Kuni's Frost Mage PVE Guide

[Deleted]

@ tannzenator
Simcraft worked well for me till rppm trinkets. I did a lot of testing on dummies together with some buddies. We all got the same impression:

It feels like there are kind of "breakpoints" and a "cap" for rppm trinkets. Under 10.000 haste rating, the trinkets uptime dropped significantly:

11 - 15% BoH and 12 - 14% Wushoolay (3x frost)

Above 10k it was all fine and the both trinkets had a uptime around 25%. (in 40 minutes)

There was no difference in uptime for me between 12700 haste and 15349 in 40 minutes! That is why I gem int and int/haste (yellow socket) after 12680. Two of my buddies did alysrazor latley and both were flying around catching the haste and crit buffs. They both had around 26% boh uptime.

Sure, we have no real evidence for this, maybe it was badluck under 10k haste rating, but the whole rppm design sucks for dedicated players, who try to "plan" things. I can´t count how often a trinket procced during alter time. I hope they drop the rppm design for trinkets.

I´ll still use simcraft, but I will reforge according to my gut feeling, because it worked better for me.


@ huth

yes, but the change between builds is significant in my opinion. 6% haste and 1235 Int. If we talking about 500 haste and 250 int, I would say okay, but with that amount of stats ?

[Keiyra]

@ huth

yes, but the change between builds is significant in my opinion. 6% haste and 1235 Int. If we talking about 500 haste and 250 int, I would say okay, but with that amount of stats ?

The change in stats may be significant, but the change in dps is not. It's within the margin of error. What that tells you is that the dps value of those stats are so close to each other, that even a large change in the stats does not effectively change your dps at all.

[Deleted]

Hm okay, never seen it that way, thanks. Always calculated it like (for example)

Int 5.0 Haste 3.5

3.5 x 2000 Haste = +7000 dps

5.0 x 1000 Int = -5000 dps

Gain: 2000 dps

[Keiyra]

That only works if you are adding 1k int or 2k haste on top of the stats you used in the sim to get those stat weights. Those stat weights represent dps gain when adding more of that stat to your existing stats.

That's not the reality, the reality is reforging and regemming within your existing stat values from gear. What you want to do is run the reforge plot for int versus haste, and see which direction yields more dps (int or haste) - then re run the sim for those new regemmed stat values and look at the new stat weights.

That will tell you which stat will garner a larger increase when being added to your regemmed stats (like from item upgrades, additional sockets, etc) - least i think thats what you are looking for.

[Akraen]

It is 12684 not 12680.

Maximize mastery once you reach that number for haste. Ignore crit.

[Deleted]

Still don`t get 12684 (I´m staying around 13k to be sure). According to my calculations the 18th tick is @ 12671,8099683

17,5 : 12 = 45.833333333% not 45.878942%

No one could explain me that. Mastery is tricky, still prefer to stay at minimum of 5k crit.

[Malfecto]

I get 17.5/12 = 1.45833

1.45833/1.07/1.05 = ((1.298024 -1)*100)*425 = 12666.02 or 12119.95 for gobbos.

*edit*

NM, I guess that's wrong. I tested it with 12129 (what I could forge as close to 12120 as I thought it should be), and only got 17 ticks. Ate some old haste food, and it ticked over at 12,138, which is haste for a gobbo back calculated from 45.88% for the 18th tick. So I guess there is an error in that tick formula. If you use 17.505/12, it gives the expected 1.4588 once rounded up. Looks like a significant digits issue. So maybe instead of # of expected ticks - 0.5, it should be #ticks - 0.495?

[tannzenator]

-pete

You are calculating that correctly if blizzard id not round but unfortunately there is a slight modification. Essentially, because blizzard rounds tick-speeds to the nearest millisecond, you actually need a little bit more haste to hit some of the breakpoints. (See tickspeed required and adjusted tickspeed required in the haste breakpoint spreadsheet).

ie. for the 18th breakpoint you need a tickspeed of 685.71 milliseconds. If you had exactly enough haste to hit that, blizzard would round your DOTs tickspeed to 686 which would be slightly too slow and only hit the 17th. To hit the 18th breakpoint, instead you must have enough haste to hit a tickspeed of 685.49999 which would round down to 685.

This is all described on Totemspot somewhere, but I forget the link.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

I already went through this shit. DoT scaling on NT makes no damned sense, and trying to make sense of it is just going to result in a headache. Maybe I'll see if I can have it explained to me, but 12684 is indeed the 18th tick. I've tried 12682, it gives 17. Part of the reason is that you CAN have more than 12 second duration, which makes no sense either.

[Deleted]

@Malfecto

Divided by 425.19

@Kuni

But who ever made that spreadsheet knows how to?

[Deleted]

It certainly does seem like who ever made the spreadsheet got it right, somehow. Also it would be so nice knowing who made it to get some clarification.

and pete why is it my bookmark spreadsheet got all clases listed in the top pane, when yours is mage only oO?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...r=false&gid=39

Just linking it in case any one needs it for other classes as well =) Bookmark !

[Deleted]

I will try to explain it more simpler :
DOT is x*y second. DPS is calculate on the total duration of the spell but can also been calculate on the duration of 1 ticks.
Haste change 2 things : add new tick at some breakpoint and reduce the duration of each tick.
Why the total duration change? because the duration of the new tick is added to all the previous one.
Why the DPS is increase between to breakpoint? because the duration between each tick (or the duration of each tick) is reduced by haste like all spell/channel.

make the calculation to see how the dps change for only 1 ticks, all of this can be verified in game.

So please, stop with this stupid breakpoint, even LB won't have it any more in 5.3 with explosion scaling.

[jtmzac]

I think I understand the theory of why NT scales linearly with haste but its the changing length of the dot affecting other spells that mean breakpoints are significant. (well at least to simcraft)

However in reality because of latency and because real people aren't ai's its probably completely pointless to pay any attention to breakpoints.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

But who ever made that spreadsheet knows how to?

It's folly to assume that devs don't talk to players, especially during a beta, when that was made.

So please, stop with this stupid breakpoint, even LB won't have it any more in 5.3 with explosion scaling.

There's entirely a DPCT breakpoint though, and that's worth going for. I'm also fairly sure explosion scaling is only at extra ticks, and not intermediate haste points.


I understand why, mechanically, DoT breakpoints aren't perfect. They're rounding to the nearest millisecond between ticks for their given system. I just don't understand the reasoning behind it as a design choice. To get 24 ticks of NT, you don't need a tick speed of 0.5s, you need 0.5104999s. That's what throws me off. I don't see the logic behind doing it in that fashion. Why does getting the 13th NT tick put your total duration at 12.47s? It's a very strange design choice that seemingly has no logic behind it.

[Deleted]

For NT, it need less than 1s to refresh it. reaction time is globally half a second (human+latency). But in multi-dot, you want to maximise the duration for less dot's refreshing.
For LB, it could be interesting to maximise the refresh window's time. But in AOE, you want to maximise the number of explosion (minimal duration).

---------- Post added 2013-05-12 at 10:17 AM ----------

It's folly to assume that devs don't talk to players, especially during a beta, when that was made.



There's entirely a DPCT breakpoint though, and that's worth going for. I'm also fairly sure explosion scaling is only at extra ticks, and not intermediate haste points.


I understand why, mechanically, DoT breakpoints aren't perfect. They're rounding to the nearest millisecond between ticks for their given system. I just don't understand the reasoning behind it as a design choice. To get 24 ticks of NT, you don't need a tick speed of 0.5s, you need 0.5104999s. That's what throws me off. I don't see the logic behind doing it in that fashion. Why does getting the 13th NT tick put your total duration at 12.47s? It's a very strange design choice that seemingly has no logic behind it.

check in game by changing your haste and look at the tooltip, duration vary between ~11.5s and ~13.5s. More for LB than NT.

[Zebuh]

Is it worth changing Light of the Cosmos H 0/2 for breath LFR?
I have an average uptime of 40% with Lotc
I'm at 12k haste. I tested it briefly but didnt really like the proc rate.

Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...n/Zebuh/simple

[Kuni Zyrekai]

check in game by changing your haste and look at the tooltip, duration vary between ~11.5s and ~13.5s. More for LB than NT.

Oh I know. I find it bloody odd though, from a design and logic point of view? That's what's really getting me. I don't see a logical point for it to be outside of 12s. I know it is, but I don't understand why, from the back end of the game. Like for again the 13th tick of NT. Why not 13ticks/12s=1.08333%? I don't understand the reasoning for the current system, nor do I see logic behind how it is.

[Deleted]

The reason people care about the breakpoints is the Dpet, not the dps. you might increase dps on 1 spell, but loose gcd's casting it more often, for the same total amount of damage between breakpoints.

Dps only matters when looking at over all dmg/dps. The way to increase that is by casting the highest Dpet spell available every Gcd.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Nevermind. Found the reasoning behind the duration differences. Actually makes a bit of sense. + half of current hasted tick interval is the point where ticks are added.

Why the hell didn't I look at the equations on that spreadsheet earlier?

Firstly, it looks like it is 425, and 425.19 is both a mistake in wowpedia and an unhappy coincidence when I tried to verify it by calculating it from the haste rating I was at, at the time. Maybe someone else will try their hand at decoding the equation spacing on the rounding/player benefit portion of the spreadsheet before I get on tomorrow.

[Deleted]

Oh I know. I find it bloody odd though, from a design and logic point of view? That's what's really getting me. I don't see a logical point for it to be outside of 12s. I know it is, but I don't understand why, from the back end of the game. Like for again the 13th tick of NT. Why not 13ticks/12s=1.08333%? I don't understand the reasoning for the current system, nor do I see logic behind how it is.

they have to way to deal with it :
1-- making a fix duration and adding DOT past some breakpoint.
2-- scaling each DOT with haste and adding a new on if the total duration decrease by the duration of half a tick.
In case one, haste is only good for each new tick.
In case 2, haste is always good. And I think that it's more easy to code. I think it's the same function that calculate all haste scaling : spell, channel and DoT.

I'm pretty sure that from the game's code point of view, a channel spell and a dot are the same, it's just that one is actively cast and the other isn't.

Yes, it would have been easier if DoT have breakpoint, so it could have result in cap to x% because the next one isn't obtainable.

---------- Post added 2013-05-12 at 04:30 PM ----------

Oh, and making Haste scaling to simply increase damage (like some have suggest) would result only result in out of control damage and PvP whine.