Did MoP kill raiding?

[mosely]

I was looking at my server's page on WoWProgress and was shocked by how few guilds had even killed one raid boss this tier. So I looked up how many guilds were raiding on my server back in tier 13, and that number was about three times larger. Interest in raiding had dropped to 36% of the the previous tier. And we can't blame the decline on LFR because that existed in tier 13 as well.

I was curious whether this trend was restricted to just my server, or if other servers were seeing a drop in the number of guilds participating in raid content. I looked up the top 5 ranked servers (on US realms), checked how many guilds had killed at least one boss for Tier 14 and Tier 13, then calculated the percentage of guilds raiding this tier compared with the previous tier. Each of these servers had 2/3 to 1/2 as many raiding guilds this tier compared to last (results tabulated below). Does anyone have any examples where their server's raiding participation has increased with this expansion? Or can we objectively conclude that MoP is a worse expansion for raiding than Cataclysm?

Remember: we're two months into the expansion at this point -- far beyond the point where the excuse "Oh my guild is still gearing up to raid" is valid.

Top 5 Ranked US Realms, Guilds with >= 1 Tier 14 Kill / Guilds with >= 1 Tier 13 Kill (%Percentage)
Illidan 225 / 477 (47%)
Frostmourne 200 / 386 (52%)
Sargeras 177 / 262 (68%)
Azralon 121 / 245 (49%)
Mal'Ganis 180 / 302 (60%)

[Elysara]

No

Vanilla Didn't
BC Didn't
Wrath Didn't
Cata Didn't
MoP Didn't

And no other expansion will.

I'm sorry but really that is all there is to say about this, No expansion has killed raiding and none will...

[Enthusiastic Steward]

For this we also need samples of raiding progression for each expansion at two months in, or your claim is meaningless.

[mosely]

No

Vanilla Didn't
BC Didn't
Wrath Didn't
Cata Didn't
MoP Didn't

And no other expansion will.

I'm sorry but really that is all there is to say about this, No expansion has killed raiding and none will...

Well I mean... at least you present a formidable argument to back up your statement.

[Jantasir]

I was looking at my server's page on WoWProgress and was shocked by how few guilds had even killed one raid boss this tier. So I looked up how many guilds were raiding on my server back in tier 13, and that number was about three times larger. Interest in raiding had dropped to 36% of the the previous tier. And we can't blame the decline on LFR because that existed in tier 13 as well.

I was curious whether this trend was restricted to just my server, or if other servers were seeing a drop in the number of guilds participating in raid content. I looked up the top 5 ranked servers (on US realms), checked how many guilds had killed at least one boss for Tier 14 and Tier 13, then calculated the percentage of guilds raiding this tier compared with the previous tier. Each of these servers had 2/3 to 1/2 as many raiding guilds this tier compared to last (results tabulated below). Does anyone have any examples where their server's raiding participation has increased with this expansion? Or can we objectively conclude that MoP is a worse expansion for raiding than Cataclysm?

Remember: we're two months into the expansion at this point -- far beyond the point where the excuse "Oh my guild is still gearing up to raid" is valid.

Top 5 Ranked US Realms, Guilds with >= 1 Tier 14 Kill / Guilds with >= 1 Tier 13 Kill (%Percentage)
Illidan 225 / 477 (47%)
Frostmourne 200 / 386 (52%)
Sargeras 177 / 262 (68%)
Azralon 121 / 245 (49%)
Mal'Ganis 180 / 302 (60%)

Really, comparing the end tier of an expansion compared to the beginning tier of the next is no way to evaluate your findings..

[Deleted]

Well I mean... at least you present a formidable argument to back up your statement.

Does he really need to? Go to wowprogress, and look at the number of guilds with raiding progress. There's all the proof you need that raiding isn't dead. Has it caused a decline in raiding, would be a better question. Raiding isn't dead and will never die until wow itself does.

[Deleted]

It pretty much died in my guild (started declining during the months and months of 4.3 too, but it still happened regularly) which is one of the server's oldest guilds. I notice few other guilds raid, too.

Also, this:

For this we also need samples of raiding progression for each expansion at two months in, or your claim is meaningless.

[beanman12345]

I just checked my server on wowprogress, medium server, 38 guilds have killed at least one boss. maybe your server just sucks.

[Kaleredar]

For this we also need samples of raiding progression for each expansion at two months in, or your claim is meaningless.

Basically, this.

And even if there are fewer people progressing in raids, what does that mean? Does it mean raids are "boring" or "not worth the effort," or does it mean that Blizzard made them "too difficult" or "require too much effort?" If it's either of the last two, both of those things are "improvements" people have been asking for in WoW raids since... well, since people saw others getting Epic gear they thought only they themselves deserved.

[OneSent]

For me? Yes.

But I have noticed an overall, general drop in interest for raiding this expansion. I think LFR has alot to do with it.

When people can curb their appetite for raiding by doing LFR, then they lose the incentive to raid with a guild.

[Taoforums]

Expecting cleared raid content within the first week and heroic modes on the first week of release is what kills raiding.

[drwelfare]

For me? Yes.

But I have noticed an overall, general drop in interest for raiding this expansion. I think LFR has alot to do with it.

When people can curb their appetite for raiding by doing LFR, then they lose the incentive to raid with a guild.

Similar to what I have seen. I see seven alliance guilds on my server that have any type of raid progress

[clevin]

I do think raiding is down in this xpac. Some of that is that it's the start of the xpac vs the end. Some of it is that there's a lot of other stuff to do and some people who raided are doing that other stuff. But I really wonder if LFR is cutting into the casual raiding scene. By 'casual' I mean people who do decent but not blazing progress mostly in normal. So a casual raid guild might be anywhere between 3/6 MSV to 6/6MSV with some bosses down in HoF. For guilds like that who raid a couple nights a week I can see a lot of people LFRing it vs committing to 2 or 3 nights, dealing with wipes, etc.

[Ferocity]

A lot of guilds getting stuck on bosses like Elegon/Garalon. They come to conclusion that they need to farm dailies and LFR and thus moving away from raiding altogether. While for others, who knew that LFR and dailies will be mandatory and who didn't like neither LFR nor dailies, they made their decision even earlier.

We just need more people to yell "dailies and LFR are optional" to make situation even worse

[Porimlys]

There's probably more people content with just doing LFR, idk if that counts as "killing raiding".

[LuminousAether]

LFR is raiding, so I'd have to count that. That said, which expansion are you comparing this to, OP? Vanilla and TBC had notoriously low raid participation figures, I believe less than 1% of players even ENTERED Sunwell Plateau. Naxx 2.0 in Wrath happened because statistically speaking, no one raided Naxx in Vanilla (again, about 1% of players). Wrath bumped up the raiding figures by having a lower barrier to entry as well as normal and hard mode raiding. The first four bosses of ICC 25 man were not really any harder than LFR, for instance.

MoP raiding is considerably tougher than anything we've seen since T11 and before that since TBC, even on normal mode. So that's another reason for lower figures. I'd be more interested in comparing T11 to the current tier in MoP than I would be Firelands or Dragon Soul.

[Buxton McGraff]

There are certainly far fewer pugs.

[Catalept]

Now look at how many people on your server have the Terrace of Spring achievement. Are fewer guilds raiding? Probably. Are fewer people raiding? Definitely not.

Unless LFR isn't raiding... but that argument is difficult to make without resorting to No True Scotsman nonsense.

[Deleted]

Don't forget about server extinction. I play for all my virtual life on just one server but recently swapped faction after coming back to the game (taking a summer break), alliance side there is dead while we dominated during Cata (heck a guild even accomplished some EU firstkills in the early stages). Just have a look at other server: they picture is the same, regulary on faction dies and either the other side growth rapidly or everyone and his mom leaves for a new home.

[mosely]

There's probably more people content with just doing LFR, idk if that counts as "killing raiding".

LFR was available last tier too -- why do the numbers show a decline in normal- and heroic-mode raiding this tier? Do you suppose LFR has gained more traction as a replacement for traditional raiding, instead of just a supplement? Personally, I've switched entirely to LFR.