Remove ALL iLvLs

[Gilian]

The person who made gearscore really fucked up. This is the sole reason why we have ilvls in the first place. Blizzard probably never put ilvl on items because it would cause people to care way too much about that 'stat' which is meaningless but since we ourselfs started using an addon for it it didn't really matter anymore what Blizzard did.

Now it's only ilvl this ilvl that and people are even more focused on gear which isn't a good thing in my opinion.

[yjmark]

The person who made gearscore really fucked up. This is the sole reason why we have ilvls in the first place. Blizzard probably never put ilvl on items because it would cause people to care way too much about that 'stat' which is meaningless but since we ourselfs started using an addon for it it didn't really matter anymore what Blizzard did.

Now it's only ilvl this ilvl that and people are even more focused on gear which isn't a good thing in my opinion.

ilvls were in the game long before GearScore.

[Gilian]

I'm not sure you know what ilvl is.

I'm not sure if you read his post or if you even know how things were before 'ilvl' was showing on gear.

---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 11:13 PM ----------

ilvls were in the game long before GearScore.

Yes, they were there from the start. So? No one talked about how much ilvl anyone had before those addons showed up.

[skitz0129]

I have healed (and been top 1/2 healer) all the LFRs and my healing set (my off spec) has an ilvl of around 435.

Are you telling me ilvl = capability of doing the raids?

I knew someone was going to do this.

No I'm not saying ilvl is the determining factor in performance. Obviously someone that knows how to play their class and spec very well can do well with lesser gear. I really don't think your post was needed because this is so obvious. Just insanely stupidly fucking obvious.

My statement is in regards to the majority of people that play this game, and the fact that most of them are awful at their spec and would be a complete hindrance going in to LFR with a 435 ilvl.

[Superchief]

I agree with the OP this would be a step in the right direction, and as a side note Gearscore was probably one of the best addons to ever happen to the game. Let me explain. First of all if you are in a raiding guild you are completely unconcerned about gearscore okay, the raid leader already knows what you are capable of. Now if you are forming a pug raid in trade chat, that's where gearscore shines.

Before gearscore, raid leaders had to either;

1) Inspect each whisper manually through the Armory, and if they weren't wearing their PvE gear they had to be inspected in-game taking up more time or just strait up be excluded for not being in PvE gear when they logged out.

2) Inspect nobody to save time and just mass invite and hope for the best, these raids usually failed miserably.

SO essentially gearscore sped up the raid forming process by being able to pick from the cream of the crop. If you were excluded then of course you would hate gearscore, but guess what the second you decide to make your own pug raid you magically like it again. It's a love hate relationship, and gearscore or item level requirements will always be part of the game for convenience reasons. Especially for automated processes like Looking for Raid, can you imagine everyone queuing for that in quest greens? Do you REALLY want that?

[-ex-]

I knew someone was going to do this.

No I'm not saying ilvl is the determining factor in performance. Obviously someone that knows how to play their class and spec very well can do well with lesser gear. I really don't think your post was needed because this is so obvious. Just insanely stupidly fucking obvious.

My statement is in regards to the majority of people that play this game, and the fact that most of them are awful at their spec and would be a complete hindrance going in to LFR with a 435 ilvl.

I simply cant imagine what the dps/healing/mitigation would be like for players who already under preform if they were allowed to join in 435 ilvl. Seriously some players in 470+ilvl in LFR literally pull less than 20k dps, now if they were allowed to come in under the item level?

[yjmark]

Yes, they were there from the start. So? No one talked about how much ilvl anyone had before those addons showed up.

I read your post, and thought you were stating that ilvl was put in the game solely for GearScore. I must have misunderstood.

Either way, it wasn't the addon that was the problem. It was the people who were not using it was it was intended. It's like saying that people drive drunk....well that is obviously the fault of the person who invented the car.

ilvl always has been, and still is, a good indicator of your gear level. It is not intended to be a "how good of a player you are" tool.

[Mythricia]

There's no ilevel requirement to enter any instance in a pug group. Never was.


Removing the requirement from LFD/LFR would be a bad idea, since then you'd have a billion people trying to get free loot while being practically naked, fresh, level 90's. I guarantee you.


So........ Since you can already pug anything in the game without gear restrictions, the point is.....? Item level was always available, anyway. It just wasn't always displayed on the tooltip. People knew the concept of item-levels already in Vanilla.

[Maelle]

I agree with the OP this would be a step in the right direction, and as a side note Gearscore was probably one of the best addons to ever happen to the game. Let me explain. First of all if you are in a raiding guild you are completely unconcerned about gearscore okay, the raid leader already knows what you are capable of. Now if you are forming a pug raid in trade chat, that's where gearscore shines.

Before gearscore, raid leaders had to either;

1) Inspect each whisper manually through the Armory, and if they weren't wearing their PvE gear they had to be inspected in-game taking up more time or just strait up be excluded for not being in PvE gear when they logged out.

2) Inspect nobody to save time and just mass invite and hope for the best, these raids usually failed miserably.

SO essentially gearscore sped up the raid forming process by being able to pick from the cream of the crop. If you were excluded then of course you would hate gearscore, but guess what the second you decide to make your own pug raid you magically like it again. It's a love hate relationship, and gearscore or item level requirements will always be part of the game for convenience reasons. Especially for automated processes like Looking for Raid, can you imagine everyone queuing for that in quest greens? Do you REALLY want that?

I never understood the GS rage... it's not like you would have gotten into that pug with your crappy blues or ungemmed gear the week before unless it was a terrible pug.

But people do like to pretend the reason thye couldn't get a pug was because they lacked 2 ilvls, not because they gemmed intellect on their rogue. The same as people like to nostalgise (wrongly) that in BC you could walk into a great pug in terrible gear because everyone loved carrying people, and many rainbows were farted out by all

[vqkatsuko]

I feel that the OP doesnt understand what Ilvl is, how it works, and how it affects gear.

[yjmark]

I feel that the OP doesnt understand what Ilvl is, how it works, and how it affects gear.

OP already admitted that he misunderstood that regular/heroic raids do not have ilvl requirements, and that is only isolated to LFD/LFR.

[Mythricia]

I agree with the OP this would be a step in the right direction, and as a side note Gearscore was probably one of the best addons to ever happen to the game. Let me explain. First of all if you are in a raiding guild you are completely unconcerned about gearscore okay, the raid leader already knows what you are capable of. Now if you are forming a pug raid in trade chat, that's where gearscore shines.

Before gearscore, raid leaders had to either;

1) Inspect each whisper manually through the Armory, and if they weren't wearing their PvE gear they had to be inspected in-game taking up more time or just strait up be excluded for not being in PvE gear when they logged out.

2) Inspect nobody to save time and just mass invite and hope for the best, these raids usually failed miserably.

SO essentially gearscore sped up the raid forming process by being able to pick from the cream of the crop. If you were excluded then of course you would hate gearscore, but guess what the second you decide to make your own pug raid you magically like it again. It's a love hate relationship, and gearscore or item level requirements will always be part of the game for convenience reasons. Especially for automated processes like Looking for Raid, can you imagine everyone queuing for that in quest greens? Do you REALLY want that?

Except on so, so, so many occasions did I see excellent players with slightly less gear than was desired, being rejected for a pug. Fact of the matter is, that player would have done orders of magnitude more dps / healing / played better in general, even if he had less gear. How can this not be understood? My shitty Ret paladin alt tops DPS on any pug I join, and she's in 469 gear. People I compete in damage with have as high as 488 gear in some cases, and they do less damage, and play -far- worse in many cases. Gearscore may have been a fine tool in theory, but the way it was used made it an actual scourge upon the PuG community of the game.

I stopped pugging because of it, and I only started again now in MoP due to some friendly invites. And as a result, I'm now the most reliable DPS they have in their semi-regular PuG group, yet I also have the least gear of them all, sometimes by quite a large margin.

[PrairieChicken]

What is the point of PVE without getting better gear?

the game would die if there is no gear difference

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Removing the requirement from LFD/LFR would be a bad idea, since then you'd have a billion people trying to get free loot while being practically naked, fresh, level 90's. I guarantee you.

No better than what we see in dungeons.

There's countless tanks that try to tank LFR in gear not suited for the job despite ilvl, and then complain about healing. Had a really nasty tank complain, who to the raid final laugh, w-a-l-k-e-d off DW's spine. lololol He finally shut up.

All LFR needs is players willing to try. Not sit back being mooches. Not treating it like a regular BG multiboxing (yes, some are doing this, and it's horrible in raids).

---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 05:41 PM ----------

What is the point of PVE without getting better gear?

the game would die if there is no gear difference

Plenty of things to do but chase gear. What I'm wearing now is more than enough to do the dailies/heroics and doing some BGs as a pure healer...and just one set of gear (FINALLY!). Still come in around #3 on the healing meters, despite not even in but 2 purples.

iLvL isn't a substitute for skill, never was.

[Pancaspe]

The Easter Bunny
Santa Claus
The player who tops the Meters in crap gear

See The Pattern?

[Kevyne-Shandris]

The Easter Bunny
Santa Claus
The player who tops the Meters in crap gear

See The Pattern?

Yep.

See also not needing 2 sets of gear to even do anything?

See also skills matter more than ilvl?

Keep dreaming ilvl really matters.

[artem123]

Yep.

See also not needing 2 sets of gear to even do anything?

See also skills matter more than ilvl?

Keep dreaming ilvl really matters.

ive seen 450 ilvl healers do better then 480 healers of the same class.
point?
anyway no ilvl req for LFD/LFR would be horrid

[KennyBoi3]

Let me tell you a little story about how someone was unable to put in the effort required to Q for a raid. Eventually he gave up, and came to QQ.

Thus this thread was born.

The End.

[Prokne]

Yes, they were there from the start. So? No one talked about how much ilvl anyone had before those addons showed up.

No one knew that they existed before the addons showed up. Right now you know a piece of gear is better basically if it has a higher ilvl or higher priority stats so its pretty easy to tell what is better(trinkets are still difficult). What you had to do before was find the piece of gear that had the perfect allocation of stats for your spec which you only knew from a spreadsheet. The interesting thing was that a piece from Kara could be better than one from BT. We know now that there is 20-30 ilvl difference in the stat budget and most likely someone would choose the higher ilvl one just because it raises an arbitrary score.

I've been saying for a while that they should get rid of ilvl reqs for queuing and have some sort of algorithm to calculate a dps, tank or healing score based on all of you stats. Not only would better gear give you a better score regardless of ilvl but it would take proper gemming, reforging and enchants into consideration. The ilvl for LFR is so high right now because it assumes you just have the raw gear with no improvements.

---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 10:55 PM ----------

OP already admitted that he misunderstood that regular/heroic raids do not have ilvl requirements, and that is only isolated to LFD/LFR.

You could say that pugs require various ilvls but if you didnt have a number we would just go back to whispering stats and raid leaders would have to know what stats are good for every class.

[Deleted]

Skill is more important then ilvl true enough but not so much that you can flat out ignore the quality of gear. Basically skill+gear=win.
Besides problem with skill is that it is not mathematically quantifiable because there are many factors that separate good from bad players not just dps/hps. There is cd's usage, avoiding avoidable dmg (aka not standing in fire), or for example having high hps but most of it not being overhealing, or tank correctly positioning and many, many, many more. Because taking into account all those factors and actually quantifying them mathematically seems borderline impossible, we have ilvl as a gateway for LFD and LFR since you don't even need a calculator to calculate somebody's average ilvl but it still provides some measure of guarantee that those 4 or 24 other ppl aren't just there to waste your time.

But from my experience if you are recruiting for a guild or a pug you are better of not paying that much attention to somebody's ilvl but checking if they bothered to correctly enchant, gem, and reforge their gear. Coz if they didn't that basically means they couldn't be bothered to learn how to do it and by proxy they probably couldn't be bothered to learn to play their class. Coz I don't think there is for example a melee player out there with mad skills and for example 3% hit chance on gear..