Universal Healthcare

[Khoranth]

Not everyone has to work for society to prosper.

I didn't say it needs them to work to prosper, I said their lives are less valuable because they are young, healthy, have no mental problems, and yet they intend to never ever work their entire lives.

US society works fine, even with people like this, since foreigners are more than happy to come fill out the millions of jobs these people refuse to do. It's a big joke, these worthless Americans complain there are no jobs, and yet millions and millions of foreigners come find work here. These Americans who claim there are no jobs just want a job in an air conditioned office, with no responsibility, where they just sit around and play on facebook all day.

[Elim Garak]

I don't see how their lives are any less valuable.

[Deleted]

So basically, after reading all 11 pages of this thread, it is quite apparent that American right wing/anarchic notions are upheld by people who have no idea of how economics, politics, taxation and the financial system actually work.

I suggest studying development economics, as a lot of the slightly more complex theories that are being used here to prove the point that universal healthcare is not only less expensive but actually more beneficial to society and the economy than privatised healthcare is going above a lot of heads.

Maybe if we put it in simple terms:
- 5 healthy people are more productive (can make more things) than 3 healthy and 2 sick people.
- If there are 5 healthy people, 5 different things can be produced (can be made) and swapped between them. If only 3 people are healthy, only 3 things can be produced.

Passing on to the morality debate:
- If you refuse to pay taxes for healthcare under the notion that you should not be forced to pay for other people, think of the logical extension:
1) I refuse to pay for prisons because I have never been in one.
2) I refuse to pay for a national defence force because I do not see the need to be defended, after-all no-one has tried to invade us lately.
3) Why should I pay for police when I have never been a victim of crime?
etc.

[Catta]

So basically, after reading all 11 pages of this thread, it is quite apparent that American right wing/anarchic notions are upheld by people who have no idea of how economics, politics, taxation and the financial system actually work.

I watched the Bill O'Reilly vs Jon Stewart debate and Stewart said something along the lines of "We are all in favor of the redistribution of wealth - we are just arguing the shade of red" - O'Reilly wouldnt accept that things like social security was redistribution of wealth though. Either they are anarchistic or else there is some serious cognitive dissonance...

[Orlong]

Why do you make such stupid and ignorant statements when you clearly don't know what you're talking about? Medicine and Dentistry are the top 2 Highest paid graduate jobs in the UK, and the courses are also ridiculously competitive to get onto.

Well in the US, the free healthcare currently given by the government (Medicaid and Medicare) the doctors arent paid what their services cost, so the net result is those doctors are either retiring early or not accepting any more medicare/medicaid patients because the government says how much they will pay the doctor, they dont pay what the doctor charges.

[Grizzly Willy]

Well in the US, the free healthcare currently given by the government (Medicaid and Medicare) the doctors arent paid what their services cost, so the net result is those doctors are either retiring early or not accepting any more medicare/medicaid patients because the government says how much they will pay the doctor, they dont pay what the doctor charges.

Our services aren't comparable to European UHS's.

[Cthulhu 2020]

The quality of universal health care will depend on how well its implemented. Going to half ass it? You're going to get half assed health care. Lots of countries do universal health care right and it's amazing. Others go half way on a lot of things and they get what they pay for.

People who say that they'll spend more in taxes for universal health care don't know what they're talking about and have eaten the right's bullshit for too long. If you get health insurance via your work, the cost of that insurance is already taken out of your pay. It may not appear on any of your records anywhere or even be stated as being taken out of your pay, but trust me, you're making less money if you get health insurance from your work. If health care were suddenly universal, you'd be making more money, and it'd be a lot more than the taxes you'd shell out for universal health care.

[Matchu]

I don't understand how a country can call itself civilised when it doesn't look after the health of its citizens.

Poor? A certain profile? Sorry, no healthcare for you. A ridiculous system.

[Beefsquatch]

This thread is a painful reminder of how selfish and greedy our species really is.

[Spectral]

Poor? A certain profile? Sorry, no healthcare for you. A ridiculous system.

Medicaid covers the poor (although your mileage may vary by state); it's the lower middle class that are truly fucked.

There's no institutional policy to discriminate against any certain profile in health care.

[Masark]

I've only read the first 5 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone brought this up already. Before I get to my point, My position on universal health care is the "I'm ok with it as long as I can opt out of the tax in favor of my own provider." Here's why. America has a problem that the rest of the world doesn't, and that's obesity.

Currently 33% of the U.S. is obese and an additional 35% are overweight, but not considered obese.

I am a firm believer in that obesity is a lifestyle choice, not a genetic disorder, and In 2008 the medical costs associated with obesity was 147 billion.

It's a real problem in the U.S. that would absolutely effect the costs of universal healthcare, a cost I'm not willing to pay based on someone's lifestyle choice. I would be happy to pay a small tax on universal healthcare that helped people with problems that were no fault of their own. But I won't be paying for someone's hospital bills when they get heart disease because they are obese.

My source for the above information is the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention website, but I apparently don't have enough posts to post links.

google "obesity rates" and/or "overweight statistics" if you want to see the data yourself.

Obesity is not an America-only problem. Canada also has a high obesity rate and isn't that far behind the USA, especially here in Saskatchewan.

Get off the "MUST PUNISH BAD PEOPLE!" kick.

[Zhangfei]

"The truest judge of society is how they treat the lowest members."

America is not a First World country in a real sense - it has the death penalty (lulz) and no universal healthcare. And even their private healthcare isn't that good.

Huge waste of money to pad out insurance companies.

[anyaka21]

I've only read the first 5 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone brought this up already. Before I get to my point, My position on universal health care is the "I'm ok with it as long as I can opt out of the tax in favor of my own provider." Here's why. America has a problem that the rest of the world doesn't, and that's obesity.

Currently 33% of the U.S. is obese and an additional 35% are overweight, but not considered obese.

I am a firm believer in that obesity is a lifestyle choice, not a genetic disorder, and In 2008 the medical costs associated with obesity was 147 billion.

It's a real problem in the U.S. that would absolutely effect the costs of universal healthcare, a cost I'm not willing to pay based on someone's lifestyle choice. I would be happy to pay a small tax on universal healthcare that helped people with problems that were no fault of their own. But I won't be paying for someone's hospital bills when they get heart disease because they are obese.

My source for the above information is the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention website, but I apparently don't have enough posts to post links.

google "obesity rates" and/or "overweight statistics" if you want to see the data yourself.

The problem with this statement is that you already are paying for "lifestyle choice". How do you think insurance company premiums, etc..., are configured. Your rates will rise, most likely more because of increasing obesity issues.

If the US would make a stand and scrap the whole health insurance industry, then everyone's health care would be based on their income level and as thus, rates wouldn't be tied to "lifestyle choices." And as thus, you wouldn't be paying for them.

But face the facts, you are paying for it through your insurance right now

[Elegiac]

"The truest judge of society is how they treat the lowest members."

America is not a First World country in a real sense - it has the death penalty (lulz) and no universal healthcare. And even their private healthcare isn't that good.

Huge waste of money to pad out insurance companies.

What's wrong with the dealth penalty?

[Ynna]

What's wrong with the death penalty?

If you'd like to discuss that, I suggest you move it to a different thread, since it will probably be a big debate.

[Deleted]

I am an American, and as such I've grown up always hearing from the media/politicians/private insurance companies that Universal Healthcare is a bad thing. So I am curious to hear from those covered by it, if you get sick with the common cold what do you do? Do you have to wait for a doctor? What does it cost to fill a prescription? Also if someone needs something major done like a surgery or organ transplant what happens? I've always been told you may end up waiting for surgery until its to late. Just curious about how it works, I know you pay higher taxes for the system but here if we don't have health coverage through work or somewhere else then you pay a heck of a lot more for health care than you would pay in higher taxes.

Ofcourse a political lobby says something that doesn't profit it is bad.
But healthcare is a human right, and in your country, people are denied it whilst your leaders speak of freedom and rights for all.

[Catta]

"The truest judge of society is how they treat the lowest members."

America is not a First World country in a real sense - it has the death penalty (lulz) and no universal healthcare. And even their private healthcare isn't that good.

Huge waste of money to pad out insurance companies.

Jon Stewart used that quote in the debate he had with O'Reilly. O'Reilly got mad... said he insulted everyone.

[Zhangfei]

What's wrong with the dealth penalty?

If your society values human life, it doesn't give that power to their government to dispose of at will.

[Themius]

Medicaid covers the poor (although your mileage may vary by state); it's the lower middle class that are truly fucked.

There's no institutional policy to discriminate against any certain profile in health care.

Medicaid doesn't cover the poor... it covers the poor in certain situations, the rest of the poor are fucked.

[Mnevis]

"The truest judge of society is how they treat the lowest members."

Jon Stewart used that quote in the debate he had with O'Reilly. O'Reilly got mad... said he insulted everyone.

In O'Reilly's defense, what Stewart said was something like "A society is only as strong as its weakest links", which is sort of the same sentiment, but less objectively true and more belittling to those who are personally stronger than the weakest links. A rich dude might be really into supporting inner-city clinics or something, he's not all that personally offended by the first statement, but if you tell him that the society of which he's a member is exactly as strong as the homeless shopping cart lady, he has good reason to call you on that.

I thought the best bit about healthcare in the Rumble was O'Reilly saying that the reason he believed that the US could handle a standing military (the most powerful military in the history of mankind) but not an efficient national health service was tradition, and Jon's epic facepalm.