[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[celinamuna]

The issue with Cons is that if you use it on CD (and this guy basically is), you'll get overlapping Consecrations... and Consecration doesn't stack. If he's prioritizing Consecration over Holy Wrath, then he's doing it wrong.

FWIW Wymarc is also 100% right about Holy Prism in 25-mans. It's a great spell in 10s, and a fucking awful choice in 25s. I spent weeks checking efficiency after transitioning from 10 to 25 after progress was over, and I don't recall ever seeing Holy Prism with an overheal percentage of less than 80. It's only ever really good if you use it for the DPS, in which case you need a /targetlasttarget macro to make best use of it.

The point wasn't about that particular usage, more like the notion that cons should be last on the list.

The difference is in usage, i know i can use it as an emergency heal on my self (besides LoH), and most 25m that i know at this point 3 heal most of the fights, so i doubt the overheal is that large.

P.S.
#showtooltip
/cast [@player] Holy Prism

[Deleted]

The point wasn't about that particular usage, more like the notion that cons should be last on the list.

The difference is in usage, i know i can use it as an emergency heal on my self (besides LoH), and most 25m that i know at this point 3 heal most of the fights, so i doubt the overheal is that large.

P.S.
#showtooltip
/cast [@player] Holy Prism

First of all, you can doubt it all you want. I've done the dirty log work and either my guild's healers are gods (to be fair, they are very, very good) or Holy Prism has a spectacularly high overheal percentage even when under-healing fights. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but I can assure you that in this case your opinion is almost certainly in the wrong.

And for the record, your macro doesn't re-target your last target AFAIK, which is a fucking pain in the ass to deal with and the entire reason you want a targetlasttarget macro to begin with when you're self-casting Holy Prism

[celinamuna]

And for the record, your macro doesn't re-target your last target AFAIK, which is a fucking pain in the ass to deal with and the entire reason you want a targetlasttarget macro to begin with when you're self-casting Holy Prism

It also doesn't target you.... it doesn't change your target at all.

Macros that do /cast [%somethinghere%] don't switch targets

Ignoring the fact that i did describe how my usage of HP is different from yours, and is mostly for self healing + aoe dmg on anything that isn't stacked.

[Deleted]

The point wasn't about that particular usage, more like the notion that cons should be last on the list.

Then where should it be? CS and Judge will be above cons cause they generate holy power, even tho CS does shit all damage, AS also generates holy power on proc and just does more damage, especially if it is glyphed as it should be on a ST fight. Holy Wrath just does more damage flat out, especially when attacking under 20% hp and glyphed, even Hammer of Wrath does more damage.

Take 400000 attack power as an example, a half-decent amount if you are not vengeance whoring.
SP = AP/2
Hammer of Wrath: 1747 to 1930 (+ 161% of Spell power)
So: 1747 + 322000 = 323747

Consecration: 914 ( + 8% of Attack power) * 9
So: 914 + 32000 * 9 = 296226

So even the piss-poor excuse we have for an execute does more then consecration in a single button press. Consecration will take higher prio in niche situations where you are moving out of range of the boss and you can dump it behind you as you run off cause you can still HoW/Judge at range but other then that I don't see why it should be prio'd higher?

If I am wrong then I'll admit it I will change my gameplay. I'm not trying to attack you or anything, just would like to know how you reason it is all.

Also if you didnt rebind it yet pressing "Alt" automatically casts everything on yourself if its able to, no need for macro's to cast it on yourself if you dont have it bound already

[celinamuna]

Actually hmm, it might be higher in default priority list.

I know that i've played with my priority lists in ToT and tested it again a few month ago and my custom priority was better than default (for dps) i think i've had cons above j but below cs, /shrug

And i have a number of alt and shift macros.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

The point wasn't about that particular usage, more like the notion that cons should be last on the list.

The difference is in usage, i know i can use it as an emergency heal on my self (besides LoH), and most 25m that i know at this point 3 heal most of the fights, so i doubt the overheal is that large.

P.S.
#showtooltip
/cast [@player] Holy Prism

I just have two binds - Shift+3 is Holy Prism on my target, and G is Holy Prism on myself (and is bound to G to cast on mouse-over a raid frame via Clique - very useful for picking up adds that are otherwise out of your own attack range).

[Deleted]

Hi again,

Just to give a quick update the paladin is thankful for all the advice you have given him. It has helped in out, however I was wondering if anyone could take a look at the latest logs since very frequently on Paragons, Skeer would one-shot him on the pull, now I am unsure if this is a gear issue (although in my opinion 565 is more than enough for a Prot Paladin) or if he is struggling on the pull. On top of this could anyone have a look at how he is performing in Blackfuse, ideally both the wipes and the kill.

Same place as last time:
Quelm- EU-Nagrand on Warcraft Logs
31/08/2014 raid.
Armoury: Sacredshield - Eu-Nagrand

Thank You in advance.

[Deleted]

Same place as last time:
Quelm- EU-Nagrand on Warcraft Logs
31/08/2014 raid.
Armoury: Sacredshield - Eu-Nagrand

Adding links for you.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...dshield/simple
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/17Jakbmr48wPHMvB

[Deleted]

Hi again,

Just to give a quick update the paladin is thankful for all the advice you have given him. It has helped in out, however I was wondering if anyone could take a look at the latest logs since very frequently on Paragons, Skeer would one-shot him on the pull, now I am unsure if this is a gear issue (although in my opinion 565 is more than enough for a Prot Paladin) or if he is struggling on the pull. On top of this could anyone have a look at how he is performing in Blackfuse, ideally both the wipes and the kill.

Same place as last time:
Quelm- EU-Nagrand on Warcraft Logs
31/08/2014 raid.
Armoury: Sacredshield - Eu-Nagrand

Thank You in advance.

Paragons of the Klaxxi is mostly physical damage, as such Divine Protection should be glyphed.

He must have some sort of small cooldown or AM running when blood letting hits him otherwise he is a going to die. Having alot of gear will completely make this void though as you'll have the health pool to just completely soak the damage. For the first bloodletting he wont have enough time to build holy power so he basically always has to Divine Protection it, or ask for an external.

His gear won't cause an issue with blood letting, but some of the bosses hit you like a truck and if he receives a heavy swing whilst Sotr is down, which can easily happen cause you'll never get a 100% uptime on Sotr when tanking one or two targets targets, then he is gonig to be in a bad place. I see you leave Locust up till near the end and he can reach the point of one hit killing you in a single unmitigated melee attack at that gear level, which actually did happen on a few attempts.

I also see he has a few deaths cause of Vicious Assault. Whilst he is stunned Lizamindy needs to make sure Sacredshield isn't being cleaved by taunting and not standing on him as there was occasions where was stunned and then cleaved. Also Sacredshield needs to keep in mind he will not dodge/parry/block Locust when stunned AND he will have the bleed on him from being stunned. Now would be time time to have Divine Protection or something else running otherwise he is looking at a death here. You dont Advance Combat Log so I cant see the other stuff I want to without spending hours on it so that's all I'll say for this fight.

For Siegecrafter:

He died to Frenzy from Siegecrafter, when a wep on the belt dies the boss goes to town on the tank, he needs to make sure he has some Holy Power ready for this otherwise some bad rng could easily kill him. He also obviously had alot of deaths to Electrostatic Charge, looking at the logs it was mostly a simple matter of not knowing when to use his cooldowns. On the kill attempt he seemed to have got it down.
In case he hasn't when I have the same role as him I use: (DP cannot be glyphed and you MUST have Unbreakable Spirit)

Stack 1 - Nothing
Stack 2 - Nothing (you can DP but it shouldnt kill you anyway)
Stack 3 - DP
Stack 4 - Ardent or Devo (it lines up with the magnet nicely, and even if it doesnt yolo you wont need it anywhere else)
Stack 5 - DP
Stack 6 - GoAK
Stack 7 - DP (+Ardent if I didnt use it earlier)
Stack Reset

Ardent guarantees that you wont die to it, so use it as late as possible, you can also Divine Shield whilst he is casting, taunt to stop him from changing targets for three seconds and then remove Divine Shield before taunt runs out. Although if you really need to do this then you are doing some wafty stacking or he fucked up somewhere.

At any point past 4 he should ask for externals if he isn't feeling safe and healers need to be ready to hand them to him.

The rest of his deaths where cause someone did a boo-boo with a mine and he took unnecessary damage and the knockup stops paladins from gaining some holy power to mitigate melee. Having 565 gear will be a struggle for him as apart from Divine Protection and long CD's he has no way of mitigating magic apart from having a large health pool, which he doesn't have cause of his gear. Healers will need to help him with Externals, especially if they are going half the fight and not casting them at all.

Edit: And bleh Holy Prism on Paragons is icky `
Edit: Also keep in mind that his tank cloak will completely mitigate a stack on siegecrafter too, you should avoid this cause you wont have a cusionif you make a mistake else where, but if he plans on doing it then dont use any cooldowns at all so you can save them for the next one
Edit again: Oh he doesnt have the tank cloak D:

[celinamuna]

why are ppl going up for 7-10 stacks on blackfuse unless solo tanking ?

[Deleted]

why are ppl going up for 7-10 stacks on blackfuse unless solo tanking ?

I normally go to 6, my co-tank goes to 7. Reason behind it is so the tanks can solo the shredder before the 4th Overcharge without needing all your range dps swap to it which is a pretty big damage loss on the boss. Can easily hit for 8mil+ on it with alot of stacks so might aswell do it if you can

On 6/7 stacks youll kill the shredder in about 10 seconds

[celinamuna]

I normally go to 6, my co-tank goes to 7. Reason behind it is so the tanks can solo the shredder before the 4th Overcharge without needing all your range dps swap to it which is a pretty big damage loss on the boss. Can easily hit for 8mil+ on it with alot of stacks so might aswell do it if you can

On 6/7 stacks youll kill the shredder in about 10 seconds

Shredders can survive past DFA ?

[Deleted]

I normally go to 6, my co-tank goes to 7. Reason behind it is so the tanks can solo the shredder before the 4th Overcharge without needing all your range dps swap to it which is a pretty big damage loss on the boss. Can easily hit for 8mil+ on it with alot of stacks so might aswell do it if you can

On 6/7 stacks youll kill the shredder in about 10 seconds

That is a pretty bad reason in my opinion to get to those stack levels.
Tanks (atleast warriors, paladins and monks) can solo shreddars before 4th explosion even at 3 stacks. Did they not nerf shreddars health aswell? (I havent really raided much since last year)
Going for 6-7 stacks in my eyes is kinda counterproductive as killing shreddars is already a mundane task.
The only real reason I can see is just for fun.

Getting 6-7 stacks takes quite some time, which means that you are in the later stages of the fight. We had 350~ wipes on Siegecrafter, we probably only made it below 50% on 30 of those wipes, and below 25% I think we only were on 2 or 3 tries before we got the kill. The tanks would not get that much experience on surviving those high stacks because you dont get that until the later stages of the fight.
Risking a wipe on those later stages of the fights just because tanks are playing with stacks, were in the eyes of our raid a moronic decision, which is why we opted out from it. Tanking SC was extremely simple, risking a wipe on a try that would otherwise have been a kill which could cause you to maybe have to go another 50 or 100 wipes was simply not worth it.

Having the tanks stay alive with as much leeway as possible just sped up the kill as you would need less wipes.

The amount of stacks we had for each shreddar was
3-4-5-4-5-5 That is simply more than enough for it to not be any issues. The only shreddars you could gain more stacks on are the later ones and the benefit there simply does not seem to exist in my eyes.

[Toore]

Were doing the strategy with mines up and we go to (max) 6 (warr) and 7 (me) before we reset (were tanking sherdder next to boss).
I do:
stack # CD
1 nothing
2 nothing
3 DP
4 AD
5 GoAK
6 DP+Vigiliance
7 bubble

[Deleted]

Personally I can kill the first shredder while tanking the boss next to it (so tanking both of them at the same time with shredder healing )

So you shouldn't need your range to swap to shredder after DFA... that just means you are bad lol

That superiority complex

I've always done it that way ever since our first kill, so I don't see the point in changing my stack pattern after over 35kills on him just because I dont need the damage anymore. And the shredder ofc dies after DFA, paladins have a pretty easy time doing it cause they can cast ES during the channel, then Judge/AS/HW before you even get back into melee range of the shredder and it'll be dead.

Also I checked his logs when I wrote that, and that is the tactic they used, going to 6 and 7 stacks respectively. Keep in mind too that you are probably 589ilvl whereas Sacredshield is 565 with alot less experiance at tanking it then you, he is probably going to struggle for a while

[Deleted]

That superiority complex

I've always done it that way ever since our first kill, so I don't see the point in changing my stack pattern after over 35kills on him just because I dont need the damage anymore. And the shredder ofc dies after DFA, paladins have a pretty easy time doing it cause they can cast ES during the channel, then Judge/AS/HW before you even get back into melee range of the shredder and it'll be dead.

Also I checked his logs when I wrote that, and that is the tactic they used, going to 6 and 7 stacks respectively. Keep in mind too that you are probably 589ilvl whereas Sacredshield is 565 with alot less experiance at tanking it then you, he is probably going to struggle for a while

Even though Lazels example is kinda extreme due to his gear, his point still stands. If you need your ranged to switch to the shreddar then you are doing something horribly wrong. I had 543 when I first tanked it. Killing it alone at 3 stacks before 4th overload was no issue. At 4-5 stacks I could kill it next to the boss with no issues either.

[Deleted]

Yeah I quoted you but it was directed at others too, was just being lazy and not quoting them

Plus our guild tactics are far from "optimal". We just use what we know so we can sell the runs without wipes. We can just about do all 14 bosses in three hours, and I'm alright with that clear rate, if we wipe it means we have to come back on another day and no one wants to do that

Firefly, there has never been a situation where I've needed range to swap to my shredder, but I said that is what would happen if he fails to solo his shredder in an acceptable amount of time as the 4-5th overload is going to start doing some pretty heavy aoe. Sorry if I made it sound like range should be swapping, that isn't what I meant. I never attempted to kill the shredder next to the boss even though I know its easily done cause of melee QQ if he casts DFA on them

[Deleted]

Firefly, there has never been a situation where I've needed range to swap to my shredder, but I said that is what would happen if he fails to solo his shredder in an acceptable amount of time as the 4-5th overload is going to start doing some pretty heavy aoe. Sorry if I made it sound like range should be swapping, that isn't what I meant. I never attempted to kill the shredder next to the boss even though I know its easily done cause of melee QQ if he casts DFA on them

Well, the way you worded yourself in your previous post made it seem like you had all your ranged switch the shreddar before you were and 6-7 stacks.
Anyways no worries. Misunderstandings is easy to happen on forums.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Killing the shredder is one of those things where I'd say gear has bugger all to do with it. You have something like 50k AP from gear, getting 30 item levels more is going to be about 5-10k more AP. A huge percentage of your damage on the shredder is the amount of stacks you have, followed by your total attack power, followed by environmental effects.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Not about the AP but about the crit

Meh, I've got about 25% crit and sometimes bugger all crits

Still kill it, mind. But I do like seeing AS crit, ES crit and HW crit all at basically the same time.