Isn't it about time the Mens' Rights Movement stopped being treated like a joke?

[Rukentuts]

Getting snipped. Staying abstinent.

The exact same terrible argument that swings both ways.

[Northern Goblin]

I don't think anyone is saying the father should be allowed to saddle the mother with all of the burden after the child has been born.

This so much, I don't know why people are still arguing against the above.

And Wells, I'd already highlighted why that was a terrible argument, and you were still making it.

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of you telling other people to leave the thread earlier, then doing the same dismissive responses.

[Wells]

At least it's an option. That's one more option than men currently have.

Yes it is. Because men aren't carrying the fetus. You're trying to make a inherently unequal situation equal which is just giving one side undue power.

Are you actually seriously suggesting that you believe post birth the mother has more jurisdiction over the child's future than the father?

Nope, and I haven't.

[Aalyy]

She consented to the activity too, yet has options (non biological) to avoid that responsibility.

They both undertook the activity, one of them comes out of it with choices.

You make it sound like the mother has the right to dump the child on the father after its born and wash her hands of the whole thing. Does the law not hold her as equally responsible for the child's welfare as it does the father?

And yeah, they both undertook the activity but the consequences for one are far more severe for one than the other. Neither a pregnancy nor an abortion is of any consequence to the life or physical health of the father but both have serious consequences for the mother. There is an inherent inequality right there.

[Wells]

The exact same terrible argument that swings both ways.

Not really. You guys are perfectly happy telling women they have to get a fairly risky and traumatic procedure if the man wants to bag out and that's ok.

But apparently a 30 minute out patient procedure is the end of the world.

And Wells, I'd already highlighted why that was a terrible argument, and you were still making it.

No, you'd told me why you think its a terrible argument then refused to debate the point.

[Rukentuts]

Yes it is. Because men aren't carrying the fetus. You're trying to make a inherently unequal situation equal which is just giving one side undue power.

And you're trying to say men need to deal with the consequences of a woman's choice, but when women have to deal with a man's choice all of a sudden it's a shitty situation.

[starlord]

Not really, at the point the man is opting out, the woman hasn't even decided if she's going to carry it/raise it or not. She still has that choice to make.

She's then making a much more informed decision, if she chooses to continue to be a mother, she knows she'll be doing it alone. It's not like he's dropping it on her and she's no means out herself.

and what safety net do you propose to make up for the lack of the current system?

[Wells]

And you're trying to say men need to deal with the consequences of a woman's choice, but when women have to deal with a man's choice all of a sudden it's a shitty situation.

Yup. Because the woman's choice is between everyone gets an equal share of their responsibility or no one does.

Where as the man's is to share the responsibility or put it all on the woman.

[Laize]

I'm not saying a woman doesn't have to take responsibility. If there is a child she needs to care for it as well.

Again, there are options. If you really really don't want a kid there are perfectly functional options to avoid it as a man. Getting snipped. Staying abstinent. Sleeping with a woman who has an IUD. Sleeping with a girl who is on the pill (99% at least)

Getting a surgical operation, abstinence education or relying on the woman.

So there's no self-determination option that doesn't involve ignoring a natural urge or risking sterility for the rest of your life?

[TheImmortalLordAtlas]

I really do wonder why people can't just keep it in their pants. It's the sure-fire way to avoid pregnancy.

[Rukentuts]

Yup. Because the woman's choice is between everyone gets an equal share of their responsibility or no one does.

Where as the man's is to share the responsibility or put it all on the woman.

Which is still her choice. What did you say about accepting consequences?

[buck008]

And you're trying to say men need to deal with the consequences of a woman's choice, but when women have to deal with a man's choice all of a sudden it's a shitty situation.

Actually both situations suck. That's why I'm not sure why you're ok with a solution that doesn't actually fix anything, just replaces one bad situation with a different one.

[Laize]

Yup. Because the woman's choice is between everyone gets an equal share of their responsibility or no one does.

Where as the man's is to share the responsibility or put it all on the woman.

Excuse me but you continue to ignore the fact that the man isn't "dumping responsibility on the woman".

She's making a conscious decision to carry the child to term. It's her choice. You don't get to make someone else responsible for your choices.

[Northern Goblin]

Again, there are options. If you really really don't want a kid there are perfectly functional options to avoid it as a man. Getting snipped. Staying abstinent. Sleeping with a woman who has an IUD. Sleeping with a girl who is on the pill (99% at least)

You still haven't refuted the points about condoms failing, women lying and men not wanting the snip when they're young because they'd like to be fathers down the line when they can bring up a child in a healthy family that's financially well off.

The abstinence is a daft one, that's like saying "If she didn't want to be single handedly raising a child, she should have stayed abstinent or got her tubes tied! I mean what a reckless woman to sleep with guys who might have no interest in being fathers. Then by the product of her actions she's bringing a child into the world that she can't raise properly, despite knowing ahead of time she had no support. How selfish of her to put her wants of being a mother before the child's welfare!"

See, the argument is stupid both ways.

[Wells]

Getting a surgical operation, abstinence education or relying on the woman.

So there's no self-determination option that doesn't involve ignoring a natural urge or risking sterility for the rest of your life?

Well that or trusting your sex partner. And yes. Those are your options. Then again I've managed to be sexually active for many years now and not had to result in any of those and doing just fine. Even talked with my partner about abortion prior to sleeping with her. So I know I won't be burdened with a child.

I don't really buy the argument that "women get to have an abortion but all my options are too haaard"

[Northern Goblin]

No, you'd told me why you think its a terrible argument then refused to debate the point.

If you replied to that point I missed it, before you just started repeating it again and again.

And talking about "because it's her body" when I was talking non biological (read NOT abortion) options she has. I started to wonder if you were actually reading what you were replying to.

[Rukentuts]

Well that or trusting your sex partner. And yes. Those are your options.

But having her trust that he would actually want to be a father is out of the question? Because it is sounding a lot to me that when women have to deal with options men currently they have, suddenly it's unacceptable.

[Northern Goblin]

You make it sound like the mother has the right to dump the child on the father after its born and wash her hands of the whole thing.

Not on the father, but on someone else. She has the option to abandon it completely.

[Wells]

Excuse me but you continue to ignore the fact that the man isn't "dumping responsibility on the woman".

She's making a conscious decision to carry the child to term. It's her choice. You don't get to make someone else responsible for your choices.

That's exactly what the man is doing when he walks. He's taking the responsibility for his choices and telling the woman they're all hers now.

You still haven't refuted the points about condoms failing,

You shouldn't rely on condoms.

women lying

Already answered this.

and men not wanting the snip when they're young because they'd like to be fathers down the line

Modern science does amazing things.

107 pages is a little late to jump in.

I don't care if the options for 100% aversion to pregnancy suck, that's irrelevant. There are options. You make choices. Its not like an abortion isn't absolutely horrid.

[starlord]

Excuse me but you continue to ignore the fact that the man isn't "dumping responsibility on the woman".

She's making a conscious decision to carry the child to term. It's her choice. You don't get to make someone else responsible for your choices.

or conversely try to take responsibility for someone else's choice.