Former Nazi SS guard fights deportation.

[Purlina]

He is guilty of being on the losing side. Good enough.

Guess we should just hang all German WW2 veterans then...

[Bakis]

I think you're the one missing the point. If all men of any age who were part of the German military during WW2 were judged for crimes against humanity, the German population would look quite badly this day. We're not talking about the random average 20 year old German guy who was drafted in 37 to fix the army's vehicles, or the guy cooking the meals at Auschwitz. We're talking about the SS. You COULDN'T be in the SS if you didn't want to. The SS weren't German military, but a paramilitary group working for the Nazi party, not the government or the people, in general. All the SS people were supporters of the Nazi ideology.

Well, SS was rather big. Totenkopf division is one thing and SS did more warcrimes than anyone. Far from all though.
Even if entering SS at least officially make you stand behind the official policy regarding inferior humans it is a myth that SS had an outspoken policy to simply murder people.

The official policy was never about murdering them so I have a hard time accepting what you seem to portray as any random SS member = aware and participating in murdering people, cos it is simply not true for the vast majority of them.

[Wildtree]

How did a thread about nazi turn into this? Well.. Read up an find out. It's actually fun and informative.
And your point about him is ASSUMING he did commit a crime to begin with. Joining SS is not a crime. Killing someone is. Guarding a camp isn't a crime. Killing someone inside is.
So since you assume he's guilty of a crime, mind telling us which one exactly?
Being German? Cause that's the only thing you can prove about him.

In today's terms he'd be Croatian. He was born in former Yugoslavia, in a region that belongs to Croatia.
I don't know if Germany or Austria requested his deportation to trial him. Didn't really look.
As German, I am not buying into his innocence story at all.
Had he been innocent, he had very little reason to "vanish" from Austria. To me it looks very much that he knew he would get in trouble sooner or later.
He migrated to the USA 3 years after the War. Right during the times when waves of trials against Nazi crimes happened.

[soulcrusher]

Nazi death-camp guards were defending their homeland. He is guilty of being on the losing side. Good enough.

defending it from what exactly? how can you compare a death camp guard to a soldier or airman? just as german aircrew who bombed civillian targets werent prosecuted neither were allied.

[Neazy]

The guy is eighty eight fucking years old and has been a U.S. citizen for 50 years. Now you decide you want to deport him? Fuck that, let the guy stay.

[lazypeon100]

Your grandpa ever kill any Japs? Boy, mine did. Loads of them. He was a flamethrower operator in the Pacific theater. Lit 'em up and watched 'em burn. At the time, he was happy to do it. They weren't people. They were nameless enemies from a godless, backwards nation. And he absolutely loved hearing them scream as they died. The marines saw nothing wrong with this. That's how a good soldier was supposed to be.

The occupation changed him. My grandfather lived in Japan for some years. Spending time among the Japanese, he realized that they were good, hard working people. They were born, fell in love, had children, and grew old, just like anyone else. They were humans. He told me that during his time in Japan, he grew fond of it's people. He became remorseful for the lives he had taken. But he never once regretted fighting for his country.
He took a sword off the body of a Japanese officer he killed in battle towards the end of the war. At the time, it was a trophy. But I think after his time in Japan, it meant something more to him. I asked him about the sword when I was a child. He told me he had taken it from a brave soldier, and that he wished he could give it back. It wasn't until I was much older that he told me the full story of how he got that sword.

My point is, when I hear about this former nazi, I think of my grandpa.

Just wanted to say that was a really cool story. Thanks.

OT: I personally think he should be innocent til proven guilty (just like the current court system works). If he has to go to some international court for the hearing that's fine, but he shouldn't be deported or punished in anyway unless they find him guilty of committing war crimes, REGARDLESS of what you think should be done to him for being a guard. Chances are there won't be enough evidence to convict him of any crime, if that turns out to be the case leave the man be. It's impossible for any of us to really put ourselves in his shoes (unless you're around his age and lived in Nazi Germany, which I'm pretty positive no one here did so). As long as he wasn't doing anything incredibly horrendous, he should not be punished.

I'm not saying any of that to sympathize with Nazi's to be clear, I hate them as much as the next person. I do think it is wrong to punish an old man (or anyone really) for a crime without evidence showing they committed the crime.

[Purlina]

Being a former SS member is not a crime.

If you want to punish someone, you need to prove that they actually did something wrong...

[Wildtree]

defending it from what exactly? how can you compare a death camp guard to a soldier or airman? just as german aircrew who bombed civillian targets werent prosecuted neither were allied.

The way I see it is this:

He's guilty for joining the SS, and making a career there.... He was promoted from Waffen-SS, the lowest form to the Totenkopfstandarte, (Death's Head Banner), and that didn't come from nothing.
However.... I also see it difficult to trial him for the sheer reason of that. I researched now, and apparently Germany has no interest into him. There's no trial for him.

Loyal or not.. At those times people had very limited choice. You either played the game and stay alive and afloat. Or you refuse, and if you do so, you had to get your ass out of the country. Unless you were super brave, like a few people, and joined the underground.
The natural choice was to play the game, for the sake of ones family, to keep them out of harms way.
The power of the SS and the GestaPo (secret service) was almighty.
From there, the commanders, and people in charge have been trialed, rightfully so.. If you order killing commands, then you deserve it.
Guarding prisoners however, doesn't make you a criminal right away.

Yet I have my doubts about his innocence.... But when there's no proof..... no trial.
If it's enough for the USA to revoke his citizenship and deport him. That's to be the only question.
The case goes on since the late 90's already when the US govt started investigation against him.

[Priestiality]

The way I see it is this:

He's guilty for joining the SS, and making a career there.... He was promoted from Waffen-SS, the lowest form to the Totenkopfstandarte, (Death's Head Banner), and that didn't come from nothing.
However.... I also see it difficult to trial him for the sheer reason of that. I researched now, and apparently Germany has no interest into him. There's no trial for him.

Loyal or not.. At those times people had very limited choice. You either played the game and stay alive and afloat. Or you refuse, and if you do so, you had to get your ass out of the country. Unless you were super brave, like a few people, and joined the underground.
The natural choice was to play the game, for the sake of ones family, to keep them out of harms way.
The power of the SS and the GestaPo (secret service) was almighty.
From there, the commanders, and people in charge have been trialed, rightfully so.. If you order killing commands, then you deserve it.
Guarding prisoners however, doesn't make you a criminal right away.

Yet I have my doubts about his innocence.... But when there's no proof..... no trial.
If it's enough for the USA to revoke his citizenship and deport him. That's to be the only question.
The case goes on since the late 90's already when the US govt started investigation against him.

"Under such circumstances, these had either volunteered to the Wehrmacht and had later been forced into the Waffen-SS or were illegally conscripted by general mobilisations." Yeah keep saying it was strictly voluntary...

---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 11:59 AM ----------

In today's terms he'd be Croatian. He was born in former Yugoslavia, in a region that belongs to Croatia.
I don't know if Germany or Austria requested his deportation to trial him. Didn't really look.
As German, I am not buying into his innocence story at all.
Had he been innocent, he had very little reason to "vanish" from Austria. To me it looks very much that he knew he would get in trouble sooner or later.
He migrated to the USA 3 years after the War. Right during the times when waves of trials against Nazi crimes happened.

Ya know, besides the whole "witch hunt" where, if he wasn't outright murdered by the Russians, he'd have likely seen some form of retribution just because he was German.

[capitano666]

Had he been innocent, he had very little reason to "vanish" from Austria. To me it looks very much that he knew he would get in trouble sooner or later.

Lots of people emigrated from Germany during and after the war for various reasons, doesn't look like a guilt marker to me.

[Deleted]

In today's terms he'd be Croatian. He was born in former Yugoslavia, in a region that belongs to Croatia.
I don't know if Germany or Austria requested his deportation to trial him. Didn't really look.
As German, I am not buying into his innocence story at all.
Had he been innocent, he had very little reason to "vanish" from Austria. To me it looks very much that he knew he would get in trouble sooner or later.
He migrated to the USA 3 years after the War. Right during the times when waves of trials against Nazi crimes happened.

You me and every single one of us would have done the same at the time seeing how losers were treated back then.
But I think you're getting confused. This isn't a former captain, like priebke, leaving the country helped by the high sphere. This was a soldier sitting in a tower.
I think him fleeing has to be related to economic/social reasons more then fear of a trial.

[Priestiality]

Lots of people emigrated from Germany during and after the war for various reasons, doesn't look like a guilt marker to me.

Right? My great grandparents fled Germany in the early 30's to AVOID the Nazi party, but ya know, as I said before, they were German in the 1930's, so they must have automatically been Jew-hating assholes. It's not like the family line were bankers there for centuries, and chose to leave it all behind to get out of the country. They must have been German spies or something, that's the only thing that would make sense by his logic, as apparently everyone that lived in Germany at the time and wasn't Jewish just plain loved them some Hitler.

[Radoria]

Isn't there a statute of limitations against this sort of thing? Not to mention he claims it was against his will...

[Deleted]

Point is: The losers lose, the winners win. If the Nazis had won, the Nuremberg trials would've been different, with Nazi judges hanging Allied generals/politicians.

[...]

He is guilty of being on the losing side. Good enough.

That's all very well.

So you have this big trial for the head-men, which takes a few years. Then a series of smaller trials for their subordinates, which takes another 10 years.

But at some point you should draw the line. Terrible things happen in war, innocent people are deliberately killed by both sides, but only people from the losing side are punished. That's vengeance, not justice. And after 60 years, vengeance has long lost its legitimacy.

p.s. The guy is 88, he'll be dead soon. Punishing him now only speeds up nature a little.

[smelltheglove]

I think him fleeing has to be related to economic/social reasons more then fear of a trial.

after vietnam american soldiers got shit on when returning home. being on the losing side tends to make citizens bitter towards their military, and the SS was a very visible branch and focus of military pride. i imagine life sucked for SS in germany after the war, so that might be another reason to leave

[Priestiality]

That's all very well.

So you have this big trial for the head-men, which takes a few years. Then a series of smaller trials for their subordinates, which takes another 10 years.

But at some point you should draw the line. Terrible things happen in war, innocent people are deliberately killed by both sides, but only people from the losing side are punished. That's vengeance, not justice. And after 60 years, vengeance has long lost its legitimacy.

p.s. The guy is 88, he'll be dead soon. Punishing him now only speeds up nature a little.

Yeah but it will make Sharon Siegal happy, and, by proxy, Jews everywhere apparently.

[Deleted]

I mean its nearly 70 years ago... How long is this charade going to last.

[Deleted]

Your grandpa ever kill any Japs? Boy, mine did. Loads of them. He was a flamethrower operator in the Pacific theater. Lit 'em up and watched 'em burn. At the time, he was happy to do it. They weren't people. They were nameless enemies from a godless, backwards nation. And he absolutely loved hearing them scream as they died. The marines saw nothing wrong with this. That's how a good soldier was supposed to be.

The occupation changed him. My grandfather lived in Japan for some years. Spending time among the Japanese, he realized that they were good, hard working people. They were born, fell in love, had children, and grew old, just like anyone else. They were humans. He told me that during his time in Japan, he grew fond of it's people. He became remorseful for the lives he had taken. But he never once regretted fighting for his country.
He took a sword off the body of a Japanese officer he killed in battle towards the end of the war. At the time, it was a trophy. But I think after his time in Japan, it meant something more to him. I asked him about the sword when I was a child. He told me he had taken it from a brave soldier, and that he wished he could give it back. It wasn't until I was much older that he told me the full story of how he got that sword.

My point is, when I hear about this former nazi, I think of my grandpa.

Excellent post.

[JayJay09]

People must not forget that if he had acted against the Nazi regime and denied to do service for them, he would be killed. Obedience or death. Or doing something like Schindler who sucessfully operated in secret but also risked his life.

You were either working for the nazis or against them. There was no middle way.

Anton Geiser was 17 years old when he was a guard in a camp and probably was scared as hell. He was nobody who gave orders but received them and didn't really have a choice.

It required a ton of courage to stand up against the Nazis. And you needed a plan. Otherwise you were as good as dead.

[Deleted]

Camp guards did not just guard the camp, they shot those who ventured too near to the perimeter of the camp, they aided and abetted the slaughter that went on within (by virtue of protecting the processes of the camp), and he essentially facilitated the murder of innocent people. If I was in his boots (and forced to join the SS in 1939 or whenever he joined), I would have tried to liberate the camp myself or die trying. He did not. He traded his life for the life of thousands of people, thus he should face the consequences.

---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 05:21 AM ----------



Hitler never "killed anyone" either, and neither did Stalin. This guy FACILITATED and was an ACCESSORY to the massacre and torture of people.

Yeah but you're a Texan redneck that thinks he can rambo through everything while this guy was probably a conscript forced to do his time, fearing for his life and jail time.