Multiple High-End Progressing Guilds Benching Mages

[Lanesia]

I'm pretty sure anytime any class has been sat for DPS it's never actually had an effect on 99% of the WoW raiding population because 99% of the WoW population isn't raiding in that kind of an environment. Yes I made up the 99% number but I think everyone knows what I mean!

[Deleted]

Our mage is still doing competitive DPS. He isn't doing 20% more than everyone else (well... most of the time), but he is still top on most fights.

[DeadMenRaiding]

Ours has pulled back into line with our other top dps toons. Mages are not nerfed, neither are they OP any more. They're still higly valuable raid dps and worth having in the raid.

[Deleted]

It's a shame that people think their class is useless if it's not topping meters by a mile. Most of these players however aren't in a top 30 guild where things like this actually matter.

[Karazee]

also, "sunwelling" of the mages -> mages were fine standing outside sunwell, anything else was either urban mythology or bad players with excuses.

There, that is more accurate now.

Back on topic, the problem with Fire is what we all already knew it would be. Blizzard announced their design intent for fire mages is to have a non-negligible RNG factor. They liked the RNG nature of the spec. The problem is that you cannot balance around it effectively. If you balance for a well-played fire mage to be in line with a well-played <insert any other class/spec>, because of the RNG, a luckier fire mage who is just as well-played will get higher on the bell curve because of the nature of how the RNG affects fire mages.

The only two things they can do is nerf the RNG or nerf the balance.
1) They nerf the RNG or the result of the RNG - lucky mages don't get any more lucky or more reward than other classes. Blizz has already stated their design intent for Fire is to have RNG play a factor. If they remove it, then what is the design intent now?
2) They nerf the dps of an "Averagy lucky fire mage" so that the high-end lucky is more in line with other classes. Problem here is if you're not lucky, you are already behind.

And none of this takes into account that the variance also affects bottom-end: a fire mage with poor luck will be further behind because of the reliance on the RNG. A fire mage's standard deviation is just much larger, due to no fault of their own. I remember someone did that data compilation last year and it realy showed the boat fire is in. It's a really poor position to have to be put in and I wouldn't be surprised if most raiding mages are sick of it. That's the draw to Frost and Arcane - if you play well you get rewarded and if you play poorly, you don't. Not "if you play well you might get rewarded, but might not, and if you play poorly, you might still get rewarded anyway."

[iceberg265]

also, "sunwelling" of the mages -> mages were fine in sunwell, anything else was either urban mythology or bad players with excuses.

You obviously did not play the game during Sunwell time.

[Deleted]

I'm pretty sure anytime any class has been sat for DPS it's never actually had an effect on 99% of the WoW raiding population because 99% of the WoW population isn't raiding in that kind of an environment. Yes I made up the 99% number but I think everyone knows what I mean!

Problem is that the vast majority of the short-sighted morons our there take what the minority of the best guilds sometime do (with reason) as exactly they must do in "their" own guild. That's what i name the "stupid copycat" syndrom. Being unable to see beyond the veil of facts to see the reasoning and the different factors in play leading to the conclusion.

And seing "their" raidspot as more important than the guild actually killing a boss before others.

[EvreliaGaming]

Kungens guild is not high end. Why would people be concerned with what he is doing. He needs money so he plays WoW. You can be in Nihilum which is his guild for a 5 dollar donation.

Whilst we're not "high end", we are still top 50 despite being only one month old. And no, you can't buy a raider spot in Nihilum. His sub option is for social spots.

[JimmyMcNulty]

You obviously did not play the game during Sunwell time.

I played in sunwell times, just because my experience in those times is different from yours (and some other people on the forums aswell) does not mean you're any more right. I never felt underpowered compared to other classes in those times, and was topping meters on several sunwell encounters - and no, "you played with bad people" won't be a valid excuse, alot of them were on top of their class. I am annoyed on how people bitch about the sunwell era for no particular reason, thats why i posted that comment.
And to be on topic, yes the nerfs were needed, in the next tier mages would go absolutely off the scale on dps if nothing got changed.

[HatredAU]

Mages were balanced, not nerfed. We've seen no reason to bench them, They still do competitive DPS. Also AFAIK Nihilum aren't as high end right now as they were before ensidia.

[Deleted]

mage is fine

[Dracodraco]

Anyone looking to Nihilum to find out what "you're supposed to do" regarding setups, are in for a horrible surprise. Considering all the "early" starts Nihilum has had (out of the 17 kills you can see a time on ATM, 4 of them were done before "normal" raid hours), and the added raid days, in their short lifespan, they might be just shy of the top 50 - but the raiding hours to achieve that is incredible. Along with the bragging of meaningless things (like their "EU first terrace normal", because they started 6-7 hours before their raid schedule), the guild really does seem alot like a joke to me and alot of my friends, personally.

Kungen is living off of his old fame from the glory days of Nihilum/Ensidia, and is abusing the name of a formerly respectable guild - and as such, he's been able to get tons of people to join him, and to pick and chose whatever he wanted for his setups. As fire mages have been retardedly overpowered, he's stacked mages - why wouldn't he? If they're the strongest, and he has them aviable, it only makes sense. My guild has had just short of 10 apps from people that's been in Nihilum by now, either stating that they were benched for a week because they were mass-recruited, or because they simply weren't "powerfull" enough at the time (healing priests, for instance). One of them said that the 2 weeks he spent there, they barely ever took any healing priests - now they have two in for everything, with 3 on their most recent kill of Lei Shi.

So, to stop all my rambling - mage's dps has been brought in line with other classes now. Atleast ours is doing fine with Frost. There's no need to stack 3-5 mages, thus they have more balanced raid setups. But for a guild with the "fame" that nihilum has, and the access to class-stacking, not doing it would be stupid.

[Gsara]

mages are fine, now instead of being 10-15% ahead on everything, they are where they belong. Kungen is a washed up old hack who only plays this game to make money off his stream, his guild is not a "high-end" progressing guild, and is not a valid source of information regarding class balance.

And yet, with some mediocre players, still doing better than 99% of the raiding community.

[Rustjive]

And yet, with some mediocre players, still doing better than 99% of the raiding community.

Everything is relative.

[silverhatred]

Oh noes, you only have 2 specs at the top of the sims now instead of 3.

[Nathane]

mages are fine, now instead of being 10-15% ahead on everything, they are where they belong. Kungen is a washed up old hack who only plays this game to make money off his stream, his guild is not a "high-end" progressing guild, and is not a valid source of information regarding class balance.

Kungen is one if the best players in WoW, he has been around for a long time.

[Gsara]

Everything is relative.

I can agree with that statement.

[crakerjack]

Well this is my ideology... When you compete to be world first like they do... they play at a higher caliber than you'd actually think. They don't have a main... they have Mains. They have lvl 90's of every class on their realm, so it's not like it makes a difference if they're on their mage and it gets benched... the player doesn't get benched, just that particular character, but then the player will hop on w/e toon it is that they require. So if you're complaining about being a mage and not getting into a raid because the raid leader decides to try out a different combination, you have no right to complain... progressive guilds want to progress and they aren't going to feel sympathetic towards you just because you want to be in there... if you plan on being hardcore, you have to act the part and have more than just 1 toon that you do dailies on. It's not even like mages are in a bad place, mages are perfectly fine the way they are, it's just people don't know how to learn their class for themselves... they rely too heavily upon websites to teach them their class and simple 5 button rotation. If you want to be hardcore, work for it and learn the game inside out.

[Alahondor]

mage is fine

Thank you for your incredible contribution to this discussion.

[theyanger]

Thank you for your incredible contribution to this discussion.

He's right, what else needs to be said on the subject? If Kungen is benching mages, his mages suck. Period. Mages are very well off still. Learn to play other specs.