How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Deleted]

It was stupid in the past that people had to choose to be second rate raiders if they preferred 10 man.

I assume you're talking about Wrath, and no, people didn't have to 'choose to be second rate raiders if they preferred 10 man' back then. They could choose to raid as strict 10 man raiders, meaning no 25 man gear whatsoever, not even setting foot in 25s with a guilded alt for fear of losing their strict 10 status - this post quotes some of GuildOx's criteria. That made 10 man raiding genuinely challenging and credible, yet only a tiny number of people actually did that. Where were all the people who are now claiming that they prefer 10s?

[Deleted]

The only people with increased "logistical" concerns are the raid leaders/officers that put together the raids. But how do you realistically reward only those small handful of people?

Allow the 25m raiding guild to vote for 5 people for their effort. Those people get a discount on their sub for next month, free flasks/consumables, and of course eternal glory. We can make an entire leaderboard out of it. While we're at it, give them a free all you can eat coupon for McDs because clearly they're not satisfied by 25m raiding alone. Even though they drop more loot which (especially in the first weeks) is less likely to be disenchanted, 25m raiders are apparently still not satisfied with their rewards. Instead, just make it 15m raiding already.

Reward-wise there are simply 3 options:

1) The rewards for 25m become so good it makes 10m raiding irrelevant, 10m players feel obliged to merge to 25m, quit, or play casual.
2) The rewards for 25m make the logistics less of a burden.
3) The rewards for 25m are gimmicky and irrelevant, or general rewards for everyone or random instead of specific hence not targeting the specific audience who deserves the reward.

There is no way to specifically reward the people who put the effort into the logistics because the game cannot recognize such except if you implement something like I described my post started with.

The only mechanic which works as a reward is some kind of brain-related chemical release akin to altruism: the reward you feel from a volunteer position.

Other than that from #2 are: 25m-only feasts/cauldrons meaning they are a waste of gold/resource for 10m. Using big cauldron for 10m would be an utter waste, but for 25m is acceptable. It also falls in category #3 because it allows 25m raiders to slack on using/having consumables which is targeting the wrong audience.

So it is very hard if not downright impossible to separate #2 from #3, and therein lies the culprit of the problem.

[Deleted]

That made 10 man raiding genuinely challenging and credible, yet only a tiny number of people actually did that. Where were all the people who are now claiming that they prefer 10s?

I guess that we should give 10 man's double lockouts, higher item level gear and monopoly on legendaries, vanity items titles and mounts Then we will see were those who claim to prefer 25 man raiding are. Give it a whole xpac also.

[Djuntas]

1. 25 only bosses.

2. 25 only loot (no 10 only loot will exsist as counter)

3. 25 man loot on the last boss of a raid instance will have highere Ilvl than on 10 man. Think Sinestra 379 Ilvl, but as 385 on 25 man mode.

4. 25 man only title/achivements.

5. 25 man only mechanics (Some mechanics on 25 are just harder vs 10s, that is fact. Here I'm thinking spreading-mechanics cause of lack of room etc)

[Tepesch]

Just give 10-man and 25-man different looks on the loot, some more drops per end-boss and some unique mount (no guaranteed drop!). And everyone's happy.

This should make up the "extra effort" for a 25-man raid.

[Deleted]

Tbh I want more incentive to raid 25 mans, I would love for everyone to flock back to the 25 man raid format.... because I want my 10 man guild to go back to a 25 man guild

[Deleted]

I guess that we should give 10 man's double lockouts, higher item level gear and monopoly on legendaries, vanity items titles and mounts Then we will see were those who claim to prefer 25 man raiding are. Give it a whole xpac also.

You've completely missed the point. Not double dipping on loot and not having access to higher item level gear including legendaries is what made strict 10 man challenging and credible. Vanity titles and mounts don't make content easier. I'd absolutely agree that there should have been titles and rewards just for strict 10s (other than Herald and the ToC one that could be cheesed later in the expansion).

The vast majority of these people that claim to prefer 10 mans for whatever reason were't doing 10 man strict when it let them do 10s without feeling 'second class'. The vast majority that claim to prefer 10s because they're harder weren't doing 10s the hard way when that was possible.

[Ragedaug]

If by reward 25 mans for logistical effort you mean reward 25 man raid leaders who do the only increase in work for 25 mans then yes I agree with you. If you mean to reward the players who don't do any extra work (everyone but the raid lead) then no I am not agreeing with you.

This is where I am coming from as well.

If in raid frames they can flag a a Guild Master and a Recruiter in addition to the Raid Leader and Loot Master, then I would be fine with those positions getting an extra shot at loot, which seems like that should be enough. We already have bonus rolls working with the coins, have the ability for these players to use an extra bonus once or twice a week for an extra chance at rewards.

Otherwise, in every 25 man raid guild I've been in, I did far less on every front then I personally have done in every 10 man guild I have been in. For 25 mans I show up with my gear in order and my consumables and that's it. Nothing else outside the raid is required of me, ever. In every 10 man guild I've been in I've been promoted to officer (while never having asked for it) because of all the extra work that is required on an individual basis from the smaller guilds. The 25 man guilds already had leaders in place who took care of recruiting, fight strats, class organization, raid invites, etc, etc. The 10 mans often has 1 or 2 people who did that, but there are always times they couldn't make it for raid night, or needed a little more collaboration for a boss mechanic that we were struggling with.

So for 20+ members of the 25 man raid, there is less required on an individual basis. These are the people making the loudest noise to have 25 mans back. The raid leaders who actually did all the work are glad to have 10 mans where they have less responsibilities and required duties and don't have as many beatniks to corral each week. I see absolutely no reason to reward those 20+ players (who are not doing a thing more then 10 man raiders) with more loot and/or goodies then a 10 man raider gets.

To everyone whining that there aren't enough 25 man raid guilds. If you aren't on an active server, get to one...then man up and form and lead your own 25 man raid guild. They are dead because no one wants to lead them, not because no one wants to join them. There are plenty of players out there that won't mind mooching off your 25 man guild.

[Deleted]

I'd just split raid into 10man and 25man only like back in TBC. IE: Heart of Fear 25man only, Terrace 10man only. You wanna run a 10man/25man raid? Fine, but tier is splitted among different size of raid. Easier to tune as well

[Deleted]

1. 25 only bosses.

Won't happen; waste of development time. They want all content to be playable by 25 LFR, 10m, and 25m with differences on tuning and some mechanics.

2. 25 only loot (no 10 only loot will exsist as counter)

Would kill any half serious 10m raiding guild, making 10m raiding casual.

3. 25 man loot on the last boss of a raid instance will have highere Ilvl than on 10 man. Think Sinestra 379 Ilvl, but as 385 on 25 man mode.

They went away from this for obvious reasons. They reintroduced Ulduar-style hardmore with the elite gear which is completely optional and works on both difficulties. Funny you mention also Sinestra which was easier on 25m.

4. 25 man only title/achivements.

That, including realm first, could work. It'd create a competition on both ladders.

5. 25 man only mechanics (Some mechanics on 25 are just harder vs 10s, that is fact. Here I'm thinking spreading-mechanics cause of lack of room etc)

And some mechanics are easier in 25m. Mechanics just need to be tuned, and some fights easier or harder in 10m or 25m is OK if its within a small margin and goes back and forth.

All of your suggestions are reward-related; none are convenience-related. It seems 25m raiding isn't rewarding for you as it is.

[pouca]

Nobody will care about trivial amounts of gold / mats that are dead cheap on AH anyway. It needs to be something unique and substantial or no dice.

I don't agree, sure it will not bring back players to the 25 format (is it really a goal to achieve ?) BUT it will a be a nice reward for the players still in the 25 format because it's better than nothing.

[Kralljin]

Altough i raid 10man, i would like to see that people who handle the logistical work within a 25man Guild get additional stuff to make this up.

But i am strongly against that the entire Raid gets something, this should be for those 5-6 people who handle everything in terms of strat, doing the setup, searching for recruits and this stuff.

Those 20 other lazy asses who just log in when the raid starts and go offline when it's over shouldn't get anything additional because "they raid 25man".

[Deleted]

This is where I am coming from as well.

If in raid frames they can flag a a Guild Master and a Recruiter in addition to the Raid Leader and Loot Master, then I would be fine with those positions getting an extra shot at loot, which seems like that should be enough. We already have bonus rolls working with the coins, have the ability for these players to use an extra bonus once or twice a week for an extra chance at rewards.

A'ight guys heads up this is loot council speaking. For the next encounter Alice needs the 2H mace so we'll make her loot master, and Bob needs the trinket so he'll be GM temporarily.

(Or imagine bidding on it with DKP.)

So for 20+ members of the 25 man raid, there is less required on an individual basis. These are the people making the loudest noise to have 25 mans back. The raid leaders who actually did all the work are glad to have 10 mans where they have less responsibilities and required duties and don't have as many beatniks to corral each week. I see absolutely no reason to reward those 20+ players (who are not doing a thing more then 10 man raiders) with more loot and/or goodies then a 10 man raider gets.

Agreed, so the unanswered question is how can we reward, with convenience, the people who are doing the logistics in a 25m group? The answer is simple: doing it alone should be reward enough, and if it is too much to ask then there are solutions: taking a break, stepping down due to replace, switching to doing it in 10m, getting more help doing it. Because all of the suggestions (including the ones about the cauldron, feasts etc) are convenience for all the 25m players instead of the select few who do the hard work.

[Ragedaug]

The vast majority of these people that claim to prefer 10 mans for whatever reason were't doing 10 man strict when it let them do 10s without feeling 'second class'.

You do realize that the first time "it" let them do 10s without feeling 'second class' was T11 when Cata dropped? The reason I ask is because once "it" let them do 10s without feeling 'second class', then all the players who claimed to prefer 10 mans were running 10 man (or 10 man stricts if you prefer). Virtually no one who preferred 10 mans after Cata dropped were running 25 mans.

The vast majority that claim to prefer 10s because they're harder weren't doing 10s the hard way when that was possible.

Wait...what??

I've not seen anyone claim to prefer 10 mans because they were harder. So for one point, the "vast majority" of a pool of no one is still no one. Where are these people making this claim?

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 11:40 AM ----------

A'ight guys heads up this is loot council speaking. For the next encounter Alice needs the 2H mace so we'll make her loot master, and Bob needs the trinket so he'll be GM temporarily.

(Or imagine bidding on it with DKP.)

Agreed, so the unanswered question is how can we reward, with convenience, the people who are doing the logistics in a 25m group? The answer is simple: doing it alone should be reward enough, and if it is too much to ask then there are solutions: taking a break, stepping down due to replace, switching to doing it in 10m, getting more help doing it. Because all of the suggestions (including the ones about the cauldron, feasts etc) are convenience for all the 25m players instead of the select few who do the hard work.

You aren't wrong in suggesting there are many problems and holes with what I stated. I don't know what the best way to reward them would be, I just know I would be OK with giving those who have to give extra of themselves a little extra.

The problem I run into when I see the debate and the "extra stuff should be given for extra effort" is that for starters, it's only a few people, and there's a huge gap between what those people do and give over everyone else. For example, how would Blizzard reward a 25 man recruiter, who from my experience has one of the toughest & most demanding jobs of the 25 man structure?

The only thing I do know is I'm not OK with giving the entire 25 man raid extra goodies for running with a bigger crowd, because as stated, it makes anyone who prefers 10 man format feel 2nd Class...which among other things simply doesn't make sense why they would be disparaged in the first place.

[Deleted]

All the top guilds in the world raid 25 bar one.

How has it vanished?

The top guilds in the world aren't complaining about incentivising 25 mans.
They get on with it, maintaining their rosters because people want to be in the best guild they can.
A lot of 10 man guilds formed after 25 mans got the same loot as 10 man, why?
My opinion of why is because they could no longer be arsed to carry all the shitters they had in their 25 man rosters.
Those that wanted to carry on raiding 25 man, have done. Be it by changing server to join a well maintained 25 man team, staying in their own, or making a new 25 man guild.
Those that claim to want to raid 25 man always claim a lack of incentive. All this equates to is 'I can't be bothered because I don't get better loot anymore'.
Grow up, play what you want, don't diminish 1 raid size to benefit the other. It's pathetic.

In my opinion the only change thats needed is separate realm first achi's with a limit that only allows raiders of a specific size get that realm first, to avoid 10's taking 25 man realm first, and the more than likely 25 taking 10's.
If they want both. Make something along the lines of the ulduar ilvl restriction title/achi.
Except instead of ilvl (because there should be no difference) make it so each raid size tags the items 10/25.

Want both rf's? Get the proper item saturation level for that size.

[Deleted]

If they come up with something as stupid as to give extra rewards to the Leader and the officers to "save" 25s while the only thing that such a thing will create is another filter that will discriminate the player base, (and become a source for another round of endless quarrels) then the very first day it is implemented we re back to raiding 25 and all the raiders of the guild will be promoted to Rank 1.

Simple.

This stupidity won't save anything, on the contrary it will add another reason for teams to break, with every individual trying hopelesly to form a 25, most of them to get the reward, aka for the wrong reason.

When i see so many 10 man raiders argue in favor of such a change, i stop wondering how they fail to see that a raiding model that treats 2 different things as the same is failed and rotten to the core.

[Detheavn]

Nothing in the world will make me go back to 25m raiding unless there is a separate lockout between 10 and 25 man. That way I can still do 10m with my friends while making progress in 25m as well.

As long as that isn't in place I'm not quitting raiding with my friends

[Deleted]

why does 25man need an advantage over 10man? u play wotever u want... theres plenty of 25man guilds out there

[Deleted]

You aren't wrong in suggesting there are many problems and holes with what I stated. I don't know what the best way to reward them would be, I just know I would be OK with giving those who have to give extra of themselves a little extra.

But can't they solve that internally with extra DKP, more responsibility, getting stuff like mounts first, or knowing yourself you put more effort into the achievement than the average joe? What about the logistics managers in 10m? Do they also deserve a reward from Blizzard? Isn't it technically impossible? Its not the first time this discussion runs, and I have yet to see a technical solution from Blizzard which would reward those people fairly and those who just raided normally as-is. So while I can applaud your suggestion for effort, it just would be open to abuse as I suggested.

[elderamy]

really? why reward 25 man better? 25 already has better loot management...
why do ppl who raid 25 feel they should be rewarded for it over ppl who raid 10 man?

If ppl want to raid 10 man why not just letting them do it? if you wanna go 10 man you go 10 man, if you want to go 25 you go 25...
If you get extra loot, its forcing ppl to go 25 so they be competitive... and that is nonsense... Just let ppl play what they want and prefer...