[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Kyanion]

They're proving they can miss deadlines, have an indefinite release schedule, and monetize in-game purchases before the game has been released. Is this the space game fans are waiting for too? Ask yourself this.

Well at least it is the game he was waiting for considering how much he’s tossed at it. But kenn loves to speak for ‘all’ space game fans so he’s confused.

[kenn9530]

If you're chasing every tech trend and aren't locking down tech so you know exactly what you're working with, you're in for a very, very, very bad time. So if they're doing this as you say, and I have no clue if they even are, it sounds like Chris Roberts is still as awful as a project manager as he was decades ago.

The leap to direct x 12 was pretty much essential especially for star citizen, they have made thier own version gen 12 system, just like when they upgraded to the 64 bit system which was required also, they are not chasing every tech, they are using tech that is essential to make the game work as best possible.

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Then you admit that they planned poorly and were marred by their own poor planning, constantly having to grow the team and chase better technology in order to meet their raised standards as the income kept rolling in.

You understand that no other game development company works in this way, right? That the growing scope of the game being concurrent with cash income for a game-in-development generally doesn't happen for most-to-all other game companies, and that it's usually the other way around where they start with a budget and it only decreases as time passes, not increases as it has had for this particular game and company.

What other game and company has shared a similar development cycle as Star Citizen? I stand by my statement that it's as unique as it gets in the industry, and no other game is comparable to Star Citizen where they can take a decade of development with absolutely zero accountability to any publishers or investors, since the majority of their money is literally generated through crowd funding.

You cant plan for tech upgrades in an ever evolving field, there is a great deal of flexablility required during a games development and choices have to be made to take advantage of techs that will make the game better. Its not for you to decide if its poor planning/management as the opinion you have on how the company is run doesnt matter in the slightest.

A game like star citizen has never been done before, you cant just set out a plan and expect everything to go as you think it will, what you seem to expect is the impossible, all other game companies do things behind closed doors so you dont see all the mistakes other companies make during a games development.

[Kyanion]

Its not for you to decide if its poor planning/management as the opinion you have on how the company is run doesnt matter in the slightest.

Lol oh brother. It is easy to call out a company for missing deadlines, blowing past dates they put on the game and watching them waste money. It is funny as hell actually.

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A game like star citizen has never been done before

I mean if this is how you are supposed to do it I guess we can expect the release in 2027?

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all other game companies do things behind closed doors so you dont see all the mistakes other companies make during a games development.

Don't act like CIG are transparent on what they are doing, many things just drop off the timelines or get delayed and pushed back. Many without being addressed.

[Calfredd]

A game like star citizen has never been done before

Gee, I wonder why?

[Edge-]

The leap to direct x 12 was pretty much essential especially for star citizen, they have made thier own version gen 12 system, just like when they upgraded to the 64 bit system which was required also, they are not chasing every tech, they are using tech that is essential to make the game work as best possible.

DX12 was deployed in 2015, so it was still fairly early in development. 64 bit clients aren't remotely new in any way, shape or form and should have been scoped out as the minimum from the get-go given what they wanted to design. Last I heard the update from DX11 wasn't a huge time sink, and they should have been working with that to begin with given that DX9 is old and outdated as fuck DX10 isn't too commonly used.

Again, if you're doing major tech additions midway through development, that's generally poor project management. Trying to design a project around continually changing tech is a nightmare, and there's a reason that most developers lock in their tech once full production starts.

So either you're, again, completely making stuff up to justify the delays and are now backing away as it's pointed out how bad of an idea this is, or this is just more bad project management. Period.

[Triceron]

You cant plan for tech upgrades in an ever evolving field

You can and you do. You do this by choosing the engine and sticking with it and not planning a game that takes 10+ years to develop while iterating every level and catching up to latest technology.

If the technology expands beyond the scope, you don't just abandon what you have, you iterate with what you have. Look at World of Warcraft, it didn't abandon its original engine to have its current graphics. They're not the best-of-the-best, but it absolutely works as moden day graphics with a stylized look, and they're even able to adapt modern tech like PBR shaders if we look at how the WoW engine was reverse-adapted for Reforged.

And all of this iteration can happen during development of a live released game, not just extended into an indefinite alpha. You plan by working with what you have and taking it into a released product, and from there you can choose to port what you have to another engine for any future major patch or sequel. That's how its normally done. For games that change engines mid-way through production, there's a shit ton of wasted time and resources that all lead back to poor planning and management.

Effectively, there was no real plan. They just had a goal of using top tier technology without any consideration for the work they're doing and what long-term sustainability there is in the engine they chose. Either the choice of technology was too limited, or the scope and design of the game was too big. It boils down to poor management of resources.

[kenn9530]

You can and you do. You do this by choosing the engine and sticking with it and not planning a game that takes 10+ years to develop while iterating every level and catching up to latest technology.

If the technology expands beyond the scope, you don't just abandon what you have, you iterate with what you have. Look at World of Warcraft, it didn't abandon its original engine to have its current graphics. They're not the best-of-the-best, but it absolutely works as moden day graphics with a stylized look, and they're even able to adapt modern tech like PBR shaders if we look at how the WoW engine was reverse-adapted for Reforged.

And all of this iteration can happen during development of a live released game, not just extended into an indefinite alpha. You plan by working with what you have and taking it into a released product, and from there you can choose to port what you have to another engine for any future major patch or sequel. That's how its normally done. For games that change engines mid-way through production, there's a shit ton of wasted time and resources that all lead back to poor planning and management.

Effectively, there was no real plan. They just had a goal of using top tier technology without any consideration for the work they're doing and what long-term sustainability there is in the engine they chose. Either the choice of technology was too limited, or the scope and design of the game was too big. It boils down to poor management of resources.

All you have is your opinion and thats fine but done spout of complete nonsense just to try and prove your point, non of us know what goes on in CiG as a company so we dont know what they planned for to develop the game.

The fact is Chris has stated many times that he will not comprimise on the game and make it the way he wants to, its his game he can make it any way he wants to, star citizen will take as much time as it needs to be developed, its impossible to be made any faster than it currently is.

[MrAnderson]

They had 300+ million from the kickstarter since 2012. Why did it take 3 years for them to start full development with enough staff? It took them 3 years to recruit? That seems like a waste of time to me. What do you think?

This post perfectly encompasses these last pages of posting.

Posters without any actual knowledge about this game and project that think because they've read the clickbait headline of some article they know it all while making blatant errors of judgment and baseless assumptions for the sake of arguing with a stance of superiority while attacking and berating it's supporters.

Meanwhile they've happily gave hundreds of dollars per year to play a game that kept getting more and more basic from a company known for it's toxic work culture and disregard for it's employers.

Funny.

[kenn9530]

DX12 was deployed in 2015, so it was still fairly early in development. 64 bit clients aren't remotely new in any way, shape or form and should have been scoped out as the minimum from the get-go given what they wanted to design. Last I heard the update from DX11 wasn't a huge time sink, and they should have been working with that to begin with given that DX9 is old and outdated as fuck DX10 isn't too commonly used.

Again, if you're doing major tech additions midway through development, that's generally poor project management. Trying to design a project around continually changing tech is a nightmare, and there's a reason that most developers lock in their tech once full production starts.

So either you're, again, completely making stuff up to justify the delays and are now backing away as it's pointed out how bad of an idea this is, or this is just more bad project management. Period.

Most of the tech is things CiG had to make for themselves for the game, most game companies already have most of the tools to develop a game, CiG had to build all the tools, we dont know what goes on behind CiG doors so all this BS about bad project management is just an opinion, its not bad project management if its going the way the CEO wants it to.

[Edge-]

Most of the tech is things CiG had to make for themselves for the game, most game companies already have most of the tools to develop a game, CiG had to build all the tools, we dont know what goes on behind CiG doors so all this BS about bad project management is just an opinion, its not bad project management if its going the way the CEO wants it to.

Except that they licensed CryEngine to use for the game, which they heavily modified, and then licensed LY. So they're hardly building building everything from scratch, they already started with a functional engine to build upon.

Of course the discussion about project management is an opinion, almost everything we're discussing here is opinions. But given Roberts history of poor project management, plus the history of SQ42/SC since inception, it's fairly safe to say that those poor project management skills exist. His biggest problem, as it was decades ago, was an inability to say "No" to himself when he wants something.

It can go the way a CEO wants it and still be bad project management.

[Triceron]

All you have is your opinion

And I've pointed out the same with your argument. What exactly are you arguing when you're spouting out what they're doing? You don't know anything going on in CiG either, yet you've been very clear about when their development 'fully started' and how they're pursuing different technologies, despite having zero insider knowledge and zero game development experience or knowledge of the industry as a whole.

What exactly are you using to refute me? I'm citing stuff that can be found in Wikipedia. I've outlined issues that are documented in numerous gaming articles.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...-for-a-roadmap

"If you can’t build a game in a decade when handed $306M, perhaps you shouldn’t be making a game in the first place. Not, at least, until you’ve got a better idea and an actual plan to deliver the product."

Not even my words, and this is just one example I easily googled up.

[banmebaby]

Holy shit, that post is awesome. Why did the writer recieve a "trolling" flag but Kenn doesn't?

Kinda unfair.

¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

the post you were most recently infracted for was excessive on every count (e.g. abusing the quote system, sealioning, and being overly combative).

Nothing about it mentioned in the rules, fun part is that the post is exactly the opposite of “sealioning”, but hey, who am I to question this shit anyway.

Or 2013! - https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...4#post40753134
Or 2015 actually - https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...8#post47654198
Or 2017! - https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...2#post50772832
Or 2012/13? - https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...5#post51417885

You're just setting arbitrary dates based on whatever seems to fit for the current moment. So yeah, folks are going to point out that the "official start of development" isn't something properly set in stone and that given that it's a moving target per your own posts, that it's a fairly meaningless measure.

Careful my friend, you don’t want to hit that “excessive” mark on “sealioning” or being “overly combative”, you might just get yourself an infraction for trolling too

It is weird he’s had free rein to spout off and constantly move goal posts.

Why shouldn’t he? Sure, it could be trolling or maybe some sort of mental issue, regardless, being full of shit isn’t against the rules, plus, it’s pretty much the source of entertainment in this entire fucking thread, I sure as hell wouldn’t want that gone.

But I’ll tell you guys what’s actually weird, weird is that you can insult and troll other users as much as you want, for as long as you want, IF you make sure to add a pretty ass video related to Star Citizen at the end of the post, like I could just sit here and make a post purely calling you a childish hater who’s not mentally evolved enough to even start comprehending the magnificence that is Star Citizens development while completely ignoring the point behind whatever you posted, slap a fancy sugoi ass video after it:



Throw a short n generic comment about it: “new pwetty 200$ space ship! GET HYPED BOIS!”, and bam, totally legit shit right there.

CP 2077 8-9 years

“It was in 2016 when the Cyberpunk 2077 officially entered pre-production stages as CD Projekt Red began assembling a team. This was right after the last expansion pack for The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt had released, and more manpower within the company was becoming available. Fun fact, the production team for Cyberpunk 2077 eventually grew to dwarf the team for The Witcher 3 by a pretty substantial margin.”

Source: https://gamerjournalist.com/when-did...t-development/

Release date(s):Win, PS4, Stadia, XBO, 10 December 2020, PS5, Xbox Series X/S, 2021

RDR2 8-9 years including PC port

“With story outlines for the game being completed by late 2012, actual development on the title began. Not long into the process, Rockstar came to realize that its initial plan to divide the work amongst a number of different studios was far too cumbersome to organize, so it opted to instead merge all of these teams into one large unit made up of nearly 2000 employees, with a production budget in the 100 million dollar range making it one of the most expensive games in the past decade.”

Source: https://gamerant.com/long-red-dead-r...2-development/

Release date(s):PlayStation 4, Xbox One, October 26, 2018, Microsoft Windows, November 5, 2019, Stadia, November 19, 2019

It’s odd, the way you make excuses to remove time from Star Citizens development, but then turn inside out all those excuses to add time to other video games development, to somehow make it look more acceptable, when supposedly it doesn’t even really matter how long they take, all while ignoring that the actual problem is not really with the time its actually taking, but with the discrepancy of time between how long it’s taking compared to the amount of time that lead-developer stated in multiple occasions that it would take.

Which honestly only leads to one of two conclusions, either Chris Roberts was utterly clueless, about the state of his own project, or how long it actually takes to get shit done when giving away those time windows, or, he deliberately lied about it in order to generate more funding by hyping up the community with it.

What comes out of your own mouth is BS

Ah yes, the “BS”… I also covered that one, didn’t I? How was it again?

if you claiming its BS your the one that needs to actually needs to back up what you say

if you claim something is incorrect you have to prove it first. If you cant be bothered to back up your claim saying something is wrong you dont deserve a response at all.

In other words, people need to back up their own bullshit, unless it’s you, you don’t need to back shit up, it’s others that need to prove it’s bullshit. It’s impressive that this convenient broken logic of yours isn’t just restricted to Star Citizen… you my friend, are an entire fucking circus.

Its not for you to decide if its poor planning/management as the opinion you have on how the company is run doesnt matter in the slightest.

… but it’s up… to you? I don’t get it, a dude takes people money and says he is going to give them a single player game somewhere around 2014, 2021 is ending and still no sign of it… yet it’s not up to them to say the dude has poor planning/management skills, the same dude that had to sell his last project to Microsoft after delaying it so fucking much that he ran out of cash for it… right.

all other game companies do things behind closed doors so you dont see all the mistakes other companies make during a games development.

Yeah, you say that every couple of pages as well, you also keep ignoring that those other game companies usually use their own funds to develop their own games, or that they have investors, and still answer to those investors.

Posters without any actual knowledge about this game and project that think because they've read the clickbait headline of some article they know it all while making blatant errors of judgment and baseless assumptions for the sake of arguing with a stance of superiority while attacking and berating it's supporters.

It’s pretty clear that you don’t care about any of that anyway.

Kenn has being spewing misinformation about the project every fucking page, contradicting himself over and over and not once you stopped to correct him.

Let’s just face it, this is just you being your arrogant self, cherry picking crap while ignoring everything else just to throw in one of those passive-aggressive generalized insults, when all you actual care about is if people are stroking that Dong Citizen or not.

Also imagine that, you of all people shitting on otherS cuz "superiority", hahaha, just hurry up filling that report so you can proudly pat yourself on the back again, you silly goose =)



Infracted.

[Kyanion]

All you have is your opinion and thats fine but done spout of complete nonsense just to try and prove your point, non of us know what goes on in CiG as a company so we dont know what they planned for to develop the game.

The leap to direct x 12 was pretty much essential especially for star citizen, they have made thier own version gen 12 system, just like when they upgraded to the 64 bit system which was required also, they are not chasing every tech, they are using tech that is essential to make the game work as best possible.

Most of the tech is things CiG had to make for themselves for the game, most game companies already have most of the tools to develop a game, CiG had to build all the tools, we dont know what goes on behind CiG doors

No one knows what goes on in CIG as a company yet you'll tell us why they made switches to X and Y thing. Jesus. Which is it man? Why do YOU know the reasons they did X and Y?

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Posters without any actual knowledge about this game and project that think because they've read the clickbait headline of some article they know it all while making blatant errors of judgment and baseless assumptions for the sake of arguing with a stance of superiority while attacking and berating it's supporters.

Meanwhile they've happily gave hundreds of dollars per year to play a game that kept getting more and more basic from a company known for it's toxic work culture and disregard for it's employers.

Funny.

General blanket attack on random posters on this forum. Attack a successful game. Check a box somewhere that you posted on a forum about the game.

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Kenn has being spewing misinformation about the project every fucking page, contradicting himself over and over and not once you stopped to correct him.

I don't get this one either. Kenn is on record over and over and over making up things and proven wrong and yet he just never talks about it. Really weird huh?

[Corvus]

Despite being corrected numerous times on his cp2077 lies, he just ignores it and continues with the same ones.

[Triceron]

This post perfectly encompasses these last pages of posting.

Posters without any actual knowledge about this game and project that think because they've read the clickbait headline of some article they know it all while making blatant errors of judgment and baseless assumptions for the sake of arguing with a stance of superiority while attacking and berating it's supporters.

Meanwhile they've happily gave hundreds of dollars per year to play a game that kept getting more and more basic from a company known for it's toxic work culture and disregard for it's employers.

Funny.

Took me a while to figure you were talking about Blizzard fanboys taking a piss on CiG supporters.

I haven't been subbed to WoW since 2011. I'm incredibly disappointed in Blizzards performance in the last decade, and especially with what they did with Reforged. I've got no love for Blizzard, so really you're projecting here.

I haven't berated any of the Star Citizen supporters. I'm not quite sure why you decided to quote me in your reply when I haven't attacked any supporter at all. Calling out someone for making shit up is not berating, let's be clear.


And you want to talk about toxic work culture?

https://kotaku.com/star-citizen-deve...-to-1846443110

[Henako]

¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

You can't hear it, but I'm standing in front of my desk and clapping at my monitor.

General blanket attack on random posters on this forum.

You raise a good point. I guess it's acceptable to attack posters as long as you're not very specific about it. At least, Andy never seems to get bopped for it.

[Edge-]

Folks, drop the moderation discussion. This is the one and only warning, if you have issues with moderation take it up with supermods or admins, but discussing it in threads is against the rules.

[notaltacc]

Its not for you to decide if its poor planning/management as the opinion you have on how the company is run doesnt matter in the slightest.

everyone knew what chris was like when it came to developing games, he wants to do too much, so if you really put any stock into any release dates then thats on you, i knew when it came up in the kickstarter that the game was going to take way longer than any date put in writing.

You are a very confusing person my friend.

Oh, for those not aware how Chris "was" like when it comes to developing video games:

In 1997, Chris Roberts began work on a vision he had since he first conceived Wing Commander. He wanted to realize a virtual galaxy, whose systems execute their own programs regardless of the players' presence; cities would be bustling with transports and each world's weather changes on its own time. Commodity prices in each star system would fluctuate, according to the activities of the computer controlled traders, who import and export goods. Roberts envisioned thousands of players simultaneously interacting with and influencing this world through a unique and intuitive user interface never seen before in other games. Each player could pursue a quest set up for their character, and join other players to attempt other missions together without needing to exit the game and start a new mode of play. Artificial intelligence would fly the players' spacecraft, letting them concentrate on combat or other tasks. Roberts intended the cutscenes and gameplay visuals to be of equal quality so players would be unable to distinguish between the two.[34][35] By the end of 1997, it was officially announced that Freelancer was in the early stages of a two-and-a-half-year development schedule.[36]

Two years later, the project was displayed at GameStock, an annual showcase to the mass media of Microsoft's games.[37] The media covered the event, focusing on the features promised for this game. There were concerns about the state of the graphics and uncertainties over the promise of a dynamic economy, but gaming site GameSpot gave Roberts and his company, Digital Anvil, the benefit of their doubts.[38] Initially in 1999, Roberts announced the game would be available on the market by fall 2000.[34] However, the project suffered delays and by Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) 2000, Roberts said the earliest release for the game was at the end of 2001.[5]

In June 2000, Microsoft started talks to buy Digital Anvil. Roberts admitted that his team required large sums of money, which only a huge company could provide, to continue developing Freelancer with its "wildly ambitious" features and unpredictable schedule; the project had overshot its original development projection of three years by 18 months. Roberts trusted that Microsoft would not compromise his vision for Freelancer, and was convinced the software giant would not attempt the takeover if it did not believe Freelancer could sell at least 500,000 copies when released.[39] Roberts left the company on completion of the deal, but assumed a creative consultant role on Freelancer until its release.[40] Microsoft instructed Digital Anvil to scale down the ambitions of the project and focus on finishing the game based on what was possible and the team's strengths.[13][19] Features such as the automated flight control, conversations that had different choices of responses, and sub-quests were abandoned.

[kenn9530]

And I've pointed out the same with your argument. What exactly are you arguing when you're spouting out what they're doing? You don't know anything going on in CiG either, yet you've been very clear about when their development 'fully started' and how they're pursuing different technologies, despite having zero insider knowledge and zero game development experience or knowledge of the industry as a whole.

What exactly are you using to refute me? I'm citing stuff that can be found in Wikipedia. I've outlined issues that are documented in numerous gaming articles.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...-for-a-roadmap

"If you can’t build a game in a decade when handed $306M, perhaps you shouldn’t be making a game in the first place. Not, at least, until you’ve got a better idea and an actual plan to deliver the product."

Not even my words, and this is just one example I easily googled up.

Companies have spent 300 million plus for games like cyberpunk and RDR2 and only took slightly less time to develop, and they both were not smooth launches and have taken a fair bit extra time to actually get working right. They have not been handed 300 million, CiG has raised that money steadily over a very long period of time and money alone cant develop a game.

A game cant be developed like star citizen with 11 people when it started can it, its pretty obvious full development cant start on the game until they have all the studios and staff they require, they were only at the 50% capacity of what they currently have in 2015, it just simple common sense to realise that the game needs enough devs to work on all the projects to develop the game.

[Triceron]

Companies have spent 300 million plus for games like cyberpunk and RDR2 and only took slightly less time to develop, and they both were not smooth launches and have taken a fair bit extra time to actually get working right. They have not been handed 300 million, CiG has raised that money steadily over a very long period of time and money alone cant develop a game.

A game cant be developed like star citizen with 11 people when it started can it, its pretty obvious full development cant start on the game until they have all the studios and staff they require, they were only at the 50% capacity of what they currently have in 2015, it just simple common sense to realise that the game needs enough devs to work on all the projects to develop the game.

It's documented on wikipedia how that money is spent though.

Those $300+ million costs are split between development and marketing. Cyberpunk spent ~$175 million in development, while it had a $140 million marketing budget.

So far that split for Star Citizen is $275+ plunged into development while only ~$45 million was used for marketing. And the game is still in alpha with no beta in sight.

For context, the MMO Star Wars: The Old Republic reportedly (based on analyst estimations) used $200+ million in development, and was completed in 3 years time. And overall, it was a financial success
In an earnings call to investors in October 2019, Electronic Arts announced that Star Wars: The Old Republic was closing in on a billion dollars in lifetime revenue, making it a huge financial success based on the reported $200 million development budget.[14]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...mes_to_develop

Look at some of the biggest game releases, and the marketing budget is proportionally equal or greater than development in most cases. Not Star Citizen though, and all the cooks they hired hasn't made the meal come out any faster.

When do you predict the game will actually come out? In another 4-5 years time? How many more millions is required to fuel that you think?


https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/...tizen_the_339/

There have already been concerns about how much of its budget is remaining, because even $339 million won't last forever -- one report showed them blowing through $4 million a month. Yet even though many expected development to fizzle out years ago, it's still coming along, albeit at the usual snail's pace. One can only hope that someday, they'll finally be able to play with their thousand-dollar in-game starship.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vaporware
Vaporware is a product which is announced and/or being developed, but never released, nor ever cancelled. This list documents products which have been labelled as "vaporware".
Star Citizen – initially announced and funded via Kickstarter in 2012, neither the game nor its spinoff Squadron 42 have been released outside an alpha state as of January 2021.[18][19] It is the largest crowdfunded project to date, having raised almost $300 million in backer money.


I mean if your beef was that I'm making these criticisms as pure opinion, then I'll easily throw down sources and articles which aren't merely my opinion.