Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[TwoNineMarine]

I feel like the fingerprint readers set into firearms is an acceptable solution to having a weapon next to your bed because you are living in constant fear.

I absolutely advocate full gun safe requirements if the firearms can be fired by anyone. Of course, I also suggest that handguns shouldn't be legal and only action (pump/bolt) long guns should be allowed. But hey, I'm a 'COMING TO TAKE UR GUNS' kinda guy.

Oh I don't want biometeric readers in weapons themselves. I was simply referring to the small safes that have them. It allows me to have my weapon near me with the ability to access it quickly if I want.

I don't live in constant fear. But I've seen enough of the world, and of people, to know that there are dangerous men out there. Men who care nothing of me or my family. And as such I choose to be prepared at all times should I face one of those men.

I may die fighting them, but at least I will have defended my family. Because they are all that matter to me.

[Eroginous]

hence my question, can a licensed dealer just sell himself weapons, therfor making company property, private property

Other topic: what's the difference between that and a private citizen? ughhhhh. Really? If you can buy a product from yourself at cost and resell under the table.... yeah. I don't know that it happens in the gun industry, but I know it happens in other industries.

I'm not sure what your guy's retail experience is, but large scale retail stores (Walmart, Big5, Cabelas, ect) have policies in place that would prevent an employee who has a license to sell firearms (yes, they are required still at those places) from being able to sell firearms to themselves. Typically, you can buy from the company you work for, but someone else has to run the register and charge you full retail price for the items (minus any applicable employee discounts). Now, a small gun shop is obviously not going to have the same company policies of a bigger retail company, where an employee can't ring themselves up without getting fired or with a massive discount to the merchandise, but that doesn't remove the tangible cost of the merchandise.

If you're a small business owner, your business depends on the sale of your stock. Obviously it's not profitable to just pocket guns from your shelves and call them your 'private collection' and I'm sure federal regulations would prevent you from being able to frequently sell your private collection without following the rules intended for licensed dealers. If you were audited and all of a sudden the ATF sees 70% of your gun sales happening from your private collection without background checks, I'm sure you would lose your license and probably face jail time/hefty fines.

The federal regulations make it pretty clear that anyone in the business of selling firearms has to conduct a background check on persons buying firearms. That's a pretty risky gray line between selling as a licensed dealer or a private citizen where one might be inclined to err on the side of caution and do everything as a licensed dealer. As I said before, it would be pretty silly to lose your business because you weren't following the federal rules pertaining to selling firearms as a licensed dealer.

[Mayhem]

I'm not sure what your guy's retail experience is, but large scale retail stores (Walmart, Big5, Cabelas, ect) have policies in place that would prevent an employee who has a license to sell firearms (yes, they are required still at those places) from being able to sell firearms to themselves. Typically, you can buy from the company you work for, but someone else has to run the register and charge you full retail price for the items (minus any applicable employee discounts). Now, a small gun shop is obviously not going to have the same company policies of a bigger retail company, where an employee can't ring themselves up without getting fired or with a massive discount to the merchandise, but that doesn't remove the tangible cost of the merchandise.

If you're a small business owner, your business depends on the sale of your stock. Obviously it's not profitable to just pocket guns from your shelves and call them your 'private collection' and I'm sure federal regulations would prevent you from being able to frequently sell your private collection without following the rules intended for licensed dealers. If you were audited and all of a sudden the ATF sees 70% of your gun sales happening from your private collection without background checks, I'm sure you would lose your license and probably face jail time/hefty fines.

The federal regulations make it pretty clear that anyone in the business of selling firearms has to conduct a background check on persons buying firearms. That's a pretty risky gray line between selling as a licensed dealer or a private citizen where one might be inclined to err on the side of caution and do everything as a licensed dealer. As I said before, it would be pretty silly to lose your business because you weren't following the federal rules pertaining to selling firearms as a licensed dealer.

so there is a difference between private sales... wonder where the line stops, at the shopowner/employee or some random dude that happens to buy 20 guns per week

background checks do seem pretty useless if you can sell them private to whoever the fuck you want

[TwoNineMarine]

so there is a difference between private sales... wonder where the line stops, at the shopowner/employee or some random dude that happens to buy 20 guns per week

background checks do seem pretty useless if you can sell them private to whoever the fuck you want

I imagine the government keeps a relatively close eye on it's licensed dealers. Having a good chunk of a dealers weapons being sold outside the store is something that would catch their eye I would think.

I can't really see most dealers risking that sort of behavior. They know full well the consequences of breaking the law when it comes to firearms. To give up your livelyhood and freedom to sell some weapons illegally doesn't seem like a good trade to me.

I honestly have never heard of a federally licensed dealer getting in trouble for that sort of thing. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never heard of it.

[Mayhem]

I imagine the government keeps a relatively close eye on it's licensed dealers. Having a good chunk of a dealers weapons being sold outside the store is something that would catch their eye I would think.

I can't really see most dealers risking that sort of behavior. They know full well the consequences of breaking the law when it comes to firearms. To give up your livelyhood and freedom to sell some weapons illegally doesn't seem like a good trade to me.

I honestly have never heard of a federally licensed dealer getting in trouble for that sort of thing. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never heard of it.

well you´re probably right, the background checks nevertheless seem totally useless even by a study from the ATF

click here

[TwoNineMarine]

well you´re probably right, the background checks nevertheless seem totally useless even by a study from the ATF

click here

I agree that when it comes to straw purchases background checks don't help at that point. To an extent.

The reason I say that is because I personally only sell/buy from people that have their Conceal Carry Permits. While not completely fool proof, this gives me a slight reassurance that the person I'm dealing with is not a felon due to them having that card.

While I agree background checks, while good in theory and intent, really aren't solving the problem, can you imagine the insane backlash that would come from getting rid of that requirement?

I just don't know what could be proposed that would fix the issue of the bad people getting weapons. There really is no option (in my opinion) that will actually stifle the flow of weapons to criminals, that won't infringe upon law abiding citizens rights.

[Mayhem]

I agree that when it comes to straw purchases background checks don't help at that point. To an extent.

The reason I say that is because I personally only sell/buy from people that have their Conceal Carry Permits. While not completely fool proof, this gives me a slight reassurance that the person I'm dealing with is not a felon due to them having that card.

While I agree background checks, while good in theory and intent, really aren't solving the problem, can you imagine the insane backlash that would come from getting rid of that requirement?

I just don't know what could be proposed that would fix the issue of the bad people getting weapons. There really is no option (in my opinion) that will actually stifle the flow of weapons to criminals, that won't infringe upon law abiding citizens rights.

licencing?

[TwoNineMarine]

licencing?

In what manner?

[Mayhem]

In what manner?

you are required to licence the weapon you buy to you, if you sell them the buyer buys the licence to that gun as well, making background checks automated as he has to buy the licence at an agency/licensed dealer

probably only shifts the problem a little bit, though there has to be a way, come on figure something out *g*

[belfpala]

If you're a small business owner, your business depends on the sale of your stock. Obviously it's not profitable to just pocket guns from your shelves and call them your 'private collection' and I'm sure federal regulations would prevent you from being able to frequently sell your private collection without following the rules intended for licensed dealers. If you were audited and all of a sudden the ATF sees 70% of your gun sales happening from your private collection without background checks, I'm sure you would lose your license and probably face jail time/hefty fines.

I'm not sure of gun rules on that, but I can certainly buy (at cost) from my own business otherwise.

Reselling would be the issue. Like, I can't buy a case of vodka from myself and then go sell it elsewhere without a license. 3rd party gun sales... they seem to be less regulated. Maybe I'm wrong.

[TwoNineMarine]

you are required to licence the weapon you buy to you, if you sell them the buyer buys the licence to that gun as well, making background checks automated as he has to buy the licence at an agency/licensed dealer

probably only shifts the problem a little bit, though there has to be a way, come on figure something out *g*

Well I know you won't agree with on this but I'm not a fan of the government knowing what I do and do not own. Just a personal belief.

And while that may work for future weapons purchases, I doubt it would do much to the millions of guns currently in circulation. There are plenty of people out there who would not go get their weapons licensed.

[Eroginous]

you are required to licence the weapon you buy to you, if you sell them the buyer buys the licence to that gun as well, making background checks automated as he has to buy the licence at an agency/licensed dealer

probably only shifts the problem a little bit, though there has to be a way, come on figure something out *g*

As long as it's possible to claim a gun was lost/stolen, licensing doesn't solve any problems.

Straw purchases are already a crime, adding more background checks will do nothing to stop them. The ATF could already investigate and apprehend straw purchases if they wanted to.

The reality is that guns are portable objects just like books and phones. They are easily misplaced or stolen, which gives you two options:

1. Require guns to be secured in a safe except in an emergency, stripping 99.8% of all gun rights from people.

2. Accept that it will remain possible for someone to lose/steal a gun, easily falling through the cracks of any system you could possibly propose.

I'm just tired of every proposed solution being some form of something we already do or something that violates the second amendment, with the justification that the second amendment is no longer necessary. It's a stupid line of reasoning.

[Mayhem]

Well I know you won't agree with on this but I'm not a fan of the government knowing what I do and do not own. Just a personal belief.

And while that may work for future weapons purchases, I doubt it would do much to the millions of guns currently in circulation. There are plenty of people out there who would not go get their weapons licensed.

don´t they already know because of the background checks or do you buy your weapons without background checks?

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As long as it's possible to claim a gun was lost/stolen, licensing doesn't solve any problems.

well no, but it adds another crime to the list of your record if you´re caught with an unlicensed gun, causing more trouble, making it unlikely that people unknowingly sell guns to criminals

[belfpala]

And while that may work for future weapons purchases, I doubt it would do much to the millions of guns currently in circulation. There are plenty of people out there who would not go get their weapons licensed.

That's the, "Meh, can't fix it, so might as well make it worse" argument.

[Mayhem]

actually i don´t get the reasoning behind "i don´t want my government to know if or if i don´t own guns"

really, i want them to know, then if they have to because of whatever reason show up at my door with police they know if and how many guns i own and probably how likely i am to use them so they can act in an appropriate manner to the situation at hand and aren´t clueless about what´s going on and what could happen therfor believing it to be the worst possible scenario

i could even think about having to register your gun whenever you´re at a shooting range so the police knows how well trained you are

the distrust in american government is astounding, what happened in the past that people feel the need to hide weapons from them but are willing to give them everything else

[TwoNineMarine]

That's the, "Meh, can't fix it, so might as well make it worse" argument.

More like the "This is a fact and you have no counter argument" ..argument lol.

You aren't giving out any good ideas. And you know I'm right. The vast majority of gun owners wouldn't get their weapons licensed. I'm just being realistic. Continue to ignore it if you want. It doesn't make you right.

don´t they already know because of the background checks or do you buy your weapons without background checks?

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well no, but it adds another crime to the list of your record if you´re caught with an unlicensed gun, causing more trouble, making it unlikely that people unknowingly sell guns to criminals

Only one of my weapons is registered to me. Bought the rest from friends and family.

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actually i don´t get the reasoning behind "i don´t want my government to know if or if i don´t own guns"

really, i want them to know, then if they have to because of whatever reason show up at my door with police they know if and how many guns i own and probably how likely i am to use them so they can act in an appropriate manner to the situation at hand and aren´t clueless about what´s going on and what could happen therfor believing it to be the worst possible scenario

i could even think about having to register your gun whenever you´re at a shooting range so the police knows how well trained you are

the distrust in american government is astounding, what happened in the past that people feel the need to hide weapons from them but are willing to give them everything else

I'm not a fan of a lot of the stuff the government knows about us, but that's a topic for another time.

As for the distrust thing: For me personally it's that I don't trust any government. I know what history has told us about governments and how almost all of them eventually treat their people. Do I think our government is close to being tyrannical or something? No. But I do my best to learn from the past and not fall victim to the same things they did.

And your scenario about them knowing what guns you own is...flawed.

Here's why: If the police show up to your door it will most likely be because you are either wanted for a crime or you could have been a witness to a crime and they want to get your statement.

If you are wanted for a crime then they will act accordingly based off that crime. If you got in a hit and run chances are they aren't going to kick in your door weapons drawn. They would have no reason to assume that you are violent. If you did commit a violent crime, say you assaulted some people down at a bar, then they will respond with appropriate force.

Police off hand don't know your demeanor. They react based off the knowledge they have about the crime you committed. If you are a felon they know that legally you aren't allowed to have weapons but you could, and again, based off the crime, they will react accordingly.

[belfpala]

More like the "This is a fact and you have no counter argument" ..argument lol.

Both of our statements are true, I think.

[TwoNineMarine]

Both of our statements are true, I think.

I'm not trying to make anything worse. I don't want innocent people to be killed by dipshits with weapons. But I also realize that trying to get people to register/license their weapons is pointless and in the end will do nothing to solve the problem.

I'm all for preventing deaths but I honestly believe that banning guns or registering them or anything similar to that will not make a lick of difference. In my opinion it comes down to our culture here in the US. But I know you guys don't care about my opinion

[Mayhem]

I'm not trying to make anything worse. I don't want innocent people to be killed by dipshits with weapons. But I also realize that trying to get people to register/license their weapons is pointless and in the end will do nothing to solve the problem.

I'm all for preventing deaths but I honestly believe that banning guns or registering them or anything similar to that will not make a lick of difference. In my opinion it comes down to our culture here in the US. But I know you guys don't care about my opinion

at least i do care about your opinion, but i think doing nothing really won´t change anything, of course if you don´t see a need for change you´re good with that

[belfpala]

In my opinion it comes down to our culture here in the US. But I know you guys don't care about my opinion

I'm a gun owner. I've said this many times. Guns don't bother me in principle. I have two rifles and a shotgun.

Then... I've seen handguns drawn in what should have been minor altercations. Fortunately no incidents, but one twitch of a finger....

This is kind of where my anti-gun stance comes from, that people carrying are less likely to back down, essentially. If that makes sense.