Revamping the Expansion Model

[Gnomeschool]

I have had a number of friends over the past couple of years tell me that they would like to play WoW, but the idea of it seems too daunting at this point. They have to buy the game and each expansion, then play through them all, before they can catch up and do the things they really want to do-- the new stuff that they keep hearing about. Everybody talks about the real game at the end of the leveling process, and getting into WoW is seen as a big chore that a lot of people don't want to bother with.

It's not just a content problem, but a consumer mentality problem, and maybe a psychological problem. Even though Blizzard has made it easier and cheaper to obtain the expansions and level up, it feels like an unwieldy project that a lot of people are hesitant to even consider. From a new player's perspective they have to buy World of Warcraft in four parts, while paying a subscription, and then there are five entire games spanning eight years to play through just to catch up and join their friends. They don't even really know how long it takes to level, they just know that there are a lot of steps involved.

In my opinion the current expansion model feels antiquated, or at least a bit awkward.

So what, you want to do away with expansion packs?

No, not at all. I just think that there could be another way to handle expansions which would feel better, especially for new players. Specifically, I would like to play with the idea of expansions being independent from one another. This is the way expansion content is handled in a lot of other games.

A new character could level from 1-60 as normal, but instead of then moving on to Outland they would be able to choose any of the expansion paths available to them. The player would have to purchase an expansion to keep going at that point, but no matter which one they bought they would be able to jump right into that content.

Which means, yeah, you could go straight to the Jade Forest at level 60.

So people wouldn't play the older expansions at all?

Playing through TBC, WotLK and Cata could still be incentivized in a number of different ways. It's probably best that it not be an absolute requirement for casuals, but it should offer some benefit to more serious players to give them a reason to go back. Even casual players would still want to play through that content if they really enjoy the game.

One idea I've had is to give each expansion pack it's own set of levels, somewhat akin to the Paragon Levels in a game like Diablo 3. You could earn 10 levels in Northrend; Frost Levels, just as an example.

You could even gain a class skill once you maxed out those levels. It shouldn't be a required skill, but it might be something like the new talent system we have right now. A choice between a few crowd control methods, defensive options, or other things that add a bit more flexibility but are not strictly required to be a competent player. These Frost levels, Fel levels, etc, could be the new way players gain talent points.



If you went from 1-60 and then straight to Pandaria, you would essentially have unlocked two talent tiers. If you wanted the rest of the talents, you would have to go back and level in Outland, Northrend and Cataclysm to earn them. When playing alts this experience could easily be buffed.

So what, you ding level 60 and choose to go to Pandaria, and now you're level 85?

I think it would feel a bit better if the numbers were adjusted to make more sense. In Pandaria you would earn Zen Levels or something like that, so the numbers 60 and 85 almost don't matter.

Since we are level 90 today, if a system like this came with the fifth or sixth expansion pack the numbers could be adjusted so that when you finish the old world you would be level 100. That way it wouldn't feel like a step backward for current players, either. You would then go on to earn the expac specific levels for the new expansion.

Everyone would display as level 100, but there could be something like a badge under portraits and in tooltips to represent each expansion a player has completed.



In summary, using my example

• New players buy WoW, then level from 1-100 in the old world and learn most class abilities.
• The player purchases the expansion pack of their choice.
  
  • The Burning Crusade: Players earn 10 Fel Levels and unlock the Fel tier of talents.
  • Wrath of the Lich King: Players earn 10 Frost Levels and unlock the Frost tier of talents.
  • Cataclysm: Players earn 10 Fire Levels and unlock the Fire tier of talents.
  • Pandaria: Players earn 10 Zen levels and unlock the Zen tier of talents.
• The player could go through every expac as normal, in any order they prefer, or even work on multiple expansions at the same time.

It's just an idea, and I'm sure it could use a lot of refinement, but I think something like this would be really great for the overall health of the game and community. With the way it feels right now I can imagine that-- especially after another expansion or two-- it's a problem Blizzard will have to address.

What do you guys think? Any other ideas to make WoW feel more approachable or less awkward when leveling?

[Deleted]

i didn't think i would have said that reading the title (sorry OP ), usually threads like this come up with ridiculously outdated or crazy ideas but... i think it's a pretty damn good idea, or at least i like it a lot.

i think that the catching up issue is one of the most important things atm at blizzards hq.

[yjmark]

Honestly - I like this idea. It would actually keep other expansions relevant too.

The biggest issue I think you will run into is the perception of progression power. If you complete 1 expansion, then start on another....do you lose power so that you are at the same level as anyone starting that expansion? Or will you be overpowered to roflstomp it?

I know Blizz is hesitant on reducing people's power since it feels like backwards progression. I'm sure there is a solution - I just can't think of it off the top of my head right now.

[xanzul]

This is completely and totally unnecessar. I have yet to see one single new player claim there is too much content to do. Most of them are able to work on out their own what they want to do and when. Most just enjoy the game and do what they want.

[huth]

Do you have any proof that the problem you attempt to solve is actually worth bothering with?

[SherbertLand]

Do you have any proof that the problem you attempt to solve is actually worth bothering with?

It's just an idea, calm down.

[Golden Yak]

Rather neat idea and put together very nicely. Seems to be set up so that it won't feel like a step backwards even if you go through MoP first and then back to do BC stuff. If your stats are being adjusted each time then it will simply seem like starting a fresh batch of content that your character must work through.

Heirlooms and XP bonuses are really what's currently softening the blow in this case. But you have to admit that should we ever reach ridiculous numbers of expansions, there will need to be some kind of system that speeds people through it without being something ridiculous, like boosting XP to such a degree that a dozen quests in Hellfire Penninsula will get you to level 70.

This is completely and totally unnecessar. I have yet to see one single new player claim there is too much content to do. Most of them are able to work on out their own what they want to do and when. Most just enjoy the game and do what they want.

He's talking about players that haven't joined at all yet because they are daunted by the amount of content and purchases they would need to make.

I have no idea what the numbers are on this, but I know that such folk exist - I've spoken to several who would be interested in WoW but for all the time it would take.

[Gnomeschool]

The biggest issue I think you will run into is the perception of progression power. If you complete 1 expansion, then start on another....do you lose power so that you are at the same level as anyone starting that expansion? Or will you be overpowered to roflstomp it?

I know Blizz is hesitant on reducing people's power since it feels like backwards progression. I'm sure there is a solution - I just can't think of it off the top of my head right now.

It's a bit tricky, but ultimately it does seem like Blizzard wants to make gear or content scaling a bigger part of the game. I remember reading something very recently in a blue post about making old raids scale up, and while it didn't sound like they were planning on doing it in the near future it did have the tone of at least wishful thinking on their part. I think it's a possibility.

I can't say exactly how I would do it, but ideally when you played a particular expac's content your character would progress there independently from other expansions. It could be as simple as having a PvP Power-like stat that would increase with Frost, Fel, etc. levels, and make you more powerful against the locals. You would still feel that sense of progression in each area, and you would have to match the Frost level (or whatever) of your targets to stand toe-to-toe.

Hopefully somebody out there has a more complete idea of how to handle that.

This is completely and totally unnecessar. I have yet to see one single new player claim there is too much content to do. Most of them are able to work on out their own what they want to do and when. Most just enjoy the game and do what they want.

Do you have any proof that the problem you attempt to solve is actually worth bothering with?

We might know very different people, or I might have explained the problem poorly. In my experience there are certainly a ton of people who refuse to play WoW for exactly this reason.

To be honest though, it doesn't matter if there is a problem there or not, because Blizzard is already doing a lot of things to counter the issue. Even if it doesn't exist, they continue to change the game to account for it. It's the way they have gone about it that I think feels strange now, and if a new approach could do the job better I would be interested in exploring that. I don't think it was ever a very elegant solution to begin with.

With the way the problem is handled currently-- by giving players all kinds of experience boosts in older content-- it just starts to get a bit weird. At the moment if you quest in a low-level zone you will probably see your quests turn grey before you complete the area, and I can imagine that after a couple more expansions it will get even stranger. Imagine walking into a new zone, doing one quick round of quests, and having to move on because you now outlevel the content. It makes the content feel very irrelevant, and the questing experience becomes clunky and disjointed. It just doesn't seem like a sustainable approach.

A lot of players won't care about something like that, because they just grind dungeons or find other ways to level. I play more that way myself, but I'm trying to flesh out an idea that would solve the problem without taking anything away from other types of playstyles.

[Kissme]

Or, at a certain point, they could just allow heroes to start at a higher level point (similar to the way DKs did) with a small tutorial zone that teaches the player how to play with all the abilities they gained all at once rather than over time.

For example, a warrior starts at level 83 waking up from a coma in a medic's camp. He's a casualty of the bombing of Theramore, but he survived (alliance version). The tutorial zone grants two levels through various "learn your class" mechanics and quests and has a few cutscenes to introduce the player to important lore. Then at the end of it he gets shipped of to Pandaria to join the struggle. Nice, simple, quick.

Downside is that the player doesn't get to experience the old content, making the Cata investment in redesigning the old world a waste, but it has the advantage of skipping most of the levelling process period. Combined with dropping the cost for all old expansion to one lump cost of 10 or 20 bucks it would be a good way to allow new players not to be daunted by the grind to max level without having to drastically rework the way levelling and character tuning works in the game.

The content has always been irrelevant once the expansion is done and has always been a chore to do if you don't do it while it's current. Reworking that as the OP suggested might be great in that it would render the old content relevant again, but the reward to effort invested is questionable at best. Blizzard can't afford to rework all the old content again at the expense of new content development. That was one of the biggest problems in Cata, and one I'm sure they aren't eager to repeat.

Basically, I agree that there is an ever increasingly daunting hill to climb for the new player looking to enter the game, but changing the way the hill works or changing the slope of the hill seems a poor substitute for just starting them higher on the hill.

[BeastmasterGuardian]

Most people feel the same way about games where their friends are already level capped and they have to start from scratch. Every other MMORPG, FPS, or other type of multiplayer will always have someone new and someone maxxed. Taking someone from 60 to 85 without having to experience the dungeons, the raids, or the content, essentially is like rolling a DK. Skip 1-58 and move on. Personally, the DK model was a poor choice. They should have made you level a toon to 55 and then choose to keep it as is, or turn it into a DK. Even though this is just a "thought", interesting, but not very realistic. People who actually leveled 1 or more lvl 90s already have to deal with RaF and SoR kids who have no idea how to use 1/2 their spells or rotation. Let's just smile and nod at this and move past it

[stumpy]

Sounds like Guild Wars, but I think it's a bit too much of a paradigm shift away from WoW's system to be workable without rebooting as a whole new game. How would endgame raiding work, given that we're accustomed to continual growth in power via gear even after hitting the cap? How would that translate from one expansion to the next, when you're ending up at essentially the same level of power at the end of each one?

[Kelimbror]

Well thought out, so I will respectfully have to say I hate it

I like the style of leveling in games, regardless of how monumental it seems. If you are actually hearing/talking to people stating this as a reason why they won't play, then it is your responsibility to tell them how easy it is to accomplish those feats. Blizzard has done their job, which not a lot of MMOs do, and rapidly increased the rate at which you can go through content.

Through RAF, guild perks, and just the reduction in leveling xp and boost in rewarded xp, it is almost trivial to level in this game. The problem exists in communicating this to potential players. Since they have nothing to compare it to, it is up to people playing the game to tell them how easy it is.

All of these proposed changes are convoluted and would not be received well by any new players to a game. The linear systems we see everywhere (even in GW2 where it's not supposed to matter as much) is a concept that can be grasped by the majority of people.

[Gnomeschool]

Taking someone from 60 to 85 without having to experience the dungeons, the raids, or the content, essentially is like rolling a DK. Skip 1-58 and move on. Personally, the DK model was a poor choice. They should have made you level a toon to 55 and then choose to keep it as is, or turn it into a DK. Even though this is just a "thought", interesting, but not very realistic. People who actually leveled 1 or more lvl 90s already have to deal with RaF and SoR kids who have no idea how to use 1/2 their spells or rotation. Let's just smile and nod at this and move past it

I get that argument, but I also think that learning to play your class is more a matter of the pacing with which you get new skills and the way the content asks you to make use of them, not just how many different zones you've been to. With the updates to the old world in Cataclysm, and the few dungeons they have gotten around to improving so far, I would say that you learn more from 1-60 than you do leveling through Outland. I feel that a player who has leveled to 60 is ready for the Jade Forest, and they will learn more in Pandaria.

There will always be less experienced players, and people who just can't wrap their heads around certain things, but I'm not sure that questing in Zangarmarsh is going to be a big difference maker for them. Things like the Proving Grounds should hopefully do a lot more for those players than anything else can currently.

How would endgame raiding work, given that we're accustomed to continual growth in power via gear even after hitting the cap? How would that translate from one expansion to the next, when you're ending up at essentially the same level of power at the end of each one?

This is one of the quirks that I can't claim to have a great answer for yet. Gear scaling is one option, and having enemies that are effected by your expac-specific levels would be another idea. You could also get more than just a talent point from each expansion, or current expansions could have a different set of rules. I'd have to think about it more.

Through RAF, guild perks, and just the reduction in leveling xp and boost in rewarded xp, it is almost trivial to level in this game.

This is actually the problem, for some.

[Golden Yak]

Through RAF, guild perks, and just the reduction in leveling xp and boost in rewarded xp, it is almost trivial to level in this game. The problem exists in communicating this to potential players. Since they have nothing to compare it to, it is up to people playing the game to tell them how easy it is.

This is a shame really, because it means people blast through the first 1/4 of an expansion's content and then ignore the rest in their rush to get to the current stuff. A system that allows people to bypass it entirely if they wish, but grants rewards for going through all of it, whilst making it challenging enough to not be boring? I don't know, there's something there.

[Kelimbror]

A system that allows people to bypass it entirely if they wish, but grants rewards for going through all of it, whilst making it challenging enough to not be boring? I don't know, there's something there.

Oh I don't disagree with that at all, but that's kinda what they have hinted at for years with Path of the Titans that got scrapped. It's just something that should be added into the current system, not overhauling the system.

The way it would have to work beyond just the achievements you get for it now would have to be all cosmetic and non affective on gameplay. Otherwise it would become mandatory. That's kinda another issue for how this presentation goes. You really can't tie class abilities or anything that gives someone an advantage over someone else in such a literal way to something that should be optional.

Definitely cosmetic, achievement oriented, and possible currency rewarding would be the way to go. It would be a great feature that way.

Though the one other caveat is that people who already experienced the game as it progressed naturally would miss out on all of this and that would not go over well at all.

[Gnomeschool]

Though the one other caveat is that people who already experienced the game as it progressed naturally would miss out on all of this and that would not go over well at all.

I think current characters at maxlevel would simply have credit for completing every expansion pack, since they have. I don't see any reason they would miss out on anything.

[BeastmasterGuardian]

I get that argument, but I also think that learning to play your class is more a matter of the pacing with which you get new skills and the way the content asks you to make use of them, not just how many different zones you've been to. With the updates to the old world in Cataclysm, and the few dungeons they have gotten around to improving so far, I would say that you learn more from 1-60 than you do leveling through Outland. I feel that a player who has leveled to 60 is ready for the Jade Forest, and they will learn more in Pandaria.

There will always be less experienced players, and people who just can't wrap their heads around certain things, but I'm not sure that questing in Zangarmarsh is going to be a big difference maker for them. Things like the Proving Grounds should hopefully do a lot more for those players than anything else can currently.

Think of it as:

Crawling - Classic
Walking - TBC
Running - Wrath
Leaping - Cata
Flying - MoP

I am not sure I want to run a dungeon with someone who just stopped crawling and started flying.

[Gnomeschool]

Think of it as:

Crawling - Classic
Walking - TBC
Running - Wrath
Leaping - Cata
Flying - MoP

I am not sure I want to run a dungeon with someone who just stopped crawling and started flying.

I don't disagree with that, but it's an arbitrary line you've drawn. It probably isn't always true that players suck during TBC and soar majestically as soon as they get to Pandaria. The sooner a player is presented with interesting abilities and challenges, and competition, the sooner they care to learn more about how to play their class.

But that's not the point, so much. You're imagining that everything would be the same as it is right now, but that doesn't have to be the case. It could be true that the experience gains and difficulty of content would go unchanged, or it could be easier, or it could be more difficult. The time investment to get through the old world could hypothetically be just as great as reaching level 85 is today.

We're discussing the idea, not voting on whether to implement everything in my example tomorrow. If you dislike the idea at its most basic that's one thing, but if you think there needs to be a better way to engage and educate players we could talk about how to make that better within my wacky model.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

It's not just a content problem, but a consumer mentality problem, and maybe a psychological problem. Even though Blizzard has made it easier and cheaper to obtain the expansions and level up, it feels like an unwieldy project that a lot of people are hesitant to even consider. From a new player's perspective they have to buy World of Warcraft in four parts, while paying a subscription, and then there are five entire games spanning eight years to play through just to catch up and join their friends. They don't even really know how long it takes to level, they just know that there are a lot of steps involved.

In my opinion the current expansion model feels antiquated, or at least a bit awkward.

A la carte expansion model is intimating in itself. EQ2 combines all their yearly expansions into one box, so a player can play all for one price. It's a beautiful concept.

Secondly, the leveling from 1 to 90 now is getting pretty long. When MMOs now encourage having more toons (and Blizzard makes it's money on folks leveling) being inundated with leveling even 5 more levels becomes a chore. I would love to play them at 90, but despite 2 others at 85, I just don't feel like I want to level them to 90, to go through the same grind. Ideally I'd prefer one toon that can do all the tradeskills, as then I'll be even more motivated to play -- as one of my most favorite activities in games like EQ2 was harvesting (was one of the top harvesters in that game). I can't harvest at all on Kevyne, as we're limited to 2 choices, where in EQ2 anyone can harvest without limits.

Blizzard introduced a new concept with turning meat/vegetables into tokens, perhaps the same can be done with crafting with ores/plants. That can solve the database storage problems (let alone space problems of storing mats). They can also always adjust how many mats are required to make items to compensate for more players harvesting. Knock 2 birds down with one stone, and give traditional MMOers something to do with their time that feels rewarding (finding rares are fun in it's own right).

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

No, wouldn't work. Not only would it require several Cataclysm's worth of work to revamp the expansions, but your idea of rewards is still going to require players to buy them all to do any endgame.