Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Ghostpanther]

Its really infuriating that we dont know how the kids from the shootings got their guns.
Its the most important part if we want to actually have a debate.

If all the guns came from the black market then i am completely wrong and many other people are also wrong and i would have to agree with you.

Some come from irresponsible parents. You can have laws for safe storage of firearms, which some states do have. Does not mean they would stop parents from being shitty parents.

[PhaelixWW]

Its really infuriating that we dont know how the kids from the shootings got their guns.
Its the most important part if we want to actually have a debate.

Well, we know for a fact that they didn't legally purchase those firearms. So it's a bit disingenuous of you to be arguing that the problem is allowing 18-year-olds to legally purchase firearms using that as an argument.

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Some come from irresponsible parents. You can have laws for safe storage of firearms, which some states do have. Does not mean they would stop parents from being shitty parents.

And yet it also doesn't mean that they're necessarily shitty parents. Kids get into stuff they're not supposed to all the time.

[Deleted]

Well, we know for a fact that they didn't legally purchase those firearms. So it's a bit disingenuous of you to be arguing that the problem is allowing 18-year-olds to legally purchase firearms using that as an argument.

Maybe they got the weapons from a friend of legal age.
Maybe a store sold a weapon to an underaged kid. (i already know you are going to make fun of me for saying this)
We dont know, and its stupid that we dont know. Everyone should know how this kids are getting their guns.

[urasim]

Its really infuriating that we dont know how the kids from the shootings got their guns.
Its the most important part if we want to actually have a debate.

It's not the most important part. It's actually one of the least. The most important part is why kids want to kill other people, and what we can do to prevent that urge. Because homicides are committed with more than just guns. Remove all the guns and you'll have mass killing from truck attacks like we've seen in other countries. Or you'll get people who fly planes into buildings or crowds. Or there will be a mass stabbing spree. The core issue is the person not the gun.

If all the guns came from the black market then i am completely wrong and many other people are also wrong and i would have to agree with you.

I don't think you're completely wrong, but you've said many, many things that are completely wrong.

Maybe they got the weapons from a friend of legal age.

That's illegal obtaining a gun. They have laws against that.

Maybe a store sold a weapon to an underaged kid. (i already know you are going to make fun of me for saying this)

That's illegal obtaining a gun. They have laws against that.

We dont know, and its stupid that we dont know. Everyone should know how this kids are getting their guns.

We do know most of the detail. It's just not shared with the public all the time. Do you even know why? I bet you don't. There are a few reasons, though. I'd love to see you guess.

[Deleted]

It's not the most important part. It's actually one of the least. The most important part is why kids want to kill other people, and what we can do to prevent that urge. Because homicides are committed with more than just guns. Remove all the guns and you'll have mass killing from truck attacks like we've seen in other countries. Or you'll get people who fly planes into buildings or crowds. Or there will be a mass stabbing spree. The core issue is the person not the gun.

Its not the most important part? what?
How do underaged kids get their weapons is not an important topic?
My whole case and point is made because i dont believe everyone has access to the black market.
If you showed me proof this kids got their weapons from the black market my arguments would be slim and pointless.

And how can we stop the will to kill other people?
We cant.
No one can change the entire culture of a country out of nowhere. Sometimes is not even the culture. So many factors can make people want to kill other people.
We can do nothing or very little about it.

We do know most of the detail. It's just not shared with the public all the time. Do you even know why? I bet you don't. There are a few reasons, though. I'd love to see you guess.

I have no guesses. But please tell me.

[Ghostpanther]

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And yet it also doesn't mean that they're necessarily shitty parents. Kids get into stuff they're not supposed to all the time.

That is true. But generally, the shooters who got their firearms from their parents, is because they left them out for easy access.

[urasim]

Its not the most important part? what?
How do underaged kids get their weapons is not an important topic?

Yes, because of the huge fucking list of ways to kill people are also out there for them to use. When you ban something it just makes it worse, BTW. Look at prohibition in the US for reference.

My whole case and point is made because i dont believe everyone has access to the black market.
If you showed me proof this kids got their weapons from the black market my arguments would be slim and pointless.

Everyone can have access to it, though. You can access it right now.

Your argument is "slim" and pointless regardless of where the fucking kids got there guns. You never even suggested anyway to prevent gun deaths besides "remove all guns."

And how can we stop the will to kill other people?
We cant.

What? Yes we can... We do it all the time. With therapy and medication being two examples.

This is why there's a mental health crisis... Because people like you don't even know what the fuck is going on and fighting the wrong fucking things.

No one can change the entire culture of a country out of nowhere. Sometimes is not even the culture. So many factors can make people want to kill other people.
We can do nothing or very little about it.

No one is suggesting to change the entire culture of a country. I hope you realize that there are thousands of different cultures in the US. You're delusional if you think we can't do anything about it, though. They could have easily stopped the Florida shooter for instance. But they failed to actually do anything.

I have no guesses. But please tell me.

Really? You can't think of one reason why law enforcement would keep information out of the general public? Not one reason?

[SinR]

Mental Health control first

[Deleted]

@urasim

Therapy and medication only does something if we catch the problem early.
Sometimes the "school shooting" is the first time they did something crazy.
How do you know a person has mental problems BEFORE the incident that proves that person has a mental problem?

We only know that person is sick after he does something crazy. Which is already too late at that point in time.

[Mullet Man]

@urasim

Therapy and medication only does something if we catch the problem early.
Sometimes the "school shooting" is the first time they did something crazy.
How do you know a person has mental problems BEFORE the incident that proves that person has a mental problem?

We only know that person is sick after he does something crazy. Which is already too late at that point in time.

You have perfectly described why having armed staff at schools is being considered.

[urasim]

@urasim

Therapy and medication only does something if we catch the problem early.
Sometimes the "school shooting" is the first time they did something crazy.
How do you know a person has mental problems BEFORE the incident that proves that person has a mental problem?

We only know that person is sick after he does something crazy. Which is already too late at that point in time.

There are always massive signs. Look at the Florida shooter for instance. So many red flags and no one did what needed to be done.

You can tell when someone is off. The only time when you can't tell is when the person is legitimately a psychopath. All of the school shooters has had issues, but they weren't psychopaths. Psychopaths are a tiny minority and most of them aren't murderous.

[Deleted]

You have perfectly described why having armed staff at schools is being considered.

Yeah i agree that can also be done but i think is more important to know how all this underaged kids got their guns.
Thats the most imortant part that no one seems to know.

But according to the NY Times

A vast majority of guns used in 19 recent mass shootings were bought legally and with a federal background check. At least nine gunmen had criminal histories or documented mental health problems that did not prevent them from obtaining their weapons

So i still believe you should up the age to have a gun.
And for the people saying "not everyone can buy a gun in America", what about those "9 people" that stores sold guns to even if they had mental health problems and criminal history.

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Also this
Not even the NY Times knows how this underaged kids got their guns...

'How did a kid get a gun?' should be the central question of any school shooting

[Mullet Man]

Yeah i agree that can also be done but i think is more important to know how all this underaged kids got their guns.
Thats the most imortant part that no one seems to know.

But according to the NY Times

A vast majority of guns used in 19 recent mass shootings were bought legally and with a federal background check. At least nine gunmen had criminal histories or documented mental health problems that did not prevent them from obtaining their weapons

So i still believe you should up the age to have a gun.
And for the people saying "not everyone can buy a gun in America", what about those "9 people" that stores sold guns to even if they had mental health problems and criminal history.

Yes, I agree that the Broward County Sheriffs Office and FBI failed the Parkland students by allowing the Parkland shooter to continue purchasing and possessing guns.

I have to leave shortly, so I can't look into if, and where, the process failed for the other gun purchases. I'll check later.

[Deleted]

Yes, I agree that the Broward County Sheriffs Office and FBI failed the Parkland students by allowing the Parkland shooter to continue purchasing and possessing guns.

I have to leave shortly, so I can't look into if, and where, the process failed for the other gun purchases. I'll check later.

I dont want to come off as a conspiracy theorist...but not even the NY Times knows how the underaged kids got their guns.
I dont know why the police is hiding this facts but is such an important topic for the debate.

If you want to have a debate that will decide the future of your country then you need to have access to this information.

[AlphaOut]

Im sorry, but you've had 20 "incidents with guns" in school grounds.
8 of them were actual school shootings.

From january to March

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/558128...land-shooting/

If this is not a problem, i dont know what is...
Sure there are bigger problems in your country, but even just 1 school shooting is 1 too many school shootings. You've had 8 of them and its friggin March.

At least you didn't skew the numbers or use the term mass shootings, because if you did it'd be less than 8.

But lets go into detail of shootings in the US, for funsies. My list will be a bit different from yours as mine just contains fatalities. But your link shows 6 of 8 being underage. Keep that in mind. I want to explore if there's any other issue excluding legislation that can be prevented now instead of waiting on the government. Lets be real though, "Shall not be infringed" goes a very long way in court.

http://popculture.com/trending/2018/...ills-shooting/

1. This was actually at a party, and not during school hours.

2. Two fatalities during school, not a mass shooting by the whole crazy "mass shooting" definition. But definitely a shooting and a problem. The suspect was 15 years old. So it raises the question where did he get this firearm and how would more regulations actually have an affect on a 15 year old obtaining one the same way he did prior to.

3. I'm not actually sure how I feel about this one. It happened during a basketball game, there were 3 or more different firearms fired (suspected). It happened in the parking lot. 1 death. Zero arrests. My issue with this one is it was a brawl between like 30 people. 30 adults. Adults being stupid. But not much information on this one.

4. Parkland, Florida. Probably the most well known and talking about mass shooting. The guy was 19 years old. He had no business being at a school in the first place. Let alone carrying a duffel bag. This is a lapse in security. If someone still thinks there wasn't an issue with security, the guy ate at Subway after, and went to Wal-Mart. He came and went as he pleased.

5. This one was in Georgia. It did happen on a college campus. So we can call it a school shooting if you'd like. However, neither the suspect nor the victim were a student. So who knows. But we can consider it school grounds since it is?

6. This one happened in a dorm room at college. The guy killed his parents when they were visiting him.

7. High school shooting leaving 1 dead. Shooter was 17. How did he obtain a firearm? Immune to any legal regulations. There was actually another shooting that day that wasn't very well covered. It happened at JSU. He was shot in the leg, but there isn't much information on it. Maybe self inflicted? Who knows?

8. The most recent one was Great Mills. The guy was 17. Again, an underage individual with a firearm immune to legal legislations surrounding firearms.


So of the 8. We have 3 underage individuals with firearms, 1 that happened in the parking lot during an altercation between 30 adults after school hours. 1 had zero students involved; it just happened on a university campus so its classified as a school shooting. 1 in the dorms (killed parents). 1 at a party. Finally 2 from adults who happily walked right in during school hours; one of them leaving like it was no big deal.

I think the most important thing here is ensuring firearms are out of reach from the youth. Considering that's nearly half of the listed shootings this year, it poses a huge issue. Then, stop letting people walk into a school like they have some reason to be there. All of the sudden these numbers start to dwindle. The 3 remaining are kind of in the gray area if you want to call them school shootings. I'm not downplaying a murder, but they weren't "school" shootings by any means, unless you're sticking to your guns (see what I did there?) and calling them that.

To enforce the fact that ensuring parents keep their firearms away from kids, over half of the 20 "incidents" are from underage individuals. 3rd grade to 17. Literally no legislation that would actually pass would prevent any of those underage shootings. Because they didn't buy it. Unless they went to Montana or Alaska or something, but that's a reach.

There's a few other strange ones. Chasing a bank robber to a school campus, police shot him. School incident apparently. Hell, one of them was a cop that shot himself by accident. A 3rd grader pressing the trigger in an officers holster. These are silly things that shouldn't even have the word school attached to them. Of course its a political chess game. But if we can't even keep guns out of the hands of our youth, don't expect any miracles from regulations.

I always wind up typing way more than I should. Sorry.

[Deleted]

To enforce the fact that ensuring parents keep their firearms away from kids, over half of the 20 "incidents" are from underage individuals. 3rd grade to 17. Literally no legislation that would actually pass would prevent any of those underage shootings. Because they didn't buy it. Unless they went to Montana or Alaska or something, but that's a reach.

So there is no legislation that can give jail time to irresponsible parents? I think someone said that in some states its mandatory to have guns in a safe.

If this kids got their guns from their parents. We dont know for sure.

They could have got it by a friend of legal age (ex: Columbine High School shooting)
And in my good faith i refuse to believe they got it from a store who sold a gun to an underaged kid. Nah, cant be real.
Or from the internet...also think its really unikely but i dont know.

[AlphaOut]

So there is no legislation that can give jail time to irresponsible parents? I think someone said that in some states its mandatory to have guns in a safe.

If this kids got their guns from their parents. We dont know for sure.

They could have got it by a friend of legal age (ex: Columbine High School shooting)
And in my good faith i refuse to believe they got it from a store who sold a gun to an underaged kid. Nah, cant be real.

Well, the legislation would be towards locking their firearms up, but the common "gun control" methods of background checks etc that most people keep going on about wouldn't matter. Kind of what I meant, but I stand corrected. Thank you.

Most of the reports, when reported, are their parents guns. And I definitely support punishing the parents to the full extent of the crime committed by their firearm. I think I said that a few pages back as well. It'd certainly make people think about their firearms a bit more often. As for now, in most cases the suspects parent just get sued by the victims parents.

From my understanding their girlfriend bought it at a gun show, she was 18. Gun show loopholes need to be looked into as well. However, I'm also fairly certain that columbine has been the only shooting where the firearm was actually traced back to a gun show. The loophole is good and bad. But the negative potential it can bring leads me to think it should be reworked.

[Deleted]

Well, the legislation would be towards locking their firearms up, but the common "gun control" methods of background checks etc that most people keep going on about wouldn't matter. Kind of what I meant, but I stand corrected. Thank you.

Most of the reports, when reported, are their parents guns. And I definitely support punishing the parents to the full extent of the crime committed by their firearm. I think I said that a few pages back as well. It'd certainly make people think about their firearms a bit more often. As for now, in most cases the suspects parent just get sued by the victims parents.

From my understanding their girlfriend bought it at a gun show, she was 18. Gun show loopholes need to be looked into as well. However, I'm also fairly certain that columbine has been the only shooting where the firearm was actually traced back to a gun show. The loophole is good and bad. But the negative potential it can bring leads me to think it should be reworked.

Omg, there are "loopholes"?
I hope thats not the way this kids are getting their guns. Thats really messed up.

You know whats also messed up? The police not reporting to the public how every kid got their guns. Thats should be a crime.
Like this gentleman said:

Far too often, the response to school shootings is to talk about increased mental health services, school security and even arming school personnel. We neglect the fundamental question about prevention: How does a child get a gun?

Storing guns so that a minor cannot have access to them is the law in California and the responsibility of all gun owners, and where a minor gets a gun should be a focus of any news story on shootings committed by children.

Start asking questions.

[AlphaOut]

Omg, there are "loopholes"?
I hope thats not the way this kids are getting their guns. Thats really messed up.

You know whats also messed up? The police not reporting to the public how every kid got their guns. Thats should be a crime.
Like this gentleman said:

Yeah I had a discussion earlier about that. Its such an obvious thing and you really have to dig to find a glimpse of any report of where a minor received their firearm. Kind of strange.

Its actually called the gun show loophole lol. They're private sales, so they don't fall under federal regulations when considering background checks, or any check for that matter. You still have to be of age of course.

[Clone]

None of your other rights will allow you to defend yourself effectively against someone wishing to break into your home and do you and your family harm. None of the other laws will protect you from tyranny either. Guns aren't the problem. People are the problem. You don't lock your door at night to protect yourself from guns, you do it to protect yourself from other people. Regardless of whether they attack you with fists, knives, bats, or guns, it is the person, not the weapon that that you need to protect yourself against.

And yet, 2A didn't defend the victims of Parkland and Sandy Hook. It also allowed the Vegas shooter to achieve a higher body count than a coordinated ten men knife attack in China. You can keep saying it's for self defense, the reality is people aren't being very well defended.

You are right that it's a people problem. It does not however negate it's also a gun problem. Because apparently people can't handle gun rights, and would rather not do anything about it because it will inconvenience their gun ownership, or because of a document that hasn't adapted to modern times.

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I understand a legit reason to carry a firearm in 90% of the places I go in public. After all, the Second Amendment has been ruled by the highest court in the land to be a right for self defense apart from a militia. The police can not be every place and their response time is on average, 8 mins. I am not going to be defenseless during that time.

It doesn't really matter what the Supreme Court thinks about guns. Every self defense course and every stastic will tell you pulling out a gun greatly increases the danger you are in. I can understand the sentiment for self defense, but reality says otherwise.

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As an aside, Switzerland has a gun culture, with high gun ownership and no mass shootings.

Switzerland has stricter gun control, and even ammo control.