Top dps spec for rogue?

[eijin]

People keep saying this. Why do you think this? Do you have anything to back you up? Simc is the only thing showing sub not sucking, but if you look at scaling on the t14 normal to t14 heroic simc charts, assassination actually gained more dps with the additional gear. I'm not saying you are wrong, but if you have anything other than your own random guess supporting that, care to elaborate?

mostly historically sub has scaled well. simcraft showed it origionally but now its shying away from that. Im honestly thinking we will see sub becoming viable around T16 (in ICC it was viable, in firelands-DS it was viable)

to hayturr: it depends on what youre attempting to do. im in a high end progression guild, so im going to play the spec that is the most effective at doing my job, which is 99% of the time, doing more dps. if im not as good at playing sub, yet sub is the best dps spec for that fight ill work my butt off to become better at sub (had to do it before). if youre in more of a casual guild, or just looking to have fun, by all means, play what you want. it is a game after all. if the question is "top dps spec" then mut is the answer (and combat in certain fights). because you dont enjoy mutilate dosnt mean it isnt a higher dps spec than sub.

[Sesshou]

mostly historically sub has scaled well. simcraft showed it origionally but now its shying away from that. Im honestly thinking we will see sub becoming viable around T16 (in ICC it was viable, in firelands-DS it was viable)

Uh, I don't know what you are calling viable, but it was crap compared to either assassination or combat in ICC. The massive poison buff and arp cap for combat put those 2 way ahead. It caught up in Cata, but isn't that also because assassination scaled like crap? Assassination is definitely scaling better now than before, and certain parts of sub will now scale worse thanks to removal of crit related stuff. You're just making a random guess that despite things being very different, we will see the same results as Cata which was the only time that really ever happened.

[Deleted]

This is true for some players.

For others the value of burst, knowing sub can do more focused burst damage than any other spec is key, when your are pushing orbs and have precious little time to take them out. knowing for a fact that you have find weakness with vanish, prep, shadomeld, shadowdance, thats 4 orbs down! if you push 5 you have always got shadow blades. all the while you will be cracking out the mutilates and hoping for some passive poisen?.

Most people dont play sub because they are afraid they will suck, most do.

exceptional players wont risk it to push sub but that does not make it bad or unreliable, just means there not many players using sub because it is more demanding than the other specs.

Mut will easily break 5 orbs without CDs in LFR gear *g* But yeah, combat is also very bursty sometimes

[eijin]

Uh, I don't know what you are calling viable, but it was crap compared to either assassination or combat in ICC. The massive poison buff and arp cap for combat put those 2 way ahead. It caught up in Cata, but isn't that also because assassination scaled like crap? Assassination is definitely scaling better now than before, and certain parts of sub will now scale worse thanks to removal of crit related stuff. You're just making a random guess that despite things being very different, we will see the same results as Cata which was the only time that really ever happened.

Hmm, was it ulduar then? there was one point in wrath where sub became "viable". The largest part as i remember was honor amung thieves before they fixed it with an ICD.

Reguardless, im not near saying it as fact. the only thing i was saying as fact was that sub was not currently the top dps spec. sub, to me, still seems like it would scale well with gear (+30% agi and all) and in my memory it has in the past, if i was wrong im wrong. :P

---------- Post added 2012-10-31 at 03:40 PM ----------

Mut will easily break 5 orbs without CDs in LFR gear *g* But yeah, combat is also very bursty sometimes

breaking 5 as mut using only vanish as a CD on HM. 6 (only tried once) was insane however.

[Sesshou]

Reguardless, im not near saying it as fact. the only thing i was saying as fact was that sub was not currently the top dps spec. sub, to me, still seems like it would scale well with gear (+30% agi and all) and in my memory it has in the past, if i was wrong im wrong. :P

But your argument was scaling... you're right that sub was good in early wotlk because of a HAT bug, but that has nothing to do with scaling. Also the fact that sub scales well is irrelevant. The question is does it scale better than assassination to which you haven't offered anything other than "well last time before a bunch of major changes, sub scales better than the other specs."

If orbs on elegon are an issue (I seem to do fine as assassination, we kill 5 for 6 stacks) combat is actually a really good choice. You can have AR up for more than one orb as the last ones spawn really quick plus you can use SB separate from AR for another really strong cd. Combat dps is (just like assassination) clearly over sub for sustained.

[Stede]

Anyone know the offical top dps spec for rogue so far? Someone was saying Sub, but I'm finding that hard to believe.

Raidbots (which analyzes WoL data in the aggregate) has Assassination getting a slight edge over Subtelty on non-cleave fights. Combat is a solid few steps behind both on fights where you can't cleave (for those fights that actually have data on sub - seems very few people play it).

[Sesshou]

Raidbots (which analyzes WoL data in the aggregate) has Assassination getting a slight edge over Subtelty on non-cleave fights. Combat is a solid few steps behind both on fights where you can't cleave.

Go actually look at WoL data for tank and spank (well, as close as you can get). Combat and assassination are both ahead of sub by a substantial amount.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../Combat_Rogue/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ination_Rogue/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ubtlety_Rogue/

Actually, did you even look at raid bots before you posted that crap?
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Gara'...default/#7vvnr
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_...default/#7vvnr
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...default/#7vvnr

Raid bots shows assassination>>combat>sub (outside of cleave fights). Sub is currently garbage. Maybe full bis gear will have it become decent, but no one has that yet.

[rayanne]

You can't trust raidbot's numbers regarding classes that aren't played much. Raidbots can show general trends, but it also is highly influenced by how many people play certain classes. Also, you are linking 25H kills, which doesn't really have a large sample size anyway.

Raidbots is cool any all, but I get nervous about people using the data in ways that don't make sense statistically (not saying poster above doesn't know anything about statistics, just a general thought)

---------- Post added 2012-11-01 at 08:41 PM ----------

MV normal:
combat
mut
mut
mut
mut
depends on strat

MV hardmode:
combat
mutilate
mutilate
either?
mutilate
depends on raid strat (havent tried this on HM)

HoF normal:
mutilate
mutilate
mutilate
combat
combat
depends on strat

You going to take back your mutilate suggestion on garalon?

[Kortiah]

HoF normal:
mutilate
mutilate
mutilate
combat
combat
depends on strat

Mutilate on Garalon are you serious ?
This is the most amazing fight for Combat along with Wind Lord (4th)

[Sesshou]

You can't trust raidbot's numbers regarding classes that aren't played much. Raidbots can show general trends, but it also is highly influenced by how many people play certain classes. Also, you are linking 25H kills, which doesn't really have a large sample size anyway.

Raidbots is cool any all, but I get nervous about people using the data in ways that don't make sense statistically (not saying poster above doesn't know anything about statistics, just a general thought)

I only linked raidbot to show that what he said was entirely false. Raidbot does not show sub as anything but last and it isn't even close (cleave or not).

As for why I look at 25hm despite its lower sample size? Well the 25m is perhaps just a relic of an idea from cata where 10m likely didn't have every single buff (technically still possible now but a lot less likely except maybe spell haste which is useless to us anyway). The 25m population also includes rogues in the most prestigious guilds (I guess paragon is an exception now). That also ties into the reason for looking at hm, you are looking at the top end where players are more likely to know what they are doing and less likely to be producing numbers simple because they suck. So yeah, you could get a crap ton more data from using 10m normal just due to the number of people doing it, but simply having more data points isn't necessarily going to allow you to form a stronger conclusion.

Also, raidbots itself on multiple fights warns that not enough sub data could be collected. But thats why I linked the actual WoL pages. When you have to go beyond the first page of assassination to find an assassination rogue that pulled what the #1 sub rogue pulled, you don't really need to do a bunch of statistics to conclude one is superior to the other do you?

[Vinho]

Subtlety is simming higher than Assassination, though that's only in a vacuum patchwerk style fight; the way a lot of bosses are designed - Assassination with it's Dispatch (Execute) is much MUCH more preferable, Elegon / Spiritbinder specifically come to mind.

Grab yourself any old axe / fist weapon for stone guards though, combat cleave is king for that encounter!

[Deleted]

breaking 5 as mut using only vanish as a CD on HM. 6 (only tried once) was insane however.

Yeah was only talking about NM.

[Hitorii]

Why does no one like Sub? I find myself pulling the most in Sub in most fights.

[eijin]

Mutilate on Garalon are you serious ?
This is the most amazing fight for Combat along with Wind Lord (4th)

depending on stratagy. Watching exodus's live stream they were all switching to the legs, resulting in the legs dieing quickly, leaving little cleave uptime. after doing the fight there is no doubt, this is a combat right.

[GotYoShoes]

Assassination murders Combat. After getting two LFR daggers and switching, my DPS went through the roof.

[Sesshou]

Why does no one like Sub? I find myself pulling the most in Sub in most fights.

I don't mean to sound like I'm trolling, but you're doing it wrong when you aren't sub. There is no fight that at any gear level sub should be beating assassination. I'm not saying you're lying or anything. I've seen people actually do worse with a superior spec because its not familiar, but thats just a personal level thing you have at the moment.

depending on stratagy. Watching exodus's live stream they were all switching to the legs, resulting in the legs dieing quickly, leaving little cleave uptime. after doing the fight there is no doubt, this is a combat right.

They buffed the leg respawn though so cleave time is much better even if you explode them with everyone on them (exodus did it prenerf right?). We actually had it enrage cause they wanted to take 7 healers. If enrage is a problem it is a lot more overall raid dps to keep one up for the rogues.

[rayanne]

It really depends on your group composition. If everyone is blowing up legs ASAP, and you have a lot of bursty dps, you are not going to get much cleave uptime. Especially if say, you are on the back left leg and the next target is the front right one. Just too much running around. You should be given your own leg or two to properly utilize the cleave.

[Vinho]

Why does no one like Sub? I find myself pulling the most in Sub in most fights.

You are likely most familiar with Sub and it's comfortable to you, if you learned assassination and not just gave it a quick little chance, you'd find you'd be pulling even higher dps / dmg done!

[elvorette]

I don't mean to sound like I'm trolling, but you're doing it wrong when you aren't sub. There is no fight that at any gear level sub should be beating assassination. I'm not saying you're lying or anything. I've seen people actually do worse with a superior spec because its not familiar, but thats just a personal level thing you have at the moment.

Ok thats just ridiculous calling the others a superior spec rofl. I top rogue dps with a sub build almost every time in LFR and im still using a 437 dagger... If you learn how to maximize a sub potential then the dps is huge, also the shuriken combo builder is a massive dps increase.

[Sesshou]

Ok thats just ridiculous calling the others a superior spec rofl. I top rogue dps with a sub build almost every time in LFR and im still using a 437 dagger... If you learn how to maximize a sub potential then the dps is huge, also the shuriken combo builder is a massive dps increase.

Throughout the entirity of Dragon Soul I topped LFR each week using a thunderfury main hand as combat. Clearly thunderfury was comparable to my legendary dagger / no'kaled / whatever the hell firelands weapon I had. Oh wait, it isn't.

Both combat and assassination are clearly superior to sub at any gear level. That doesn't mean you can't beat people in LFR. It even doesn't mean you can't beat people in your regular raid. In fact, it also doesn't mean that you personally are capable of doing more dps with another spec. What it does mean is that if both specs are played at the same level, sub loses.