Rise of The Hutt Cartel: First Digital Expansion

[RohanV]

I'm at a loss.... resizing buffs = better overview for healer and anyone else should know their buffs/ debuffs and what they put on a mob. I prefer seeing all buffs on a mob because too many people aren't putting theirs and can be called out on it.
How is moving/ resizing single buffs any improvement for your individual gameplay?

Because you only care about certain buffs/debuffs in an encounter. For example, in WoW, arcane mages have personal debuff named Arcane Charge. They are constantly gaining and losing stacks of that debuff. As a healer, I don't care about that debuff. It's irrelevant to me, just taking up space, and so I would prefer not to show it on the unit frames. Also buff icons tend to be pretty small, so you have to pay a lot of attention when there are multiple debuffs. A proper set of buff/debuff filters makes a great deal of difference, in my mind.

Thing is that this is generally pretty complex to set up. I'm not really sure that you can do this in a default UI. WoW's current default raid frames in Mists are interesting, because Blizzard has designated certain debuffs in encounters as "important" and they appear larger than other debuffs. You can't edit this list, but I find it's "good enough".

[Redblade]

I'm at a loss.... resizing buffs = better overview for healer and anyone else should know their buffs/ debuffs and what they put on a mob. I prefer seeing all buffs on a mob because too many people aren't putting theirs and can be called out on it.
How is moving/ resizing single buffs any improvement for your individual gameplay?

Procs, reactive abilities, stacking buffs/debuffs, time left of slows/stuns do I need to go on? If you ever played WoW using Power auras, Tell me when or similar addon you would understand the usefulness. Resizing buffs and debuffs the way it's described will surely help some but do absolutely nothing for others. If you're used to look at the bottom of your screen and only took issue with the size then I'm sure it's great, I'm willing to bet that the majority would want to move them and only track specific abilities/buffs/debuffs for the change to be useful to them.

Making this change over a year after launch and only offer the ability to scale them up in size is horrible and shows the crawl paced development the game receives. Standing at the outside looking in objectively all I see these days is how EA/BW is milking the remaining player base for all they are worth with the same slow development and hollow promises that made me quit in the first place like 8 months ago.

[Psychlon]

As a healer, all debuffs are on the same side and I should know at some point which I have/ can cure. Having these icons larger is a benefit.

As a dd, while applying a dot I should know how long it takes because of my rotation and if there is another player applying the same dot, I could pay some attention and figure out which one is mine.

I don't see any immediate improvement if I could move my stackable buffs away from my constant buffs and again away from my short buffs. The smaller the area, I have to look at, is, the faster I can see all informations I want to. Not to mention that I should know when which buffs are running.

It just seems to me that the next step should be telling people when to press what button just to not have to pay any attention at all or let's just macro the whole fight including movements to just sit there and watch your char and your macro win the fin or let's watch it later in the evening or... well there is no real point in playing anymore because as an individual... you aren't doing anything anymore.

I get that people from WoW are all over macroes and individual setups and everything but the only time ui interface discussions are coming up is when Bioware is improving them and it seems as nobody really cares for it in the rest of the time.

[Redblade]

As a healer, all debuffs are on the same side and I should know at some point which I have/ can cure. Having these icons larger is a benefit.

Being able to filter out the once you can't cure would help you though, which is what we're saying should be an option, especially after a year of development.

As a dd, while applying a dot I should know how long it takes because of my rotation and if there is another player applying the same dot, I could pay some attention and figure out which one is mine.

You should know is just not good enough of an excuse, being able to know because you have clear information from the UI is as far as I'm concerned a basic requirement for playing at a higher level. As for being able to figure out who's dot is yours, really...you don't find that to be apologetic to the point of just being a pathetic argument your self?

I don't see any immediate improvement if I could move my stackable buffs away from my constant buffs and again away from my short buffs. The smaller the area, I have to look at, is, the faster I can see all informations I want to. Not to mention that I should know when which buffs are running.

I could go on all day about the effects of being able to have clear separated information on your UI, here is a screen of my WoW UI from my pally and here is an older one from a healer alt of mine, you can't say with a straight face that the information I can access around the center of my screen on those is anything even close to what enlarged buffs in the TOR UI will provide.

It just seems to me that the next step should be telling people when to press what button just to not have to pay any attention at all or let's just macro the whole fight including movements to just sit there and watch your char and your macro win the fin or let's watch it later in the evening or... well there is no real point in playing anymore because as an individual... you aren't doing anything anymore.

Clear information about your own abilities and the buffs and debuffs of your target has literally nothing to do with automated play, it's only information that you, the player, have to take in to play your character well.

I get that people from WoW are all over macroes and individual setups and everything but the only time ui interface discussions are coming up is when Bioware is improving them and it seems as nobody really cares for it in the rest of the time.

There was tons of discussions about how horrible the UI was both in beta and after launch, people asked for addons but BW said no as they wanted to keep control and I was all for it providing they actually made the options we needed available in a timely fashion...they didn't and still don't.

[Deleted]

@Redblade

More customization is always a good thing, I agree. That said I'm not sure what you ask is urgently needed.

Personally, I've done every piece of TOR content as a healer (still raid twice a week) and I have not suffered at all without the option to the move/resize specific buffs. Not sure if you've ever played TOR as a healer but it really isn't complicated to that degree. Certain raids are challenging (NiM EC) but the changes you ask for wouldn't help me during those raids at all. Your experiences with WoW seem to be dictating what you believe will improve TOR and at least with the current content (and that on the PTS) those changes aren't needed. I'm not against BW adding it and then adding content to warrant it but as of today it's not needed imo.

More customization is always a good thing but I pray it's on the backburner compared to other features.

My 2 cents.

[Redblade]

That said I'm not sure what you ask is urgently needed.

It was urgently needed before the bulk of the players left, today it won't matter much as the people who still play would pay to cross the fires of hell only to play the game, or at least that's how I see it.

Personally, I've done every piece of TOR content as a healer (still raid twice a week) and I have not suffered at all without the option to the move/resize specific buffs.

So did I up to the point where I quit and I'm betting you don't play a dot based class nor PvP at all based on your comment.

Not sure if you've ever played TOR as a healer but it really isn't that complicated. Certain raids are challenging (NiM EC) but the changes you ask for wouldn't help me during those raids at all.

I have and there are healer buffs that I would benefit from having center screen over where they are now, it's not life and death for me but being an avid gamer I can see how it would have a much larger impact on other players.

Your experiences with WoW seem to be dictating what you believe will improve TOR and at least with the current content (and that on the PTS) those changes aren't needed. I'm not against BW adding it and then adding content to warrant it but as of today it's not needed imo.

My experiences with WoW only goes as far as to show how important on screen information at a comfortable position is, just because you can get by doesn't mean it's good nor that others don't need it to enjoy the game properly...

More customization is always a good thing but I pray it's on the backburner compared to other features.

Yes, lets keep the game UI being horrible because you get by with it as is...and I do agree, compared to other features promised a year ago that still isn't implemented it doesn't seem as important, I disagree that it should be put on the backburner though as it should have been delivered long ago with all those other hollow promises.


Edit: Here is a bonus screen for you, it's from Rift, notice any similarities in concept of where my vital information is?

[Deleted]

It was urgently needed before the bulk of the players left, today it won't matter much as the people who still play would pay to cross the fires of hell only to play the game, or at least that's how I see it.

We actually agree on most points except the degree to which the proposed change is needed. From your previous post I see you quit back last april or may? Please tell me which TOR content that you actually experienced required you to have these changes? I ask because of the your quote above. Urgently needed before April? Was it urgently needed for the flashpoints? Was it urgently needed for EV and KP? Heck, even EC HM isn't dot heavy or debuff heavy.

Again, i'm not against them adding it at all. However I prefer them to work on other items beforehand as TOR's content simply doesn't justify the changes you ask for being prioritized.

[Redblade]

We actually agree on most points except the degree to which the proposed change is needed. From your previous post I see you quit back last april? Please tell me which TOR content that you actually experienced required you to have these changes? I ask because of the your quote above. Urgently needed before April? Was it urgently needed for the flashpoints? Was it urgently needed for EV and KP? Heck, even EC HM isn't dot heavy or debuff heavy.

Again, i'm not against them adding it at all. However I prefer them to work on other items beforehand as TOR's content simply doesn't justify the changes you ask for being prioritized. At least not as of today.

It was urgently needed for the enjoyment of the end game, basically by most competitive players in PvP and PvE. I never said it couldn't be done nor that it was crucial to your success in PvE at that stage, in PvP I'd say it was and is needed for higher level play.

So you rather have them work on it now, document all the changes and work out all the kinks to later go back and have to go over the same process once again, really?

They said the customizable UI was only a start back when that was introduced...still no improvements unless you count this change to the buff frames. So with that in mind it would only be what, 1-3 years before they get around to it again.


To think that people took offense back when I compared the development pace to that of Blizzard 6 months ago...as it stands now Blizzard shines with their by industry standards horrible pace compared.

[Deleted]

It was urgently needed for the enjoyment of the end game, basically by most competitive players in PvP and PvE. I never said it couldn't be done nor that it was crucial to your success in PvE at that stage, in PvP I'd say it was and is needed for higher level play.

So you rather have them work on it now, document all the changes and work out all the kinks to later go back and have to go over the same process once again, really?

By initially saying it was 'urgently needed', I presumed you meant 'crucial success-wise'. Now I see you meant enjoyment-wise though I'm still curious to what TOR content specifically you're refering to. 'Urgently needed for the enjoyment of the end game' is too generic for me to question.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on the 'urgency' of such change.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 01:55 PM ----------

They said the customizable UI was only a start back when that was introduced...still no improvements unless you count this change to the buff frames. So with that in mind it would only be what, 1-3 years before they get around to it again.


To think that people took offense back when I compared the development pace to that of Blizzard 6 months ago...as it stands now Blizzard shines with their by industry standards horrible pace compared.

Wholeheartedly agree. The pace of change was awful. Seems to have picked up for new content being added but overall (game is 14 months old) it's still unsatisfactory.

[Redblade]

By initially saying it was 'urgently needed', I presumed you meant 'crucial success-wise'. Now I see you meant enjoyment-wise though I'm still curious to what TOR content specifically you're refering to. 'Urgently needed for the enjoyment of the end game' is too generic for me to question.

When you have to move your eyes from what's happening to look at a tiny debuff at the bottom of your screen to see how long you are CC'd for it's quite urgently needed change, just sayin'.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on the 'urgency' of such change.

We might feel differently so lets just say it was and still is needed to varying degrees depending on what you as a player demand of your UI and game experience.

Wholeheartedly agree. The pace of change was awful. Seems to have picked up for new content being added but overall (game is 14 months old) it's still unsatisfactory.

To be quite fair I don't see it, you get content additions more frequently perhaps but the amount seems to still be about the same at the end of the day and as such is only an illusion of more.

[RoninaThorstone]

Wholeheartedly agree. The pace of change was awful. Seems to have picked up for new content being added but overall (game is 14 months old) it's still unsatisfactory.

Depends if you count daily hubs as "content". Most people would not.

/shrug

Rift seems to be on the verge of releasing their 4th raid and its the 4th month of their expansion.
I hear wow is averaging one raid every two months.

Personally, I am not a big "content must be this fast to ride my wallet" guy as I prefer to play many MMOs rather than focus on being a "bleeding edge" raiders. So a slow content roll in 5-10 mmos is perfectly fine as I will never have enough time to complete every last bit of new content in each game. (for those who feel content starved, I suggest this way of playing MMOs. You will be hard pressed to run out of things to do when racing against 10 dev teams)

That said, Swtor has, what? KP, EV, EC, TFB?

so 1 raid per 3.5 months.

I can understand how people who like to be in a "committed relationship" with their mmo would be dissatisfied with that.

[WarpedAcorn]

I can understand how people who like to be in a "committed relationship" with their mmo would be dissatisfied with that.

I changed my relationship status with SWTOR to "Its Complicated" after the last time I quit and resubbed. ^_^

[Deleted]

1) Depends if you count daily hubs as "content". Most people would not.

/shrug

2) Rift seems to be on the verge of releasing their 4th raid and its the 4th month of their expansion.
I hear wow is averaging one raid every two months.

3) Personally, I am not a big "content must be this fast to ride my wallet" guy as I prefer to play many MMOs rather than focus on being a "bleeding edge" raiders. So a slow content roll in 5-10 mmos is perfectly fine as I will never have enough time to complete every last bit of new content in each game. (for those who feel content starved, I suggest this way of playing MMOs. You will be hard pressed to run out of things to do when racing against 10 dev teams)

4) That said, Swtor has, what? KP, EV, EC, TFB?

so 1 raid per 3.5 months.

I can understand how people who like to be in a "committed relationship" with their mmo would be dissatisfied with that.

1) I'd have to challenge that. 'Most people'? No need to speak for others unless you have an official poll/survey to back up the point. I say this as I would consider it content. A new daily area is content. 'Most people' agree with me

2) You play Rift so you tell me, they have 4 raids since their expansion came out or 4 raids in the last 2 years? If the former then /tiphat if the latter...1 raid every 6 months? I could live with that I guess.

3) I raid all the time but I would sacrifice the entire raiding feature for SWG's space game, crafting and player housing. Great suggestion btw, if I were back at University I'd jump all over your advice (I could play 6-10hrs a day). Right now with a young family I can barely finish all the content in TOR.

4) 1 raid per 3.5 months though in theory it's 2 raids in a year as really only EC and TfB have been released post launch. As i said before it's increasing compared to Dec 11-April 2012 (the time I was refering to).

If 2.0 comes out in March I'll be hard-pressed to find anyone ingame complaining about the slow content. We'll see I guess.

[Redblade]

2) You play Rift so you tell me, they have 4 raids since their expansion came out or 4 raids in the last 2 years? If the former then /tiphat if the latter...1 raid every 6 months? I could live with that I guess.

It's the former...

If 2.0 comes out in March I'll be hard-pressed to find anyone ingame complaining about the slow content. We'll see I guess.

Except it's still slower than, well basically the whole industry, what people remaining in game has to say about content delivery is kinda biased at this point.

[RoninaThorstone]

1) I'd have to challenge that. 'Most people'? No need to speak for others unless you have an official poll/survey to back up the point. I say this as I would consider it content. A new daily area is content. 'Most people' agree with me

2) You play Rift so you tell me, they have 4 raids since their expansion came out or 4 raids in the last 2 years? If the former then /tiphat if the latter...1 raid every 6 months? I could live with that I guess.

3) I raid all the time but I would sacrifice the entire raiding feature for SWG's space game, crafting and player housing. Great suggestion btw, if I were back at University I'd jump all over your advice (I could play 6-10hrs a day). Right now with a young family I can barely finish all the content in TOR.

4) 1 raid per 3.5 months though in theory it's 2 raids in a year as really only EC and TfB have been released post launch. As i said before it's increasing compared to Dec 11-April 2012 (the time I was refering to).

If 2.0 comes out in March I'll be hard-pressed to find anyone ingame complaining about the slow content. We'll see I guess.

1) Alright! I'll get on that :P
2) 12 raids in 2 years. So 1 per 2 months since launch.
3) I barely have time to play myself, at this point I am working on new content in firefall (which is sparse)
4) eh. It's still raids. I would count them.

[Deleted]

It's the former...



Except it's still slower than, well basically the whole industry, what people remaining in game has to say about content delivery is kinda biased at this point.

1) Sweet Yoda...4 raids in 4 months and to cap it all they also have Player Housing? /Love! (not being sarcastic, if it weren't for the fantasy setting i'd be on the Rift boards it seems).

2) I see your point. If it's that slow compared to other MMO's then the people who find that to be important will jump ship. Somehow though I can't see the population levels going down anytime soon. It's been constant since November and 2.0 will appease many who were 'starved' of content.

P.S.Don't get me wrong, despite not having enough time I'd love for the content delivery to be faster still. However I do believe it's improved compared to before.

[Kelimbror]

1) I'd have to challenge that. 'Most people'? No need to speak for others unless you have an official poll/survey to back up the point. I say this as I would consider it content. A new daily area is content. 'Most people' agree with me

While I get your point, it's much easier to find examples of people complaining about dailies as content across the entire scope of the genre. Most (vocal) people tend to think dailies are not a great content delivery system. You're smart enough that we don't need to post 5 different links to this website or any other game's official forums for you to know that this is true.

Whether that means the actual majority of players feels the same way, idk. We tend not to talk about 'those people' because they don't come here and talk back.

If 2.0 comes out in March I'll be hard-pressed to find anyone ingame complaining about the slow content. We'll see I guess.

Just depends on how solid it is. You are probably speaking from PTR experience, so I'll have to take your word for it. On paper it sounds decent, but so did galactic reputation and the new daily area which I found in practice wasn't really that great. I thought it would be enough to entice me to play it a bit since it's 'free' for me, but I only played one day and didn't enjoy it that much.

And this is coming from someone who really, really wants some meaty content to get me back on my bounty hunter because I love the gameplay. If they had just done RotHC as a huge content patch, I would not only have come back to play but been enticed to eitehr subscribe to see some more end game or at least get some cartel coins for new things. I am being 100% serious.

Their game doesn't have enough weight compared to just about every other game out there right now, which is a huge problem. Really every complaints we harp on about is one piece of that very large statement. Their focus on Cartel items, slow/poor content, not having UI features that existed 6 years ago. All of these things are just pieces of why this game doesn't have as much weight or merit to it as almost every other AA and AAA MMO in the NA/EU markets.

[Deleted]

While I get your point, it's much easier to find examples of people complaining about dailies as content across the entire scope of the genre. Most (vocal) people tend to think dailies are not a great content delivery system. You're smart enough that we don't need to post 5 different links to this website or any other game's official forums for you to know that this is true.

Whether that means the actual majority of players feels the same way, idk. We tend not to talk about 'those people' because they don't come here and talk back.

I'm still recovering from Rift's 4 raids in 4 months. Seriously annoying to find that out

On the first point, mine was a tongue in cheek reply. HK said 'hubs aren't considered content'. I was saying they are content. I get that they suck for most people but I'm not sure how you can pick and choose what is considered content based on likes/dislikes. Hubs brought new missions and story. Not a huge amount and the repetitve nature tires me out however, content it is.

Regardless, it was mainly a vessel to insert my own 'most people' remark in reply to his own...hence the to show I wasn't discussing seriously.

[Kelimbror]

Regardless, it was mainly a vessel to insert my own 'most people' remark in reply to his own...hence the to show I wasn't discussing seriously.

Oh I know, but it was a good platform to have a meaningful discussion. You say that we can't determine content based on likes and dislikes, but that's exactly how we determine what is content.

What if they added a digital SWTOR coloring book for a couple of patches instead of giving you anything to do with your character? would you consider that content? Would that be viable to you? I certainly hope not.

The term 'content', like many words we use in this industry, doesn't just have a literal meaning anymore. It's defined by experiences and opinions. While it can then never be absolute, it does mean that there's going to be a predominant opinion on most things. The major point in this discussion is that there is a lot of negative backlash from people who think that dailies are overdone, a potential cop out from the companies, and that they feel forced and/or punished by them.

It doesn't mean that SWTOR has all of these problems with their dailies, but they are certainly not breaking any ground to convince those people that dailies should be considered meaningful(content). Plus with any critical theory, you have to look at the surrounding ideas that interact with your specific concept. In this case, it would be a general belief that SWTOR hasn't provided a lot of meaningful content as a whole and that simply adding static daily hubs with small story is certainly not going to be 'content'

Sorry to get all philosophical.

[Psychlon]

It was urgently needed for the enjoyment of the end game, basically by most competitive players in PvP and PvE. I never said it couldn't be done nor that it was crucial to your success in PvE at that stage, in PvP I'd say it was and is needed for higher level play.

So you rather have them work on it now, document all the changes and work out all the kinks to later go back and have to go over the same process once again, really?

They said the customizable UI was only a start back when that was introduced...still no improvements unless you count this change to the buff frames. So with that in mind it would only be what, 1-3 years before they get around to it again.

To think that people took offense back when I compared the development pace to that of Blizzard 6 months ago...as it stands now Blizzard shines with their by industry standards horrible pace compared.

You really think they've been working on the ui for 1 year? We have no idea how long they did anything, I'd say they haven't done anything after they introduced the UI custom tool.

The majority of players didn't leave because of the UI, they left because promised open PvP wasn't working and Endgame PvE was bugged and I think we can all agree that it's much more annoying if you have to clear trash before the pylons 3-4 times just because they are bugged... again.

If you don't like to look on the bottom, move your personal stat window to the top and switch the buffs/ debuffs from top to bottom.

I can say that you couldn't play EQ2 content with this ui because no heal overlay, you have to click on the name to start healing the person, buff icons too small (which has been fixed now). However you just don't have the kind of content which would force you to have it to begin with.

There is no harm to learn an encounter, starting with the tactic and ending with whatever debuff is doing what, apart from knowing what kind of buff/ debuff is doing what class. Raider don't have an issue with it, they do however with bugs/ lags.

You say that we can't determine content based on likes and dislikes, but that's exactly how we determine what is content.

What if they added a digital SWTOR coloring book for a couple of patches instead of giving you anything to do with your character? would you consider that content? Would that be viable to you? I certainly hope not.

The term 'content', like many words we use in this industry, doesn't just have a literal meaning anymore. It's defined by experiences and opinions. While it can then never be absolute, it does mean that there's going to be a predominant opinion on most things. The major point in this discussion is that there is a lot of negative backlash from people who think that dailies are overdone, a potential cop out from the companies, and that they feel forced and/or punished by them.

It doesn't mean that SWTOR has all of these problems with their dailies, but they are certainly not breaking any ground to convince those people that dailies should be considered meaningful(content). Plus with any critical theory, you have to look at the surrounding ideas that interact with your specific concept. In this case, it would be a general belief that SWTOR hasn't provided a lot of meaningful content as a whole and that simply adding static daily hubs with small story is certainly not going to be 'content'

Sorry to get all philosophical.

Just because dailies may or may not be overdone doesn't change the fact that they are content, even if some people tend to think that only what they consider to be, is. Content is anything added to the game which gives you more stuff to do. You may like it or not but just because a basketball player isn't successful doesn't make him any less of a basketball player.
A new race is no new content (if it doesn't come with any new quests) because it doesn't add anything apart from a different colored face. UI customizations or facial reconstruction for your character = no content. New space mission (wheter you do the space thing or not) is certainly new content and people which might argue against it are only doing so because they differ between content for "them" and possible content for others.