The new Invocation Change! - Build 16208

[Charge me Doctor]

Just curious to know what they mean by 'full mana' ?

I think it may just be a quality of life change - evocate before the pull instead of having to do it over and over.

The removal of the Rune cooldowns also interests me.

Also, you can use mana gem to get buff again. I hope

[Stache]

Ding ding ding. You'll still be standing still, channeling like a derp every 40 secs anyways. This may shave off 1-2 seconds with a mana gem every so often, and that's it.

And if you die, guess what? NO BUFF FOR U.

I don't think anyone here is expecting the buff to be up all day every day. This change does however allow little tricks here and there to get the 25% damage bonus without having to complete a full evocation.

[Ellsian]

Doesn't apply. Feeling clunky and off doesn't change our DPS output. That is what I am referring to, the actual math behind everything. Yeah some things seem useless, but in the grand scheme of things all that matters is our damage output.

The main complaint about the 3 sec pyro change is that it inputs clunkiness into the pve fire rotation for no reason other than to balance pvp. DPS output was never a real concern, everyone knows DPS would have been adjusted accordingly. In the grand scheme, rotation/gameplay/fun DO matter, and is the biggest complaints on the forums behind the change. It makes no sense to implement such an intrusive cd. Your UI will be telling you "PYROBLAST NOW" but you'll be stuck with "You cant cast that yet" red errors in many of parts of what was an otherwise fluid fire rotation.

[schwarzkopf]

At 100% mana you have a 40 sec +25% spell damage buff (which lasts forever) until you drop below that, and it always refreshes again instantly when you hit 100% mana again.

Well if that is the case, my current arcane rotation can maintain 100% indefinitely, giving me the 60% mastery buff and the 25% invocation buff pretty much permanently. The only reason I ever burned to low mana was to get a bit more dps just before the evocate.

Currently maintain stacks at 6 for the majority of the fight, using scorch to keep the stacks for full blown 60%(mastery)+ 25%(invocation) + 22% x 6 arcane missiles every proc.

Having said that - I think the change is WAY WAY WAY too overpowered relative to the other L90 talents.

[Stache]

The math is simple as sh!t, but fine.

We will mathematically compare Frost and Fire's MPS output on an average cycle (i.e one that can easily occur during the course of a 40 second invoc buff super cycle)

To keep things simple, i will keep haste and mana regen out of it since they are both identical in both scenarios and will cancel each other out.

For Fire

Fireball: 2.25 second cast, 4% mana (1 usage)
Inferno blast: 1.5 second cast (GCD), 2% mana (1 use, crit force)
Pyro: 1.5 sec, free mana
Combust: 1.5 sec, 10% mana

totals: 7.5 second cycle, 15.25% mana spent
Total MPS: ~2% per second


For Frost

Frostbolt: 2 sec cast, 4% mana (1 use)
IL: 1.5 sec cast, 1% mana (2 uses)
FFB: 1.5 sec cast, free mana (1 use)

totals: 6 second cycle, 6.5% mana usage.
Total MPS: ~1% per second


Conclusion: Frost's MPS usage is almost half that of Fire's. This means that Frost will need to spend less time Evocating to reach Max mana than Fire will.
This means Frost has higher DPS uptime than Fire with this change.

This means it is a buff for Frost.



n.b If you need me to do the math that shows Arcane has the highest MPS than all the other specs, then I won't because even an idiot knows that to be true

First off: When you reply to every post as aggressively as you have been, it makes you come off as an idiot. Please try and keep the discussion here on track.

Second: this "math" of yours is extremely over simplified. There are pulls for me as a fire mage when I nearly go OOM in my opener due to bad rng and there are also pulls where I'm sitting at 70% mana when I'm refreshing my invocation buff.

[Lagmonster]

In a raid setting:
It changes the pre-pull ritual of running back, getting the food buff, de-equiping your weapon, getting into position, having to complete a full evocate, pre-potting, precasting pyroblast.

While questing:
Now you don't have to constantly evocate when you land before killing a mob!

Can I ask what de-equiping your weapon is doing? Just kind of baffled by that I guess?

[thehordemage]

Probably to prevent his weapon enchant from procing unnecessarily during the pre-pull Evocate, though it also places the proc on cooldown when the weapon is reequipped.

[schwarzkopf]

Can I ask what de-equiping your weapon is doing? Just kind of baffled by that I guess?

Stopping jade spirit procing based upon what he has said.

[Stache]

Can I ask what de-equiping your weapon is doing? Just kind of baffled by that I guess?

Procing a Jade Spirit early is a dps loss. Be unequiping your weapon during the evocate, you can avoid this.

[Kildragon]

n.b If you need me to do the math that shows Arcane has the highest MPS than all the other specs, then I won't because even an idiot knows that to be true

Haven't played my mage in ages, but does AB use 10% of your max mana every cast? Cause it starts at 1.5% base mana, then increases by 125% per stack. So does a 4 stack really take 10%? A complete evocate gives back 60% of mana, so you'd be able to get up to a 4 stack and then cast at maximum 5 more AB's before having to complete a full evocation and reach 100% mana. If that's the case, Arcane has terrible uptime using this talent anyways, considering you need to channel a full evocate at least every 20 seconds.

The main change for Arcane with this would really be that you just need to make sure that before the 40 seconds run out you return to 100% mana. If you do this through 3 partial evocations that are spread out or through one full one doesn't make a difference. Through this change you also don't need to cast evocation at all to get the buff. If there's ever a fight again like H Rag, where you have to move continuously for upwards of 15 seconds your passive regen might bring you back up to 100% anyways, so no need to channel then.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that this is really just a huge QoL change for Arcane. If you get full mana from passive regen while running you still get the buff. If you use mana gems smartly you still get the buff. If there's a fight where you know you have to move a lot, you don't need to plan exactly when you're going to evocate because you don't need to finish the channel anymore. Currently, having to interrupt a channel to move is probably the biggest fuck you the game can throw at you, but with this you can be smart about it and use partial evocates more often and still gain the benefit.

Doesn't seem like a nerf to me at all.

[Aphrel]

i like this change, finally i may have use of my managem :d

[zomgDPS]

There are pulls for me as a fire mage when I nearly go OOM in my opener due to bad rng and there are also pulls where I'm sitting at 70% mana when I'm refreshing my invocation buff.

Do you just realized that you re-enforced my point??

I said Fire is less mana efficient than frost, meaning that Fire will spend more time evocating than frost will on average. Which is precisely what you are reporting as well. This effect is amplified for Arcane, causing the gap between Arcane and the other specs to grow even bigger (read the big thread on the DD forums, even your the stupid MVP that you love so much actually realizes this point).

My math isn't overly simplified. Haste and mana regen cancel each other out since they are both constants in both scenarios. That's logic.

And lastly, I'm not here to baby coddle you. If my words 'hurt your feelings' and make you think I'm being to 'aggresive' then maybe you should grow a pair and learn that if you make threads with retarded claims which you haven't even bothered to think through before you post, you are not entitled to having people be 'nice' to you for your own stupidity.

I will call you out on your bullsh!te. If you have a problem with that, then perhaps you should stop spewing the bullsh!te in the first place.


[Infracted]

[Ellsian]

Is no one concerned about dying --> brez affecting this? You won't be able achieve 100% mana after brez even with a full evocation, so you get no buff.

[zomgDPS]

If you do this through 3 partial evocations that are spread out or through one full one doesn't make a difference.

Are you really not getting the point? Or are you just being facetious?
With this change, Fire and Frost will spending less time evocating hence increasing their DPS uptime. With this change, Arcane will spend MORE time evocating, hence reducing their DPS uptime.

With this change, Arcane will fall further behind the other two specs.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

With this change, Arcane has the very real potential to complete and entire 6second pre-haste evocation and still not receive the buff. Fire and frost have no such fear since they will never be at a mana % point that is lower than a full evocation (in fact, at worse, they will spend 3 seconds pre haste evocating).

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Haven't played my mage in ages...
Doesn't seem like a nerf to me at all.

Yea.. I can see why it doesn't seem like a nerf to you. Obviously the massive amount of experience you have with the spec carries tons of weight in your analysis of the situation.
/rollseyes

[Raugnaut]

With Invocation, Evocate essentially becomes a mana gem on a 10 second cooldown- Whenever you dip below 15%, you just tap it for 1 GCD to get back to full mana, and then resume AB blasting. Generally, I can get about 3 ABs off and 2 AM (If im lucky to get those procs) between each 10 seconds. Thus, with Invocate im generally either around 80-100% mana. However, for 6 seconds every 40 (Or sooner, depending on the fight mechanics, if I can see I have the time now but not later) you have to cast a full Evocate.

With the change, anyone who KNOWS how to use Invocate will never, EVER have to stand for the full 6 seconds to get the buff back.

[Stache]

Do you just realized that you re-enforced my point??

I said Fire is less mana efficient than frost, meaning that Fire will spend more time evocating than frost will on average. Which is precisely what you are reporting as well. This effect is amplified for Arcane, causing the gap between Arcane and the other specs to grow even bigger (read the big thread on the DD forums, even your the stupid MVP that you love so much actually realizes this point).

My math isn't overly simplified. Haste and mana regen cancel each other out since they are both constants in both scenarios. That's logic.

And lastly, I'm not here to baby coddle you. If my words 'hurt your feelings' and make you think I'm being to 'aggresive' then maybe you should grow a pair and learn that if you make threads with retarded claims which you haven't even bothered to think through before you post, you are not entitled to having people be 'nice' to you for your own stupidity.

I will call you out on your bullsh!te. If you have a problem with that, then perhaps you should stop spewing the bullsh!te in the first place.

This change benefits fire and frost more than arcane, however arcane is still benefited. This is not a "nerf" to arcane. It is merely a slight buff to fire and frost and an even slighter buff to arcane.

I'm going to ask one last time for you to please tone down your aggression, it disrupts the flow of this discussion.

[Ellsian]

With Invocation, Evocate essentially becomes a mana gem on a 10 second cooldown- Whenever you dip below 15%, you just tap it for 1 GCD to get back to full mana, and then resume AB blasting. Generally, I can get about 3 ABs off and 2 AM (If im lucky to get those procs) between each 10 seconds. Thus, with Invocate im generally either around 80-100% mana. However, for 6 seconds every 40 (Or sooner, depending on the fight mechanics, if I can see I have the time now but not later) you have to cast a full Evocate.

With the change, anyone who KNOWS how to use Invocate will never, EVER have to stand for the full 6 seconds to get the buff back.

lol, you're right, but that sounds like a horrid way to play!

I can imagine it now...

Fireball, Fireball, Inferno Blast, Pyroblast, EVOCATION FOR 1 SECOND THEN INTERRUPT CHANNEL GO, Fireball, Fireball, Pyroblast, Infernoblast, Pyroblast, Fireball, EVOCATION FOR 1 SECOND THEN INTERRUPT CHANNEL, Fireball Fireball, Inferno Blast, Pyroblast, Fireball, EVOCATION FOR 1 SECOND THEN INTERRUPT CHANNEL!

Dreadful, and that's probably something similar to what's going to be mathed out for the ideal uptime of the buff.

We'll be evocation channeling interrupting maniacs. Oh, old blizz devs who left for Titan.... look how far mage gameplay has fallen We're being reduced to spamming 1-2 second channel evocates between 10 sec rotations.

[zomgDPS]

With Invocation, Evocate essentially becomes a mana gem on a 10 second cooldown- Whenever you dip below 15%, you just tap it for 1 GCD to get back to full mana,

This concept (i.e. using Evoc off CD with Invoc) was tested, both in RAWR and Simcraft and was proved to be sub-optimal play. Check Kavan's post in EJ.

The problem didn't lie with the damage buff. The prob lied with spending 1 gcd every 10 seconds not doing damage.

The problem gets compoundedly worse when you use it as Arcane, since at viably high enough stacks (viable in the sense that you actually do good damage with them) you cannot evocate every 10 seconds since a single AB costs more than a 'tick' of evocate can return.

Basically, you're playing Arcane wrong

[Ellsian]

This concept (i.e. using Evoc off CD with Invoc) was tested, both in RAWR and Simcraft and was proved to be sub-optimal play. Check Kavan's post in EJ.

The problem didn't lie with the damage buff. The prob lied with spending 1 gcd every 10 seconds not doing damage.

But that was only mathed out under the assumption that you had to complete a full 6 second evocation to achieve the buff, right? That's no longer the case with this patch. Even 1 sec of Evocation to achieve 100% mana will refresh your 40 second timer. So I wonder if it would math out optimally now.

[zomgDPS]

This change benefits fire and frost more than arcane, however arcane is still benefited. This is not a "nerf" to arcane. It is merely a slight buff to fire and frost and an even slighter buff to arcane.

And I'm going to ask you one last time to tone down the bullsh!te.

You have not provided a single shred of evidence, logic, data or argument that actually backs up this claim that you keep on making (that this change somehow buffs arcane). Yet you still expect people to eat your words?

No thanks.

---------- Post added 2012-10-26 at 01:36 PM ----------

But that was only mathed out under the assumption that you had to complete a full 6 second evocation to achieve the buff, right?

Actually no. It was a test that was done during a big debate on whether or not Evoc (under Invoc) should have a cooldown at all. What was found was that, contrary to intuition, if you reduced the cooldown to 0, dps would actually go down. As mentioned, the problem was not with the buff, but with DPS uptimes, and in Arcane's case in particular, the problem was with the scaling MPS costs of AB stacks which made the "use Invoc every 10 seconds" an unreliable playstyle.

Now sure, you can still play that way, the same way you can play Arcane always breaking your stacks at 1. But you will be doing very suboptimal dps.