Why its bad/good to click?

[Rinoa]

As long as you're using the keyboard or mouse to execute a command...it's clicking.

Remove the keyboard and/or mouse, you can't execute the commands anymore.

We all do click.

No. Clicking is the act of pointing your mouse at an object or icon on the screen and then clicking either left or right mousebutton. Do not confuse it with pressing keys on the keyboard, which is something entirely different. Though, I'd love it if you answered my question - Is the fact that practically all (I don't know of a single one) top players in any RTS or MMO keybind their skills for quicker gameplay merely a coincidence, a product of mere chance?

[Kevyne-Shandris]

I'd say around 30% of gladiators are healers. Not every gladiator team is the conventional 2 dps/1 healer setup, so it's not exactly one third. And yes, everyone has personal preferences.

More like 10%, especially now since arena is more about 2min matches than what it once allowed (arena types whined that having heals extended the matches, so now the matches will even auto-close if not completed in time).

Since you say that everyone has preferences, is what I should take from that sentence that you believe it's a coincidence that clicking is practically non-existant at the upper levels of gameplay? That it has nothing to do with the performance of keybinding compared to clicking?

People playing at that level are:

1. Usually long-term WoW players and used to how they played the game (e.g., mouseovers for example pre-Cata).
2. Prefer it due to devices they use (e.g., 10+ button mouses/controllers).

The misnomer here is that you MUST keybind to perform. That isn't the case. Those you see having a problem with it all are usually new players who are using the game defaults in the first place.

As you notice, those gladiators and top raiders don't use the default UI. They have custom UIs and addons to help.

---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 10:46 PM ----------

No. Clicking is the act of pointing your mouse at an object or icon on the screen and then clicking either left or right mousebutton. Do not confuse it with pressing keys on the keyboard, which is something entirely different. Though, I'd love it if you answered my question - Is the fact that practically all (I don't know of a single one) top players in any RTS or MMO keybind their skills for quicker gameplay merely a coincidence, a product of mere chance?

Nope. It's still clicking. You still need the keyboard to execute the command. And the placement of 1 or 6 or 9 key is no different than the placement of a HS/FoL/HR next to a healbox, for example. Still got to move that hand and click something.

[Rinoa]

Actually most gladiators play with the standard UI or something very close to it because addons aren't allowed in tournaments and they want to be tournament ready. The upper echelon of gladiators, that is. And no, it's not 10%, it's rather close to 30% as I said.

Yes. People playing at a high level of a game is usually a long term player unless the game is new. Long term players - and especially the best of the best - gravitate towards what works the best, what gives the best results and lets them be as good as possible without having things like game controls limit their gameplay. It's really rather simple to see why top players do not click. Depending on the game it's either not time efficient or limiting to your character controls, such as movement.

[Valkari]

Nope. It's still clicking. You still need the keyboard to execute the command. And the placement of 1 or 6 or 9 key is no different than the placement of a HS/FoL/HR next to a healbox, for example. Still got to move that hand and click something.

The entire point of the thread is the question of whether you use your mouse to left or right click on icons on your toolbar, or use your other hand to hit keyboard buttons for the same effect, thus freeing up your mouse for movement. Combining the two into a single word is needlessly confusing the subject...

[melodramocracy]

No.

After a switch from clicking to keybinds there is a transition-period where you'll perform worse than before. For some people that period lasts longer than for others, it can be smoothed, etc, but the fact is that switching to keybinds will initially hurt your performance.

Is that worth it? Depends how much time/effort you invest in the game - how casual you are.

My ilvl is 453, after hitting 90 in less than a week, so you can imagine how rarely I do a dungeon - and can't even get into LFR. I have everything keybound, but if I were a clicker, it would make no sense for me to switch.

That's why when you switch over, you take your 3 or 4 most used abilities, and bind them only, instead of throwing 20 or so binds into your playstyle all at once. Use them until it becomes muscle memory, and then add more. You shouldn't see any drop in performance at all.

[Tucci]

As long as you're using the keyboard or mouse to execute a command...it's clicking.

Remove the keyboard and/or mouse, you can't execute the commands anymore.

We all do click.

Lol I'm sorry but it's hard to follow what you're trying to say sometimes. You are not playing to your full potential if you click. Using an addon to mouseover people and click to heal without actually targeting them is better than normal clicking but it's still gimping you. You have to keyboard turn a lot of the time and trying to run, avoid stuff and heal isn't going to be fun. As far as the normal Blizzard UI and pvp goes, you cannot perform well in pvp without binds, you have to do more than just heal as a healer. And the top players in the world use no addons whatsoever because they aren't allowed to in tournaments. Also, the lowest rank of a poster on MMO champ is "Keyboard Turner" because that's what you have to do when you click.

[melodramocracy]

As long as you're using the keyboard or mouse to execute a command...it's clicking.

Remove the keyboard and/or mouse, you can't execute the commands anymore.

We all do click.

There isn't a valid point anywhere in this statement. Clicking is the phrase coined for using your mouse pointer to execute a command on the screen. Keybinds are independent of the mouse pointer on the screen, and don't even require a graphic representation of the spell on the screen to be carried out.

[Tucci]

Nope. It's still clicking. You still need the keyboard to execute the command. And the placement of 1 or 6 or 9 key is no different than the placement of a HS/FoL/HR next to a healbox, for example. Still got to move that hand and click something.

No, it's only clicking when you use the mouse, lol. I'm sorry but you have a lot to learn. The whole point of binds is so you can pay attention to your surroundings and act quickly WITHOUT taking the time to point the mouse to any sort of button on the screen. You move the fingers on your left hand a mile a minute WITHOUT looking at anything except what's happening around you and your raid frames if you're healing. If you're doing any sort of clicking on screen, you're automatically slower and less aware. You're literally staring at your buttons, having to CONSTANTLY point and click, point and click. And on top of it all, you're not going to want to use multiple macros. I'm now talking about pve because in pvp there's not even anything close to an argument to be had.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Actually most gladiators play with the standard UI or something very close to it because addons aren't allowed in tournaments and they want to be tournament ready. The upper echelon of gladiators, that is. And no, it's not 10%, it's rather close to 30% as I said.

Because they're forced to use the standard UI. -_-

But it doesn't change a thing, because those not playing in tournaments can use addons to redefine their UI layout to be much more efficient.

---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 11:03 PM ----------

No, it's only clicking when you use the mouse, lol. I'm sorry but you have a lot to learn.

Ever heard the phrase of "clicking the keyboard" before?

Yeah, got a lot to learn, indeed!

[Rinoa]

Because they're forced to use the standard UI. -_-

But it doesn't change a thing, because those not playing in tournaments can use addons to redefine their UI layout to be much more efficient.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Yes, everyone can use AddOns. And since the really good players that are going to tournaments still get rank 1 titles consistently I don't really see the lack of addons holding them back much either.

How is this relevant to clicking not being as good as keybinding though? I thought it was obvious at this point.

[Tucci]

[I]

Ever heard the phrase of "clicking the keyboard" before?

Yeah, got a lot to learn, indeed!

That has literally nothing to do with actual clicking. If someone says that, it's because they don't have anything better to call it. You don't use the keyboard to move your mouse pointer to your on screen buttons and press them. You use the keyboard as a shortcut to your abilities. It cuts out that whole slow part where you have to look down at your abilities, point to one, and click on it, possibly having to immediately move the cursor over a few inches and click another, and another, all the while staring at your keys.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Yes, everyone can use AddOns. And since the really good players that are going to tournaments still get rank 1 titles consistently I don't really see the lack of addons holding them back much either.

How is this relevant to clicking not being as good as keybinding though? I thought it was obvious at this point.

The point you refuse to see is you WANT to defend using keybinds. You refuse to see how/why that's not an issue with addons that make clicking a non-issue in performance. The healboxes healers use is a prime example of addons that make clicking a non-issue. Using the default raid frames to heal is inefficient, it offers none of the functions of a dedicated healbox. But if you used a healbox, clicking isn't an issue.

Since addons are a mainstay of playing WoW, using your tournament example is moving the goal posts. As most don't even care to play in tournaments (and those into performance aren't kneecapped with using the DEFAULT UI). They use their addons and do pretty darn well with them.

BTW, gladiators do use addons...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pEqz7l_ku4

(WTB a team on Shandris that allows their healer to actually heal out of LoS...not midfield!)


---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 11:32 PM ----------

That has literally nothing to do with actual clicking.

Keep trying to defend using keybinds. But you won't redefine clicking.

[Rinoa]

Of course I want to defend using keybinds, if I didn't then I simply wouldn't be here. I am also attempting to make clickers that may not be aware that keybinding is simply better realise that there are some very small and simple steps they can take if they are interested in improving their performance long-term.

[Tucci]

The point you refuse to see is you WANT to defend using keybinds. You refuse to see how/why that's not an issue with addons that make clicking a non-issue in performance. The healboxes healers use is a prime example of addons that make clicking a non-issue. Using the default raid frames to heal is inefficient, it offers none of the functions of a dedicated healbox. But if you used a healbox, clicking isn't an issue.

Since addons are a mainstay of playing WoW, using your tournament example is moving the goal posts. As most don't even care to play in tournaments (and those into performance aren't kneecapped with using the DEFAULT UI). They use their addons and do pretty darn well with them.

---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 11:32 PM ----------



Keep trying to defend using keybinds. But you won't redefine clicking.

Lol you're the one who's trying to redefine clicking. Pretty sure no one here but you thinks clicking means using your keyboard? Clicking sounds made by a cherry MX blue keyboard don't count, lol. Are you also going to defend walking backwards and turning with your keyboard? Because that's what comes with clicking. Either way, you're gimping yourself, both in clicking and relying on addons that much. I just wish you could see it.

[Deleted]

wow isint that hard game (pve wise) so that 0.1 sec which u gain while keybind isint that important, u can achieve same even with clicking

[Tucci]

Of course I want to defend using keybinds, if I didn't then I simply wouldn't be here. I am also attempting to make clickers that may not be aware that keybinding is simply better realise that there are some very small and simple steps they can take if they are interested in improving their performance long-term.

Lol me too, it's so frustrating to see people defending the number one worst thing you could possibly do in a game like this and refuse to take any advice. I've been there, most people who just start playing make this mistake, some carry it on for years completely unaware of the problem. Worst part is they're always trying to better their dps or healing meanwhile their biggest problem is something they don't actually believe is a problem.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Of course I want to defend using keybinds, if I didn't then I simply wouldn't be here. I am also attempting to make clickers that may not be aware that keybinding is simply better realise that there are some very small and simple steps they can take if they are interested in improving their performance long-term.

Which means if you're so biased to understand another viewpoint, it's also pointless for discussion. It's more a debate, a debate that's equally pointless.

You'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Tucci]

wow isint that hard game (pve wise) so that 0.1 sec which u gain while keybind isint that important, u can achieve same even with clicking

It's not 0.1 sec and you're staring at your keys, you literally have to. It's not just important, it's the MOST important thing, period. You're not going to find top raiding guilds full of clickers.

---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 11:48 PM ----------

Which means if you're so biased to understand another viewpoint, it's also pointless for discussion. It's more a debate, a debate that's equally pointless.

You'll just have to agree to disagree.

There is no debate, clicking is bad. Like I said before, explain why the lowest rank of a poster is Keyboard Turner...

[Rinoa]

Which means if you're so biased to understand another viewpoint, it's also pointless for discussion. It's more a debate, a debate that's equally pointless.

You'll just have to agree to disagree.

It's kind of like the 'debate' in the USA about intelligent design vs Darwin's theory of evolution. The answer is so blindingly obvious that I don't understand why it's even a debate. =P

[Zantos]

Clicking isn't as bad as everyone says. I click and I beat multiple key binders easy. That being said, clicking isn't always best. Like with healing. I cannot click and keep everyone alive. It just isn't doable. Tanking, I click my damage abilities but have my cds keybound. The same for dpsing on any toon. Click my core abilities and keybind my cds. Reason is that the cds are off the gcd. So, I do a mix of both. Purely clicking would be bad. Clicking is not doable for heals. It is doable for tanking And dpsing. Do I have problems moving and dpsing while clicking? Not one bit. In fact, I use the wasd keys to move, so keybinding while moving would prove hard for me.

Over all, it can be just as effective. People say "Well, you are slower then if you keybind". To that I just laugh in their face as I beat them. I do not click every game out there. Some I keybind. However, you really can click to dps in wow just fine and switch to a keybind when needed. So, just clicking is bad. Being able to switch between the two, ie clicking while staying still and keybinds while moving, really is good.