When is the MSV 5% buff active

[Firebert]

How can anyone disagree with that? The only reason would be because the qq'ers want herioc gear now and even higher ilvl. Whenever i see people calling for these nerfs and agreeing with it, all i can think of is because they want better loot easier.

Simply put, people will quit if they can't progress their character further. Blizzard don't want them to quit, so they allow these "QQers" into Heroic such they keep giving their cash to Blizzard.

So come on, why not have a debuff for normal mode only, herioc stays the same...If your answer is that herioc guilds will quit after a few weeks of hitting a roadblock, well, then you dont know herioc guilds. Hey, even if they do, they are like 1% of the playerbase, and most of the herioc guilds wont quit after a roadblock, they will fight to overcome it, i mean, they knew what they were getting into.

Because all Heroic guilds are the same.

And if 1% of the player base is the Heroic raiding core, then all it takes is a fraction more than 1% of the player base to end up stuck on gear progression to warrant Heroic mode nerfs. And that is and INCREDIBLY easy threshold to hit.

So my point is, all this screaming about seeing the content, paying $15 a month can just be translated into "i want better items but im too bad or i dont have the time to get them, so i deserve them for less effort".

These nerfs aren't about content, they're about subs and progression.

[Isheria]

All 3 raids are not even up yet and people ask when the nerfs are coming not sure if serious ...

[Banzhe]

You think they should quit then? Try explaining to Blizzard how that's good for business.

My phrase isn't "fake" (whatever that means). The nerfs aren't for raid exposure any more. And you can't blame Blizzard for targeting the largest audience for their game.

In fact, changing the game for the "everyone" that "thinks they're entitled to everything" is actually good for business.

Your words, not mine.., as I said, there's a difficulty for everyone in the game, WoW is the only game I've ever heard of where people start crying like spoiled little brats if they don't get they're way. (Blizzards fault entirely though, they could have stopped with LFR and left the nerfs out)

Say I was playing 10m, 9 of the players are my mentally retarded friends who couldn't complete the first 3 levels of tetris even with cheat codes, but I refuse to play with others or recruit anyone else (and I refuse to spend time learning my class as do my walnut buddies), because we enjoy brain-farting and so we should have the 2 difficulties lowered for us to complete them.., becaaaaause what?

It's not a question in the end, it's an attempt to make people realise how much of a joke this topic is.., but the above represents an ingame scenario. (As you well know stated by your previous post)

*read your last entry*

I seriously doubt even blizzard is stupid enough to recreate the Ds model as they know what loss in subs they're looking at then, and people won't return for a 3rd run.

[GrieverXIII]

Instances will be nerfed.

Because the vast majority of this community is terrible and bring a high percentage of Blizzard's income, so they need to keep things as easy as possible for them. MoP "Heroics" are a prime example of this.

And this is part of the reason i lost most of my interest for PvE. No point in putting efforts into achieving something that will be nerfed into dust in a few weeks.

[Deleted]

People asking for nerf allrdy should quit playing, they are trash and should't be a part of the community.

[Xeraxis]

People asking for nerf allrdy should quit playing, they are trash and should't be a part of the community.

No one has asked for the nerf, but Blizzard has already confirmed the nerf will happen. Maybe you should direct that rage into something more useful like reading comprehension to save yourself and any one who has to correct you some time.

[Firebert]

Your words, not mine.., as I said, there's a difficulty for everyone in the game, WoW is the only game I've ever heard of where people start crying like spoiled little brats if they don't get they're way.

Say I was playing 10m, 9 of the players are my mentally retarded friends who couldn't complete the first 3 levels of tetris even with cheat codes, but I refuse to play with others or recruit anyone else (and I refuse to spend time learning my class as do my walnut buddies), because we enjoy brain-farting and so we should have the 2 difficulties lowered for us to complete them.., becaaaaause what?

It's not a question in the end, it's an attempt to make people realise how much of a joke this topic is.., but the above represents an ingame scenario. (As you well know stated by your previous post)

Of course. But, when these nine friends of yours composed with thousands or millions of others players across hundreds of realms also are stuck at Normal 0/X (because you forget that LFR is also a difficulty) and make up a substantial part of your subscriber base, it makes business sense to cater for them instead of the other players (because if you don't, then you risk ending up losing more people than if you did, and we're all just numbers at the end of it).

What happens in reality is that your nine friends don't get the raids nerfed for them because they fall at the lowest edge of the bell curve for skill, and Blizzard are catering for the centre mass of skill. Blizzard would rather lose those nine subscriptions (ten including yours) than the hundreds of thousands in the middle of the bell curve for skill.

I don't care either way as Normal isn't accessible enough yet (clearly, it needs a queueing system to bring home to the mass of players what's needed for middle-difficulty raiding), but it just makes me laugh at how the "hardcores" wish to preserve the difficulty for either the triumph, the clique, or the race, only to (fail to) realise that you can turn the buff off, Blizzard needs subscribers, and all races must be stopped if competitors take too long to complete it.

[Sillinoob]

Simply put, people will quit if they can't progress their character further. Blizzard don't want them to quit, so they allow these "QQers" into Heroic such they keep giving their cash to Blizzard.


Because all Heroic guilds are the same.

And if 1% of the player base is the Heroic raiding core, then all it takes is a fraction more than 1% of the player base to end up stuck on gear progression to warrant Heroic mode nerfs. And that is and INCREDIBLY easy threshold to hit.


These nerfs aren't about content, they're about subs and progression.

But im not talking about blizzard's perspective, sub losses etc. I am talking about why players call for nerfs or players like you rationalize these nerfs. From a blizzard business perspective yeh sure, one can understand that, but you also have to recognize that hardcore raiders have a much higher tolerance before they will quit than casuals, hence why i recommend herioc modes not being nerfed. That is just logical.

My post was about the players who call for the nerfs, not blizzard from a business perspective. One can also look at it in another way, when people have something they have not achieved, lets say clearly that last boss or w/e, they will keep playing. When they get to clear everything quicker, they will have nothing left to do. As a practical example in WoW, during TBC content was very inexcessable to the casual, yet even at the end of TBC subs kept growing, look it up. The bads/casuals/scrubs did not quit they game, the game grew. Now, think about Dragonsoul and LFR. THe easiest content has ever been and the most accessable it has ever been, though what happened? The subs did not drop at the start of cata when it was hard, no, it drops by the largest margin EVER when the content was the easiest to complete (LFR). Yes, one can subscribe to the idea that there was too little content, aka dragonsoul lasting 10+ months to the sub drop, but hey, even in WOTLK the drop wasnt nearly as bad when ICC was out for longer.

So, one could logically conclude that the easier and more accessable the content is, the faster players will get bored and quit. Much, much more than the few raiders that leave because of a roadblock.

Your move.

[Firebert]

People asking for nerf allrdy should quit playing, they are trash and should't be a part of the community.

Probably more of them than you.

Maybe you should quit playing, as you're no longer within the target audience for WoW.

[Xothic]

Probably more of them than you.

Maybe you should quit playing, as you're no longer within the target audience for WoW.

Can you stop with the "I am the only person blizzard caters too, everyone else's opinion is therefor invalid", because it seriously isn't true. If blizzard catered purely to shit players, MSV/HoF wouldn't be as hard as they currently are to begin with.

[Zoukan]

Please not this shit again. Normal and heroic modes are fine as they are.

[DakonBlackblade]

To every1 supporting the nerfs to content i have a question for you.

Whould you enjoy this game if heroic content were nerfed to be the same difficulty as lfr is now? Whould the game be more fun if you could clear heroic raids with randoms the first day you ding 90 with your alt?

If yes: Then after that 1-2hours on wedensday you spend getting all the heroic raid gear, what whould you do the other 6days of the week?

If no: Why? Is it, just maybe because "the harder the challenge the sweeter the victory" argument holds some merit afterall?


Myslef ive nothign against nerfs to bosses that are overtuned and becomes a brickwall for players, but i don't like the flat %nerfs across the board at all..
Of the little ive seen of heroic mogushan sofar the bosses seem far form impossible.

A 5% debuf is hardly equal to making heroic content the same as LFR, heck a 50% debuffed heroic would probably still be harder tham LFR. Dont take things completly out of context plz.

[Banzhe]

I don't care either way as Normal isn't accessible enough yet (clearly, it needs a queueing system to bring home to the mass of players what's needed for middle-difficulty raiding), but it just makes me laugh at how the "hardcores" wish to preserve the difficulty for either the triumph, the clique, or the race, only to (fail to) realise that you can turn the buff off, Blizzard needs subscribers, and all races must be stopped if competitors take too long to complete it.

This is where I feel your walking off the reservation entirely..

You should know (At least I hope everyone knows by now), if a que system was implemented for normal, that difficulty is already ruined.., heroic dungeons are a faint glimmer of what they used to be due to the que system!
If it was implemented, normal wouldn't exist any more.., it would merely be another lfr-mode, and the next thing to put on the chopping board would be heroic raiding, and after that they'd have to make challenge-mode raids to fill those two gaps.., do you see where it's going?

You might claim the wast majority is lol-casuals with the iq of a donkey, but I firmly believe that even the average guilds struggling on normal Msv these days would hate to see nerfs implemented at this stage or in the near future due to the fact that gear is making it easier for them progressively, and to overcome something on your own is a much nicer feel then having blizzard take your hand and finish it for you.

The same is to be said about implementing a que system for normal.., in all seriousness (even though I can't take it seriously), I haven't seen anyone else even propose that other then you, and as much as you might think the majority is casuals spending 1-2h per week in the game with no knowledge of anything, I would bet 4 million+ lost subs if something like that was implemented.

As to the essence of normal mode not being accessible enough.. There's guilds out there made entirely by players with families etc etc etc who raid at times that's guaranteed to match yours.
The only thing making it un-accessible is anti-social players who want to be left in they're own little bubble while getting everything that comes from participating in the mmo-section of the game.

[scvd]

I fucking hope never. Anyway, blizzard only does the nerfs on the final tier of content.

Please dont fucking nerf the content blizzard oh god I havent had so much fun doing prog in ages.

Why would affect you if you've cleared it a million times already?

Personally, couldn't give two.

[DakonBlackblade]

This is where I feel your walking off the reservation entirely..

You should know (At least I hope everyone knows by now), if a que system was implemented for normal, that difficulty is already ruined.., heroic dungeons are a faint glimmer of what they used to be due to the que system!
If it was implemented, normal wouldn't exist any more.., it would merely be another lfr-mode, and the next thing to put on the chopping board would be heroic raiding, and after that they'd have to make challenge-mode raids to fill those two gaps.., do you see where it's going?

You might claim the wast majority is lol-casuals with the iq of a donkey, but I firmly believe that even the average guilds struggling on normal Msv these days would hate to see nerfs implemented at this stage or in the near future due to the fact that gear is making it easier for them progressively, and to overcome something on your own is a much nicer feel then having blizzard take your hand and finish it for you.

The same is to be said about implementing a que system for normal.., in all seriousness (even though I can't take it seriously), I haven't seen anyone else even propose that other then you, and as much as you might think the majority is casuals spending 1-2h per week in the game with no knowledge of anything, I would bet 4 million+ lost subs if something like that was implemented.

Ye plz no q system for normals, theres no way to have complex mechanics that require coordination in a random pickup group (and Im not talking PuGs here, you cna very well form good pugs and clear normal and do some heroics), theyd have to dumb down mechanics, kinda like they do in LFR, thats a bad idea.

Why would affect you if you've cleared it a million times already?

Personally, couldn't give two.

To my understanding thats how top players think or should think, I sincerely believe that if you ask someone in Method, Blood Legion or something what they think about the debufs theyll give you this answer. I stated earlier I actualy think they like it cause it makes easier to carry 1 player and sell mounts and gear, heck they might even manage to carry more tham 1 player lol.

[Zoukan]

Want nerfs? Go LFR. Too noob? Do LFR. Want to raid don't got time? Do LFR.

Leave my normal and heroic modes alone.

[Barnabas]

Just sayin, I can't understand what your trying to just say.., might've to do with the excessive lack of grammar.

W/e you were trying to say, your assuming there's a difference in it pending on the place your listed on rankings. (which there isn't) The only people who benefit from a nerfed model of normal / heroic modes, are those who leach the shit out of lfr masked by lack of time.

The only thing I care about is not having to endure another Ds model where your left with nothing at all because blizzard somehow got it into they're heads that they should finish Ds for people who decided to move from lfr to normal, but discovered it was so nerfed that heroic bosses had less hp then lfr-modes, and the dmg was about the same...

3 difficulties = enough for everyone

No I'm saying having the achievement you get with the lack of buff might play a bigger role in recruitment than you think. I disagree with the statement that the buff only exists to promote the folks that do lfr into normal or heroic raiding. There are plenty of guilds out there that actually need that kind of help to finish a tier. There are many different types of guilds in different situations that benefit from the buff as well. The guilds that can't clear before the buff comes always tend to cry the loudest though every tier. That is where the real race is if you aren't top 20 in the world. If you can't clear it this tier. You always have the next one. good luck.

[UnderworldSoup]

Guys, you can't just 'turn off' a %5 buff if you are a progression raider, it defeats the point.

There's a feat of strength for doing the clear (or final boss) without the buff. This applies to all three existing raids - so yes, they will be nerfing them at some point but the feedback was taken and placed into achievements.

[Firebert]

Hardcore raiders have a much higher tolerance before they will quit than casuals, hence why i recommend herioc modes not being nerfed. That is just logical.

Actually, if hardcores are less likely to quit than casuals, then you can nerf the raid and a smaller percentage of hardcore will quit than casuals if you did not nerf the raid. On top of this, as hardcores make up a small percentage of the subscribing populous, it makes even more logical sense to nerf the raid.

(Example: 900k casuals and 100k hardcores, 50% of casuals will quit without nerf, 25% of hardcores will quit with nerf (hardcores are less likely to quit), results in either 550k subs with no nerf or 975k subs with nerf. Obvious choice).

As a practical example in WoW, during TBC content was very inexcessable to the casual, yet even at the end of TBC subs kept growing. The bads/casuals/scrubs did not quit they game, the game grew.

The game being in its infancy as well as raiding becoming far more accessible than the 40-man clusterfarts in Vanilla clearly had nothing to do with it.

Now, think about Dragonsoul and LFR. THe easiest content has ever been and the most accessable it has ever been, though what happened? The subs did not drop at the start of cata when it was hard, no, it drops by the largest margin EVER when the content was the easiest to complete (LFR).

LFR was released JUST before 2012:

Subs were already down from 12m to just over 10m before LFR even hit. I do understand that subs went down to 9.1m.

The game being in its later life as well as the community dividing and blocking players from Normal mode and better clearly had nothing to do with it.

Yes, one can subscribe to the idea that there was too little content, aka dragonsoul lasting 10+ months to the sub drop, but hey, even in WOTLK the drop wasnt nearly as bad when ICC was out for longer.

So, one could logically conclude that the easier and more accessable the content is, the faster players will get bored and quit. Much, much more than the few raiders that leave because of a roadblock.

I have to disagree. I'm pretty sure that the player base has changed such that they are more willing to quit if they can't get what they want (360 and PS3 generation), or that Blizzard are scared of the casual (probably) majority quitting and leaving Blizzard in a much worse position than they are today (or if they shed all the hardcore players).

---------- Post added 2012-11-05 at 02:32 AM ----------

Can you stop with the "I am the only person blizzard caters too, everyone else's opinion is therefor invalid", because it seriously isn't true. If blizzard catered purely to shit players, MSV/HoF wouldn't be as hard as they currently are to begin with.

Blizzard don't cater to me, so can you stop with it, because it seriously isn't true.

As I've already said, Blizzard cater to the middle of the bell curve of skill of players. They may be shit to you, but just be happy that you're on the high end.

[Shpetznaz]

Hopefully not until the next tier is out.