Former Nazi SS guard fights deportation.

[Palmatum]

Exactly. It's like no one stops to think that the soldiers on the other side of the barrel are more often than not ordinary people that have been brainwashed by propaganda to think, as you point out, the enemy is something less than human and not deserving of being treated like one. Half of them, regardless of Allies or Axis, never had any intention of being soldiers, they were drafted by a government they may or may not have supported to fight for a cause they may or may not believe in.

Indeed. If your country was doing what Nazi Germany was doing, I'd rather make sure I was on the right side of the fence for my family's sake.

A family friend was a Tank Commander in the SS and he's one of the nicest people I know. It's kinda hard to ask questions and be direct about it because I didn't want to vilify him, but what I got back from him was that it seemed inevitable that Germany would win and you better make sure you didn't stand out, do your part and then get on with life.

[Derah]

If I was in his boots (and forced to join the SS in 1939 or whenever he joined), I would have tried to liberate the camp myself or die trying. He did not. He traded his life for the life of thousands of people, thus he should face the consequences.

It's remarkably easy to be a badass online about what you "would have" done decades after the fact, eh? Of course, in reality what you most likely "would have" done was say "Jawohl!" and do exactly as you were told, due to fear for your own life and the life of your family.

Its phrases like this that are worthy of being made signatures :P

[Priestiality]

It all comes down to what are the Germans planning on doing with him?

It's probably time to get over such things. Especially if he has no criminal record.

As someone pointed out in the Israel/Palestine thread, scientists speculate that within 10 years World War 2 will largely be forgotten. The only response that stood out was "WE (Jews) WILL NEVER FORGET THE SEVEN MILLION MURDERED!" It's exactly that kind of rationale that is leading people to call for this mans blood more than 50 years later.

[Deleted]

Your grandpa ever kill any Japs? Boy, mine did. Loads of them. He was a flamethrower operator in the Pacific theater. Lit 'em up and watched 'em burn. At the time, he was happy to do it. They weren't people. They were nameless enemies from a godless, backwards nation. And he absolutely loved hearing them scream as they died. The marines saw nothing wrong with this. That's how a good soldier was supposed to be.

The occupation changed him. My grandfather lived in Japan for some years. Spending time among the Japanese, he realized that they were good, hard working people. They were born, fell in love, had children, and grew old, just like anyone else. They were humans. He told me that during his time in Japan, he grew fond of it's people. He became remorseful for the lives he had taken. But he never once regretted fighting for his country.
He took a sword off the body of a Japanese officer he killed in battle towards the end of the war. At the time, it was a trophy. But I think after his time in Japan, it meant something more to him. I asked him about the sword when I was a child. He told me he had taken it from a brave soldier, and that he wished he could give it back. It wasn't until I was much older that he told me the full story of how he got that sword.

My point is, when I hear about this former nazi, I think of my grandpa.

Uh, nice post man.

[Hyve]

Camp guards did not just guard the camp, they shot those who ventured too near to the perimeter of the camp, they aided and abetted the slaughter that went on within (by virtue of protecting the processes of the camp), and he essentially facilitated the murder of innocent people. If I was in his boots (and forced to join the SS in 1939 or whenever he joined), I would have tried to liberate the camp myself or die trying. He did not. He traded his life for the life of thousands of people, thus he should face the consequences.

A lot of tough talk, for someone who wasn't around at the time, and most likely wouldn't try to liberate the camp.\

On-Topic: People from both sides of the conflicts did horrific things to each other. Many British, American & Canadian (Among others of course) raped and abused thousands of women and men across Europe. Many innocent Germans were shot dead in their homes. I'm not advocating what he did, but you can't just criticise one side when the other was just as abusive.

The Americans locked Japanese Americans in Labour Camps for the entire duration of WW2. The British are the inventors of many of the tools used by the Nazi's to kill their victims. This man was nothing but a Guard. Was he partly to blame? Most likely, but so was everyone involved in WW1 that put together the treaty of versailles.

50 Years on, the Man has most likely lived with the horrors of his crimes every day. You can't handle situations of War on this scale, like your typical murder cases.

[Kalyyn]

You still havent responded properly to:

Nah it's okay, I think I just misunderstood him. His first post appears to have been a sarcastic remark, I think he's actually on our side of this argument.

[MasterHamster]

Is there any satisfaction to be had, throwing a 88 year old in jail?

[Stormcall]

Is there any satisfaction to be had, throwing a 88 year old in jail?

I do believe criminals should be punished regardless of their age, but to me, this guy isn't necessarily a criminal. He was a soldier, guarding what he was instructed to guard. If the Germans and Japanese had gone on to win WW2, and the Japanese decided to prosecute the US soldiers who guarded the hangar where the nuke carrying planes flew from, or the pilots of the planes, would everyone saying "prosecute the guard" still share that viewpoint?

[Letmesleep]

Is there any satisfaction to be had, throwing a 88 year old in jail?

I suppose not if justice was about personal satisfaction. Are you suggesting if James Holmes or Anders Breivik hid somewhere for 50 years that they shouldn't still ultimately be punished for massacring tons of people? If so, then at least you're consistent.

[Kalyyn]

I suppose not if justice was about personal satisfaction. Are you suggesting if James Holmes or Anders Breivik hid somewhere for 50 years that they shouldn't still ultimately be punished for massacring tons of people? If so, then at least you're consistent.

Comparing this man to James Holmes and Anders Breivik is quite an exaggeration.

[Hyve]

I suppose not if justice was about personal satisfaction. Are you suggesting if James Holmes or Anders Breivik hid somewhere for 50 years that they shouldn't still ultimately be punished for massacring tons of people? If so, then at least you're consistent.

But Breivik & Holmes were not in a War situation. While murder can, and does happen in War, never asses it like a typical case back on home soil.

[Letmesleep]

Comparing this man to James Holmes and Anders Breivik is quite an exaggeration.

But Breivik & Holmes were not in a War situation. While murder can, and does happen in War, never asses it like a typical case back on home soil.

While this thread is discussing a specific person, I was merely addressing the notion that there should be an age restriction on justice. There's been multiple discussions going on. Me quoting myself:

I have no idea if this guy was or wasn't a willing participant in a concentration camp, but that's not something we can prove one way or another. On that front I have no opinion.

[Bakis]

Nah it's okay, I think I just misunderstood him. His first post appears to have been a sarcastic remark, I think he's actually on our side of this argument.

Dunno, I really get pissed at opinions simply about physically being at a location somehow make you part of it.
I got no clue if this guard was part or it or not but him just being there does under no circumstance per definition make him gulity.

[Deleted]

Is there any satisfaction to be had, throwing a 88 year old in jail?

Yeah I really struggle to understand. Everyone taking part to a war back then would have been considered guilty judged by today's standard. That's just how things went. Think the allied "prison" camp in North Africa for Germans and Italians were any better? Think the carpet bombing of whole cities in germany was targeting military structures? Think the people of the cities invaded at the end of the war weren't given the "barbarian" treatment?

What are we going to do? Arrest them all?
The man is 88 for fucks sake...
If he would have been a general... But throwing someone in jail cause MAYBE he shot someone from a tower sounds pretty much absolute ridiculousness to me.

[Mayhem]

20 pages, wow

more than this guy i want the ones who made a living out of wars to be held responsible, and i want a worldwide jursidiction against warcrimes that everyone has to obey to

if this old man actually did anything that was against human rights he deserves whatever sentence is appropriate, but more than this man we should hunt down the ones that made money out of wars, that killed without pushing a button or pulling a trigger, regardless of position held or what country they´re from and at least try to learn something out of history

there are multiple posts in this thread representing how everyone 70 years ago obviously had to know everything their government did back then, but 60 years later countries are still being "tricked" into going to war "for a good reason of course"

we´ve learned nothing, and that is just awefull and depressing

[Tradu]

20 pages, wow

more than this guy i want the ones who made a living out of wars to be held responsible, and i want a worldwide jursidiction against warcrimes that everyone has to obey to

if this old man actually did anything that was against human rights he deserves whatever sentence is appropriate, but more than this man we should hunt down the ones that made money out of wars, that killed without pushing a button or pulling a trigger, regardless of position held or what country they´re from and at least try to learn something out of history

there are multiple posts in this thread representing how everyone 70 years ago obviously had to know everything their government did back then, but 60 years later countries are still being "tricked" into going to war "for a good reason of course"

we´ve learned nothing, and that is just awefull and depressing

Pretty sure the US would just be like "lolno" if anybody wanted to enforce international laws upon them, just like they are right now. And then of course complain when others don't follow those laws.

[capitano666]

She said he could have requested a transfer back to the Russian front, where he was initially serving, or that he could have simply walked away from service or defied immoral orders

...so basically the 17 years old should have committed suicide

should've thought twice before killing those innocent people, against your will or not.

except that he didn't

Geiser says he was forced to join the SS in 1942, and that he never killed anyone

[B4ldur]

Indeed. If your country was doing what Nazi Germany was doing, I'd rather make sure I was on the right side of the fence for my family's sake.

This!

If he wouldn't have followed his orders, it would not have been just him who get's killed or put in a camp himself. The Nazi-Regime like to threaten problematic people with their families fate. If you didn't follow your order or even tried to work against the regime, they would put you, your family and everybody close to you in a camp as well.

I'm from Germany myself and I hate Nazis, old or young doesn't matter, because of what they did to this country and to the world. But a simple guard had no chance of doing anything. If he tried, he would get himself an his family killed or put in a camp. And i can't help but notice that a lot of people in this thread have a very "American" point of view. Especialy those justifying the Nuclear Bombs and the bombings of major cities to weaken morality but on the other hand... Those who won the wars have written the history since the beginning so i probably shouldn't be that surprised.

I don't believe any of the people saying they would have acted differently. No sane person would risk the life of his family and friends for something that's absolutely unlikely to make a difference after all.

[Pannonian]

You were never be forced to join them. In contrary it was an honor and many strifed for it. You got in easily enough with dedication though.

Please don't state facts if they're simply wrong. While it was a honor in the beginning, in the later years 42-45 a lot of people could get forced. It wasn't forcing at gun point, it was kind of like: "Do you want to go to the russian front where a soldier lives approx. 2 days, or would you like to stay in germany in a nice position guarding a door? Oh, how beautiful your little son looks..." I wont judge that, because i cannot imagine how i would have reacted.

If this guy was personally responsible for the murderers, then charge him for it, if not, let him be.

[capitano666]

Your grandpa ever kill any Japs? Boy, mine did. Loads of them. He was a flamethrower operator in the Pacific theater. Lit 'em up and watched 'em burn. At the time, he was happy to do it. They weren't people. They were nameless enemies from a godless, backwards nation. And he absolutely loved hearing them scream as they died. The marines saw nothing wrong with this. That's how a good soldier was supposed to be.

The occupation changed him. My grandfather lived in Japan for some years. Spending time among the Japanese, he realized that they were good, hard working people. They were born, fell in love, had children, and grew old, just like anyone else. They were humans. He told me that during his time in Japan, he grew fond of it's people. He became remorseful for the lives he had taken. But he never once regretted fighting for his country.
He took a sword off the body of a Japanese officer he killed in battle towards the end of the war. At the time, it was a trophy. But I think after his time in Japan, it meant something more to him. I asked him about the sword when I was a child. He told me he had taken it from a brave soldier, and that he wished he could give it back. It wasn't until I was much older that he told me the full story of how he got that sword.

My point is, when I hear about this former nazi, I think of my grandpa.

Awesome post, it was actually quite moving

If I was in his boots (and forced to join the SS in 1939 or whenever he joined), I would have tried to liberate the camp myself or die trying. He did not. He traded his life for the life of thousands of people, thus he should face the consequences.

He would only have added himself to the list of dead people. You can't blame anyone for putting his own life in front of other's life, nobody is called to be a hero.
In his boots I would have done exactly what he did, maybe trying to see if I could escape to some foreign nation without being caught in the mean time.