The Problem of GW2 PvE

[Valeron]

I don't understand why people compare GW2 to wow.

If it is an mmo, they will compare it to wow. It doesn't matter what style of game it is, it's inevitable that it will be compared to it. Heck, I bet some folks have even compared EVE Online to wow.

[Durzlla]

If it is an mmo, they will compare it to wow. It doesn't matter what style of game it is, it's inevitable that it will be compared to it. Heck, I bet some folks have even compared EVE Online to wow.

I've seen this done quite a few times actually... EVE had to be the most different game from WoW i've ever seen lol (that's an MMO)

[Fencers]

There are plenty of valid aspects of play and design one can compare within or outside a given genre. Depending on the actual comparison we can even compare differing mediums-- as in a film to a video game.

What you guys are really miffed by [and rightly so] isn't so much an issue of comparison but of expectation.

For example, one can compare the combat of GW2 to Eve or WoW in a number of ways from design to execution. What one can not do is have the expectation of one play system [Eve/WoW] servicing the same goal of design as another [GW2].

It works both ways too... to the chagrin of many a forum warrior. Sometimes the thing you enjoy is faulty. Sometimes people have unrefined tastes or indulge in vulgarity.

[ControlBlue]

Another little quote I found on reddit, this one would fit more into the FotM thread but since this one is now focused on discussing only the dungeon itself and not the whole thing on Ascended gears and vertical progression, might as well drop it here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/c..._2_ama/c77csxm

On topic,

I think it's really Really not that hard to see the similitudes between WoW and GW2 gameplay, tab-targeting, skill bar, cooldowns,... Both game belong to the same genre of gameplay. WoW could easily program a invulnerable dodge and were close to do it with the monk... suddenly, what would have made GW2 gameplay that special? Nothing except the absence of an hard-coded trinity.

Also, as much as you guys might believe it, both games are competing for the same playerbase, despite its lack of subs, GW2 still need people to be active and dropping money in the cash shop,... Or else... they also need to constantly get new players in for the box price to do its job, and those players can only come from one place, at least most of them.

What GW2 need to do is show to the WoW players that their way of doing stuffs is inherently superior to WoW wheter it be PvP or PvE. They did a poor job at it when it cames to PvE, but started rectifying it with the fractals. The PvP will crsuh WoW's as soon as they deliver on the promise making it an esport, and for that they just need to get that spectator mode done, so there is so hope there. The outdoor PvP is infinitely better in GW2, no doubt about it (and by outdoor I mean open-world PvP).

All they need to do now is make the combat less chaotic, confusing, more visceral ( you have to feel it when you use an ability, you must have impactful options, not the equivalent of little bonuses here and there like a 1/4 s daze or 2 sec of Regeneration, its boring.

If they do that, the game will won the WoW players over, the B2P being a strong incentive to make the switch. It is unfortunat that by having such terrible instanced PvE at launch, they gave the perfect excuse for a lot of people to fall back in the trap of sub-based games, but hey...

Also on the whole "hybrids" thing on WoW, I clearly remember that phase in the game history,nand I clearly remember that the people asking for the death of hybrids... wait for it... where the hybrids themselves!! They asked to be able to become dps because they couldnt help but see themselves as mediocre dps INSTEAD of what Rift would call Supports, or simply DPS with potent heals and buffs...

Blizzard did what they wanted, but at the expected cost of forcing them to specialize.

YET, a lot of the utility those hybrids provided is still here, in a less potent form, but yet here. You lost stuffs to gain the ability to DPS properly AND got to keep some of that utility... So yeah...

Boomkins in general always had poor mobility and a pretty dull gameplay compared to a lot of spec, especially because they have to stick to boomkin form. However they are more an exception than the rule, and most of the time, Blizzard compensates by giving them great damage and passive tankiness, unfortunately it tend to make them faceroll easy or terrible.

[Valeron]

I think it's really Really not that hard to see the similitudes between WoW and GW2 gameplay, tab-targeting, skill bar, cooldowns,... Both game belong to the same genre of gameplay. WoW could easily program a invulnerable dodge and were close to do it with the monk... suddenly, what would have made GW2 gameplay that special? Nothing except the absence of an hard-coded trinity.

There are other differences than just the dodge mechanic between the two systems but the rest of your post is good (even though I disagree about the poor pve part).

[Durzlla]

Also on the whole "hybrids" thing on WoW, I clearly remember that phase in the game history,nand I clearly remember that the people asking for the death of hybrids... wait for it... where the hybrids themselves!! They asked to be able to become dps because they couldnt help but see themselves as mediocre dps INSTEAD of what Rift would call Supports, or simply DPS with potent heals and buffs...

Blizzard did what they wanted, but at the expected cost of forcing them to specialize.

YET, a lot of the utility those hybrids provided is still here, in a less potent form, but yet here. You lost stuffs to gain the ability to DPS properly AND got to keep some of that utility... So yeah...

Boomkins in general always had poor mobility and a pretty dull gameplay compared to a lot of spec, especially because they have to stick to boomkin form. However they are more an exception than the rule, and most of the time, Blizzard compensates by giving them great damage and passive tankiness, unfortunately it tend to make them faceroll easy or terrible.

A lot of the people who demanded they wanted damage weren't playing hybrids to be a hybrid (like i was), and i was saying the DPS was boring, which it was, that's why in BC i panzerkinned the shit out of Heroic Modes and was even able to Panzerkin in -some- raids (it was a very fun expansion....) And then in Vanilla (and BC for a bit) i spent a lot of my time giving support heals and you know, not actually dpsing which made it more fun, it's when they abolished it that it became super dull (because i was forced into pure DPS).

Then again my view is heavily biased and i play the Support role (like how it is in Rift) in every single game i've ever been able to play it in.

But that's really off topic, i agree with a VAST majority of the rest of your post, however there are quite a few differences in play style other than role, and the PvE isn't bad, hell i enjoy it a lot more then WoW. HOWEVER, it's bad for achieving the goal of stealing the WoW players, but that's where the fractals comes in!!

[Fencers]

Inclusion of dodge/mobility emphasis adds different situational depth not possible in Rift or WoW due to how the mechanics of classes behave in those games. But that isn't expressly tied to the model of Rift or WoW actually-- just to like their respective designers preference for a certain style.

Like making it so a mage's fireball does not break cast on move is possible if Blizzard or Trion so desired. That "limitation" is not inherent of not including a role trinity, stat based combat, etc. It's actually like... a flavor decision.

For example, a Marksman casting Strafe isn't any different than Paragon's Flurry or Stormcaller's Electrocute. The difference of firing an arrow, lightning bolt or furious rain of blows is nonexistent in terms of numbers. They are only dressed differently so that it doesn't seem all the same thing. Flavor, variety in perception and execution.

But do the dice roll different because you are firing an arrow instead of a fireball? Not all.

It's an illusion players buy into. Nothing more.

[kakihara]

In the end gw2 combat is like playing a hunter in wow soloing stuff after your pet gets killed and u have to run like hell + 2 little dodge rolls which could be easily just a generic wow defensive skills with a little animation.
i cant understand how someone really thinks the combat system is any different. just because u have to run away all the time doesnt mean its somethin different.
in wow im playing a fury warrior and i like to solo old stuff for transmog gear or just the challenge itself. when im close to dieing i use heroic leap and run away as far as i can to let second wind heal me to 35% again. how is that different to dodging in gw2? i think raiding would even feel like gw2 if ud just go in there with 25 hunters.
i was really excited that arenanet would try something different but as far as i think they failed because they made promisses they just couldnt keep. best example is with those events. i remember things like unique and that they change the world u play in. even wow phasing feels better then those endless and mindless zerg events which repeat itself every 3 minutes...

[Jibjub]

That's my biggest issue with GW2 combat ... it is exhausting but still not incredibly skillful (granted I am not 40+ in FotM or anything). I can kite and dodge and never take damage but I get really tired of it fast because I do it for every_single_mob. Sometimes when leveling I just want to stand there and bash things. Leveling is more for learning a class and story anyway ... they should have just sprinkled really challenging mobs throughout for certain quests ... it's hard to feel like a bad ass when you are running in circles for 40 seconds while trying to kill a jungle grub. One of WoW's design rules is "make every class feel OP" and I think it is a good one. This is an MMO and unless Anet went all out and made it like a shooter with real cross-hair aiming and headshots, etc ... then everyday combat just feels like a hassle and once you killed one you've killed them ... it just takes way too long and I can't eat a sandwich while doing it.

The challenge should come from team play events (dungeons and bosses and pvp).

---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 10:16 PM ----------

The combat was really fun while leveling for about 30 levels and then I realized I had 50 more to go of the same kiting and dodging and I went UGH ... and then I thought about alts.

Had they made the level cap 40 ... with a lot of that coming from personal story and then you had the whole wide world to explore on your own after that ... I think I personally would have been a lot happier.

[Valeron]

There are other small things that separate the combat as well. Not only with the movement and dodge but that you can hit multiple opponents depending on your weapon length and where the opponents are (like AoC in that respect). Also with other people around you have combos which should add some complexity (I do wish ArenaNet would add and emphasis this mechanic, would really add to the team work aspect).

I do agree that the more action oriented combat can be a bit more exhausting. I feel the same way about most action games such as Vindictus and Tera as well.

[Deleted]

Must say that latest dungeon is ALOT better than the one came with the release. Same as I felt in wow

[ControlBlue]

Also with other people around you have combos which should add some complexity (I do wish ArenaNet would add and emphasis this mechanic, would really add to the team work aspect).

They really need to add way more emphasis on this, because from what have I seen that combo system ended up being very lacking. People are using it, but combos most of the time feel like random occurrences instead of coordinated actions.

Also, the problem of this whole kiting/dodging philosophy is that, how come the mob is able to do so much damage to you and you, you are forced into avoiding all of their blows if you want to survive. This kinda makes you feel powerless... Being able to stand face to face with your enemy is important for a lot of RPG tropes (Warriors!!), this emphasis on running away and kiting need to be toned down a bit,

That coupled with a fixed aggro system, one that would be smarter than WoW's this-guy-has-more-threat-generating-abilities-lets-attack-him, would give the right feel to the PvE I think. Dodges would still be important for really, really powerful attacks, them being an option and offering more diversity in the gameplay while not invalidating face-to-face combat, instead of them being mandatory.

For the aggro system, their idea of range being an important factor is a great start (if it didn't felt so random sometimes), but it need to take into account what players are doing a LOT more. The mob should realize that a DPS is pushing it and react, in GW2 the guy who want to be in big armor and protect people, he can actually do some good damage, and since he is right there in your face, the mob has to deal with him first, but if he notices that the ranged are getting dangerous, he switch targets.

They would have to find something to handle the case of pure DPS melee, maybe by giving them more control capabilities through their traits, so that they can stop the mob right there if the mob happens to want to bash their heads... Or they could make the aggro generation dependent on the orientation toward the mob, if you strike from the back and sides, you generate a lot less aggro for the same damage than the guy in big armor who position himself in front of the mob during the whole fight.
This would make it easy to steal aggro if the guy in armor is getting really low and can't pop his self-heal, he would just have to get away from the mob, and have you get and stay in front of the mob generating a lot more aggro while the other guy would lose plenty of it because of the distance.

Adding some random triggers like the mob suddenly hating heals or getting fixated on anything striking it in the back after a certain time would avoid making it as artificial as WoW's threat system.

But, yeah, handling squishy melee DPS would probably be the delicate part with a system like this...

Just a way I could see them doing it.

[Karizee]

They really need to add way more emphasis on this, because from what have I seen that combo system ended up being very lacking. People are using it, but combos most of the time feel like random occurrences instead of coordinated actions.

I think it would only feel random if you were playing ......randomly?

Go to any target dummy, lay down any of your fields (hint: it's on the tooltip) then drop a finisher on it (hint: also on your tooltip). Look at the damage. Now try just shooting off a finisher without the field. See the difference?

Now try working with your mates with their fields and finishers. It's a huge difference - the difference between a quick, painless dungeon run and one that feels like the boss takes forever to die.

You're welcome


PS - Here's a good tool for combo fields and finishers.
http://mastodonte.fr/outils/tool-combo#en

[Durzlla]

I think it would only feel random if you were playing ......randomly?

Go to any target dummy, lay down any of your fields (hint: it's on the tooltip) then drop a finisher on it (hint: also on your tooltip). Look at the damage. Now try just shooting off a finisher without the field. See the difference?

Now try working with your mates with their fields and finishers. It's a huge difference - the difference between a quick, painless dungeon run and one that feels like the boss takes forever to die.

You're welcome


PS - Here's a good tool for combo fields and finishers.
http://mastodonte.fr/outils/tool-combo#en

I always wish i had more blast finishers.... but none of them are on the profs i like to play (ranger and mesmer, granted ranger has -one- but i have no control over it, and the pet that uses it is bugged and will not use it currently), regardless, at least i can do projectile, whirl, and leaps, oh how i love my frost aura lol chill the fuck out of EVERYTHING near me with my greatsword =D!

---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 08:30 AM ----------

They really need to add way more emphasis on this, because from what have I seen that combo system ended up being very lacking. People are using it, but combos most of the time feel like random occurrences instead of coordinated actions.

Also, the problem of this whole kiting/dodging philosophy is that, how come the mob is able to do so much damage to you and you, you are forced into avoiding all of their blows if you want to survive. This kinda makes you feel powerless... Being able to stand face to face with your enemy is important for a lot of RPG tropes (Warriors!!), this emphasis on running away and kiting need to be toned down a bit,

That coupled with a fixed aggro system, one that would be smarter than WoW's this-guy-has-more-threat-generating-abilities-lets-attack-him, would give the right feel to the PvE I think. Dodges would still be important for really, really powerful attacks, them being an option and offering more diversity in the gameplay while not invalidating face-to-face combat, instead of them being mandatory.

For the aggro system, their idea of range being an important factor is a great start (if it didn't felt so random sometimes), but it need to take into account what players are doing a LOT more. The mob should realize that a DPS is pushing it and react, in GW2 the guy who want to be in big armor and protect people, he can actually do some good damage, and since he is right there in your face, the mob has to deal with him first, but if he notices that the ranged are getting dangerous, he switch targets.

They would have to find something to handle the case of pure DPS melee, maybe by giving them more control capabilities through their traits, so that they can stop the mob right there if the mob happens to want to bash their heads... Or they could make the aggro generation dependent on the orientation toward the mob, if you strike from the back and sides, you generate a lot less aggro for the same damage than the guy in big armor who position himself in front of the mob during the whole fight.
This would make it easy to steal aggro if the guy in armor is getting really low and can't pop his self-heal, he would just have to get away from the mob, and have you get and stay in front of the mob generating a lot more aggro while the other guy would lose plenty of it because of the distance.

Adding some random triggers like the mob suddenly hating heals or getting fixated on anything striking it in the back after a certain time would avoid making it as artificial as WoW's threat system.

But, yeah, handling squishy melee DPS would probably be the delicate part with a system like this...

Just a way I could see them doing it.

Idk about you... but i'm a ranger and i don't kite things around i charge right into the fray (by fray i mean idc how many people are fighting there i swoop in and start cleaving) and i just stay up in their face like the whole time, sure sometimes i need to dodge roll out to avoid an attack, but that's usually not for very long before i'm swooping back in to finish the job! My friend does the same thing on his dagger/pistol thief, and my other friend does the same thing on his necromancer (dagger/dagger axe/warhorn) i'm pretty sure if a ranger, thief, and necro can stand toe to toe with mobs and not have to kite your platemail wearing ass warrior can do the same, hell i have grouped with SEVERAL warriors that just stand up there with me and my friends, my guild leader being one of them.

Granted i also see a lot of warriors who cower at the mere thought of being in melee ranger so they stand in the back with a Longbow + Rifle and tell us that we need to kite the mobs instead, which is just slow and boring...

Btw, i fail to see what's WRONG with the current agro system, there's a number of things for ALMOST EVERY mob that piss it off such as, being close, having a low amount of health, being downed, doing a lot of damage, you have your back turned to them etc. There are also special agro tables for other mobs to make it so you CAN'T do the same thing in every instance to "tank". I know there's some ghosts in AC that will aim for things that have high health in close range (my god do they tear high healthed guys a new one lol), however if they can find a squishy caster at range, they will stick to them like glue until either that ghost dies or their target is dead. Then there are some NPCs that focus on you depending on the armor type, i think it was centaurs that my friend found out will go for the plate mail wearers first, then the clothies and lastly the leather wearers (which is weird but kinda understandable because leather wearers are so agile).

Those little things really make it -fun- because you never know how the mobs are going to react, and once you figure out how one mob type reacts with their agro you -could- tank them if you wanted, but to me that'd be boring, and even if you know what one specific mob in one specific area of one specific race aims for, it can change quite easily from one zone to another, or hell even in mob types in the same zone (IE archers could go for the melee and warriors go for the ranged)

EDIT: It turns out my friend found out it was ETINS that go for Plate --> Cloth --> Leather, not centaurs (granted idk what zone he even tested that in or how accurate, but i can say for sure plate pisses them off more then leather or cloth)

[Durzlla]

He's not saying it's completely "random"...he's talking about the fact that with so few skills, and so many of them being fields or finishers, it's kinda hard to NOT "do it right" in regards to combos. You just go through your normal skills on a boss and you'll pop off 100 combos without even trying to do it. Hell, put down any field in a group fight/event and oh my gawd you're suddenly a combo-creating master. =D



No one is saying you can't melee. But the fact is that when any mob that's dangerous enough to care about starts wailing on you, you have to start dodging around, and if it still sticks to you then you're running around kiting and whatnot. Unless you're going to claim you can tank, there's really little to argue about that.

There hasn't been a fight I haven't fought in Melee range, the beauty if the mobs that are dangerous is they squally attack very slow and have a huge tell (easy to see in Melee range) so I just evade it and jump back in, then again my games of choice are hack and slash, so I feel like I have an advantage in GW2 because fightin in Melee is pretty much identical to a hack and slash game.

[Valeron]

The quick, frenzied mobs are the ones you have to watch out for as melee, well after the ranged ones of course. The slow big hitting ones are cake.

[Fencers]

Well, the thing is even using the combo fields is sorta not necessary. Either the fields are too anemic or too short to be of any real consequence. Everything sorta dies all the same regardless of using fields and they don't really change any dynamic of an encounter. They are sorta incidental.

[Valeron]

Well, the thing is even using the combo fields is sorta not necessary. Either the fields are too anemic or too short to be of any real consequence. Everything sorta dies all the same regardless of using fields and they don't really change any dynamic of an encounter. They are sorta incidental.

that's what I mean in that they should make more of an emphasis with them

[Fencers]

I agree.

In beta it seemed you did have to use combo fields properly. At least based on our ACx runs, a lot of encounters seemed to positively reflect teamwork. That kinda didn't really matter in the long run though.

There may have been factors that skewed the emphasis of combo field favorably looking back on beta. I admit that much and can hardly fault the live game for beta experiences. So I guess this is mostly useless/anecdotal but I did like the idea that combo fields were important. Despite the perception being false.

[Fencers]

The game being simple and "unfailable" are not supported or inherent to any design philosophy.

That's just your own feeling the game is "easy".