Lets assume you mess up one of them, you loose 6s of IV uptime, which is at most 20% more damage during a 6s window. 6/450 = 1.3% of the fight and 20% of that is 0.27% dps boost that you loose. If you also snapshotted a meta proc, you loose approx. 0.8% (1.2*1.35-1)*6/450.
With 40k spellpower from gear, we calculate the increase of one proc of a 10k Int-trinket proccing 1/min for 10s. 40k+10k*7*10/450 on a basis of 40k+10k*6*10/450 (6 procs successful and one messed up) is a 0.5% increase in average SP, which translates approx. to dps due to linear scaling. Most of the trinkets in SoO are stronger, i.e Bindings is 20s, so about 1%.
With the 2T15 bonus, things might change, since you essentially loose 30s worth of 1800 haste, mastery and crit. Each of them scales approx. as 1/2 to 1/3 int give or take a few%. Let's be optimistic since they also scale with each other and use 1/2, 3x1800x1/2*30/450 /41.3k=0.44% plus the lost IV uptime of 0.27% = 0.71%, which is higher than a 10s trinket and lower than a 20s trinket. With meta, you loose 1.24% which is slightly higher than bindings, but e.g. lower than H-Bindings.
If you also snapshotted some procs (BF, FoF, Meta or Pot) and maybe weak trinket procs, the scale probably tips in favor of not cancelling it, even without 2T15. It strongly depends on the exact circumstances on what was snapshotted and maybe someone feels an urge to make an excel sheet with all the combinations and calculate it.

[gallamann]

Light, regardless of whether you let AT run its course or cancel it, the moment AT ends you are returned to the state you had when AT was initially pressed. Aka canceling AT is the exact same thing as AT normally ending.

For Fire there is potential for a very nice combust causing you to cancel AT, other than that specific scenario, I can think of no reason to cancel AT to gain a damage advantage.

AT is sweet for extending Pot time, and as frost if you can get BF FFB, FoF IL x2 up with 6+ seconds left on your Pot and a Trinket procc'ed, well that just makes for some yummy numbers. Beyond the pull, it is nice to have up again for final pot, in between look to extend any solid proc or Time Warp, doing so should resolve majority of your potential problems of having a proc happen while under AT.

Otherwise if it does happen, well just have to "grin and bear it". I run in a 10 man group and get to hit TW, so its impossible for me to screw myself in that scenario. If Raid Leader calls for TW and I have AT running, well then I let it finish first before mashing TW (sometimes if I feel it is more benefit to raid to mash now, cancel AT and the mash TW).

[aoz]

Light, regardless of whether you let AT run its course or cancel it, the moment AT ends you are returned to the state you had when AT was initially pressed. Aka canceling AT is the exact same thing as AT normally ending.

Seems like you two are referring to 2 different things when you say "cancel":

1) Pressing AT a 2nd time before it runs its course will do as you say, and return you to the original state
2) Clicking off the AT buff will cancel everything and act as if you never cast it in the first place (no reset to original state)

Cancelling AT is a thing if you have the Immerseus trinket. It's not uncommon to have it proc 10+ sec into the fight so then you have to make a choice between cancelling (clicking off) 6 extra sec of meta/rppm proc/pot vs munching/waiting for an Immerseus trinket proc. That's what the math Light is talking about refers to.

[Libretto]

I don't use AT until the immerseus trinket procs, period. Losing that entire trinket proc or cancelling AT are both massive DPS losses, so the logical thing to do is avoid having to do either by waiting. I will still get AT benefit on icy veins / pot / lust and with toxic totem as my other trinket, there's a chance for another proc to pop around the same time as bindings so I can AT benefit that too.

As fire you may handle AT differently to max combustion, but as arcane/frost there's little reason not to wait IMO.

[aoz]

I don't use AT until the immerseus trinket procs, period. Losing that entire trinket proc or cancelling AT are both massive DPS losses, so the logical thing to do is avoid having to do either by waiting. I will still get AT benefit on icy veins / pot / lust and with toxic totem as my other trinket, there's a chance for another proc to pop around the same time as bindings so I can AT benefit that too.

As fire you may handle AT differently to max combustion, but as arcane/frost there's little reason not to wait IMO.

Letting the meta & toxic totem buffs fall off or sitting on procs for too long while waiting for it to proc are also massive DPS losses - that's why it's relevant to math it out to figure out exactly when to use it and when to cancel. Intuitively though, it makes sense to wait as frost because 6s of immerseus trinket extension is about equal to 6s of toxic totem and theres much less risk of encountering the cancel scenario when targetting the immerseus trinket buff to extend.

As arcane I think the rotation is skewed against waiting because I typically hit 4 stacks of AB with 6-7s left on breath/meta, and my only options for waiting are 1) burn tons of mana spamming AB at 4stacks, 2) throw missiles & dump stacks then re-stack to 4 3) sit around doing low dps stuff like spam ice lance, arc explosion, etc - all of which are massive dps losses.

Basically timing AT with hitting 4 stacks of AB works out perfectly for getting the full 6s from meta/rppm, and things get really awkward trying to wait beyond that.

[lolbubble]

So what I gather so far is, that I shouldn't be using the icy veins glyph?

[durrtygoodz]

So what I gather so far is, that I shouldn't be using the icy veins glyph?

With 2 piece Tier 16, you should probably unglyph it until the situation gets sorted.

[Deleted]

I just tried installing and using SimulationCraft on my mage, as suggested in this thread. I followed the instructions of the video, and I would just like a bit of help understanding my results...



Basicaly, the stat weights it shows is very different from the ones on Ask Mr. Robot, which I've used so far for all my reforging/enchanting/gemming. Also, does that graph mean that I should just go all out Mastery, and everything will be super awesome?

Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this, I just figured it fit since the link to the SimCraft video guide was here.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Basicaly, the stat weights it shows is very different from the ones on Ask Mr. Robot, which I've used so far for all my reforging/enchanting/gemming. Also, does that graph mean that I should just go all out Mastery, and everything will be super awesome?

It means that you have an absurd amount of haste relative to how much you have in the other stats. Try and drop down around 13.5k haste, putting it into mastery, and run that reforge plot again.

[Mastamage]

I just tried installing and using SimulationCraft on my mage, as suggested in this thread. I followed the instructions of the video, and I would just like a bit of help understanding my results...



Basicaly, the stat weights it shows is very different from the ones on Ask Mr. Robot, which I've used so far for all my reforging/enchanting/gemming. Also, does that graph mean that I should just go all out Mastery, and everything will be super awesome?

Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this, I just figured it fit since the link to the SimCraft video guide was here.

SimC and AMR should be used with caution. It's ok to use to get a stat weight synopsis but that's as far as I would go with it. The tool is only as good as the operator.

[Deleted]

It means that you have an absurd amount of haste relative to how much you have in the other stats. Try and drop down around 13.5k haste, putting it into mastery, and run that reforge plot again.

But in this guide it says to go for ~48% haste, and I'm currently at 48.79% haste with Frost armor on (39.07% without) and 31.48% mastery unbuffed, 42.15% with the mastery buff. Should I still drop to 13.5k haste to test the simulation again?

EDIT: Link to my armory, in case that is relevant

[Malfecto]

Hey guys, I just wanted to share a different perspective here. Just as a foreword, I've done all out haste, balanced, and mastery over haste since patch. This week, I did something a little different. I capped haste at the GCD (50% buffed), gemmed int, and put the balance in mastery instead of blowing mastery all out. This was done in an attempt to work past my handicap of poor multi-dotting skills.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/b...6-3b28d9cdd7cb (weights should be in there)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Raves/advanced

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...one/?enc=kills

I got a chest tier upgrade at Sha and had to bounce back and forth on Spoils and Thok... well Thok just depresses me. Those are the only ones that I had issues with.

I didn't want to muddle Akraen's thread with this since he has a lot in there already. For me, personally I consider myself a pretty average mage. That said, at least in my hands, I don't see much difference overall between any of the philosophies. Maybe in more skilled hands and/or under specific conditions from fight to fight, each method might be better, but to be honest I feel like in general we are just trading damage from one area to the other.

I just wanted to put another perspective out here because I think people are way over thinking this. Basically if you understand how the spec works, you can put out decent numbers.

**Addendum**

Just to point out that the other mage in our raid is using what amounts to the default AMR weights.