Frost Presence vs Unholy Presence.

[Chat]

Since haste is a big part of 2H Frost DPS. I was thinking.. wouldn't Unholy be better since it increases your Haste and Proc chance..?

Any ideas?

[Kaosbringer]

That used to be the case but, due to the lack of RP generating talents that we had in Cata, we need to use FP to not become resource starved. Improved FP also is a big factor, as it does not take effect in UP.

Basically well we would get more passive runes and KM procs, we would lose far to much active rune generation and the damage that goes with it for it to be worth while.

[Pieterman]

It kind of works, but is by no means better. I've also tried the other way around. It's quite fun but not your best choice.

[Deleted]

I only use Unholy Presence for the movement speed increase then straight back to frost >.<

Edit: I played DK ages ago though idk if it even still does increase speed now that I think about it... Sure it did in Wrath / Cata though

[Stormcall]

I only use Unholy Presence for the movement speed increase then straight back to frost >.<

Edit: I played DK ages ago though idk if it even still does increase speed now that I think about it... Sure it did in Wrath / Cata though

It still increases movement speed.

[Evil Inside]

I only use Unholy Presence for the movement speed increase then straight back to frost >.<

Edit: I played DK ages ago though idk if it even still does increase speed now that I think about it... Sure it did in Wrath / Cata though

If you pick Death's Advance then you have a passive speed boost no matter what spec.

[Neave]

we're defiantly back to Frost Presence as frost DKs, and Unholy Presence is only for Unholy dps now.
the main reason is because Rime no longer gives runic power like it did in 4.3 and the RP generation was buffed big time for frost pres.

unholy pres as frost dk is a big no no right now

[Stormcall]

If you pick Death's Advance then you have a passive speed boost no matter what spec.

Death's Advance stacks with UP though, so if you're just needing to get somewhere quick you might still wanna swap to UP while you're running. This is actually quite nice if you're farming old instances for mounts/pets/transmog gear/whatever, since you usually can't mount and, I assume, just want to get to the boss you need to kill as quickly as possible.

[Hunty]

No, 15 RP cost increase on Frost Strike just nukes everything. Costs a lot of frost strikes, which costs a bunch of rune returns, which again reduces runic power gained and so on. You'll reach like 50% active time like that.

[Totle]

When I'm low and out of food during dailies, I switch to UH to spam Death Strike really quickly and then go back to frost after that pull is over.

[Dossou]

There's actually been some theorycrafting that at extreme levels of haste (we're talking not this tier and maybe not even next tier) swapping to Unholy Presence as 2H Frost.

This seems counter intuitive, as Unholy Presence will increase your haste even further with extreme levels of haste already from gear, but the idea is getting more Obliterates. Frost Strike costs 35 Runic Power in Unholy Presence, so at a certain level of haste you'll actually use the same number of GCDs but be getting a higher Obliterate to Frost Strike ratio.

Obviously, Runic Empowerment has to be factored into the equation as Blood Tap and Runic Corruption won't be viable at all. (If Soul Reaper didn't exist or Frost had an eternal Blood Plague mechanic it would be).

It's all very complicated stuff and won't be seriously considered until probably 13-14k haste.

[terrorsolda]

When I'm low and out of food during dailies, I switch to UH to spam Death Strike really quickly and then go back to frost after that pull is over.

How would this help? All DK specs have a 1 second GCD now, and I don't believe the rune regen in UP is so great that you will be able to fit in more DS's in a short amount of time.

[Neave]

There's actually been some theorycrafting that at extreme levels of haste swapping to Unholy Presence as 2H Frost.

This seems counter intuitive, as Unholy Presence will increase your haste even further with extreme levels of haste already from gear, but the idea is getting more Obliterates. Frost Strike costs 35 Runic Power in Unholy Presence, so at a certain level of haste you'll actually use the same number of GCDs but be getting a higher Obliterate to Frost Strike ratio.

Obviously, Runic Empowerment has to be factored into the equation as Blood Tap and Runic Corruption won't be viable at all.

well, the +20% runic power is just too valuable to miss. without it, we'd be getting bogged down left and right. and because the Rune regen tier talents only proc from Frost Strike (specifically +100% rune haste), Unholy pres will never be best for Frost. also, Rime no longer giving runic power is the last nail in the Unholy pres coffin.

thats my opinion

[Dossou]

well, the +20% runic power is just too valuable to miss. without it, we'd be getting bogged down left and right. and because the Rune regen tier talents only proc from Frost Strike (specifically +100% rune haste), Unholy pres will never be best for Frost. also, Rime no longer giving runic power is the last nail in the Unholy pres coffin.

thats my opinion

That's not nessisarily the case with an excessive amount of haste. The idea is that you'd be getting more Obliterates off base Rune Regen rate rather than relying on Runic Empowerment to Regen runes, and Runic Empowerment is the only reason you'd be Frost Striking in the first place. If you can generate runes fast enough to never have to Frost Strike to generate more runes, what's the point of generating Runic Power?

It's kind of a backwards concept and difficult to understand, but think about it like this.

Situation 1 - Frost Presence, Average Haste - You play normal 2H, using Frost Strike when run starved.
Situation 2 - Frost Presence, High Haste - You play normal 2H, however you have no free globals because your base rune Regen is high because of your high haste. You're Obliterating more and Frost Striking less.
Situation 3 - Unholy Presence, Average Haste - You have too many empty globals, because your runes don't generate fast enough to compensate for the lack of Frost Strikes.
Situation 4 - Unholy Presence, High Haste - Your runes are regenerating fast enough to almost entirely spam Obliterate and not worry about Frost Striking to proc runes, so the Runic Power cost of Frost Strike is irrelevant.

Like I said, this point probably won't be obtainable this tier or maybe not even next, but is is possible with extreme levels of haste.

In my Sims currently, I have ~55 actions per minute with ~9500 haste, which is only 5 empty globals per minute. This is obviously with average RNG.

This is just basic napkin math, but I know there's some hardcore motherfuckers on here like Vereesa, Fnx or Mend that could math it out to find the exact value of haste needed to almost entirely ignore Frost Strike. It's probably insanely high. (There might be a point in time where swapping to Unholy Presence during lust is viable)

That's what I can decipher this far.

[Kendeura]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=JJ9c24vVDoQ

The Blood Legion DK is using unholy presence as frost here. Hmm.

[Soisoisoi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=JJ9c24vVDoQ

The Blood Legion DK is using unholy presence as frost here. Hmm.

He switched during Get Away, where you need to constantly move to stay in range of the boss. I assume he forgot to switch back too, you can see how resource starved he was (only watched about 30sec extra).

Edit: Was in UP from 1:00 to 2:39. The rest was FP, so yeah, I assume he just forgot.

[Deleted]

The Blood Legion DK is using unholy presence as frost here. Hmm.

He seems to switch between the two, which I suppose is for times when he needs higher mobility.

[Dossou]

He seems to switch between the two, which I suppose is for times when he needs higher mobility.

To be honest, Death's Advance with Pandaren Step should be enough to be able to stay in Frost Presence during Get Away.

[Schizoide]

Some point where 10% increased attack speed becomes better that 10% rune regen (and disregarding the discount on Frost strikes).

10% attack speed and 20% runic power generation aren't big deals. They have small impact.

10% rune generation and the frost strike discount are huge deals, but cheap frost strikes will always win out, unless you get enough haste to become GCD-locked.

[Shiira]

Schizoide knows what the bonuses are, he's just saying which ones are more useful than the others.

And frost presence gives you ninety percent more frost strikes. Ninety. Percent. That's a lot of frost strikes, and it's also a lot of runic empowerment procs.