Patch 5.2 Warlock discussion

[Kirroth]

If pets weren't so clunky ("pet travelling time, getting stuck, not attacking") I'd be OK with them.

That's what it comes down to, isn't it? Pets are more work than not having a pet, and they often don't deal their maximum potential DPS. The thing is, I bet you that Warlocks are balanced with that as part of the calculation. This means that if pet vs no-pet are equal on a simmed Patchwerk fight, then no-pet is ahead on every real fight where you're able to bypass all those little inefficiencies that pets have. That's what the Devs are probably so set to try and deal with.

Ideally, GoSac is a tradeoff. What you gain is the increased ease and efficiency of not having to manage a pet. Only right now, what you give up for that is nothing. There's absolutely no down side to GoSac. I think in part this is the Dev's own fault, though it's because they listened to the community.

We begged for the freedom to to choose between demon pets instead of being chained to a specific one by our spec. The Devs did their best to deliver, and they sort of did. Minor DPS differences aside you can freely use different demons, because minor DPS differences aside it doesn't matter. In a group situation they don't have any significant utility or buffs. Even the Imp's health buff is getting moved off them. They took out the unique spec interactions, like Imps procing instant Soul Fires or Felhunters hitting harder on targets with DoTs on them. Only now there's no interaction at all. My BM Hunter alt has a complex dance of buffing and being buffed by his pet, while my Warlock has none of that. The demon is, most of the time, a fire and forget DoT. The only effect of a different demon is to change what my Command Demon button does.

In short, the demon pets barely matter now, so many Warlocks resents the extra hassle of having to use one. When the option to ditch the annoying pet for equal or better DPS is dangled under ours noses, it's a very tempting offer. I'd love to see the Devs fix this by making the pets matter again, but that's not a fast or easy change. Instead they're doing the quick and dirty fix of slashing the DPS so that GoSac is lower on a simmed Patchwerk fight and roughly even on an actual play one. Which is very quick and very dirty, but mostly accomplishes their goal of not having GoSac be better in every way.

[jackvii]

We begged for the freedom to to choose between demon pets instead of being chained to a specific one by our spec. The Devs did their best to deliver, and they sort of did. Minor DPS differences aside you can freely use different demons, because minor DPS differences aside it doesn't matter. In a group situation they don't have any significant utility or buffs. Even the Imp's health buff is getting moved off them. They took out the unique spec interactions, like Imps procing instant Soul Fires or Felhunters hitting harder on targets with DoTs on them. Only now there's no interaction at all. My BM Hunter alt has a complex dance of buffing and being buffed by his pet, while my Warlock has none of that. The demon is, most of the time, a fire and forget DoT. The only effect of a different demon is to change what my Command Demon button does.

To be fair a BM Hunter is entirely pet focused where the equivalent Demonology spec is Meta focused. Hunters have always had more interaction with pets and rightly so, Warlocks have minions, not pets. Hence it's largely independent and merely an extended arm of choice abilities and dps.

It has really always been this way, Cata's pet interactions were poorly implemented and severely limiting to the class and in that respect I'm glad they're gone.

[jason1975]

... Try doing the same thing with the 2 targets simulations (if you have spare time ), it must be pretty awful for Destro.

The two target sim for destro is going to need some work. Currently what's posted on simulationcraft.org isn't even correct in that immolate has a higher priority than CB when havoc = 3 charges (that's a big mistake). Destro is about 16k dps ahead of affliction if you fix that (on live).

Now with the nerf to sac (reduces SB and CB's damage) and a buff to immolate/incinerate/conflag, we'll have to test if havoc should still be used with 1 CB or 3 single target spells. My gut says havoc should be used with CB, but we'll see.

Also, I plan to start to do some of the algorithms on when to use CB on the single target sim. Right now we know that Destro's sim is waaaaaay lower than the expected in game value because it just farts off excess CB's without regard to looking at procs (outside of DS and Skull Banner) and just blows all it's SB's as soon as it reaches execute without waiting for a proc or DS/Skull Banner.

In short, the Destro Simc profile is pretty stupid about it's ember usage.

So that the early sims are showing us about 4k dps behind affliction may actually mean that we're ahead in game (though I know affliction's profile isn't great either, but I think Destro's is a much bigger variance).

[Slatch]

I think you are getting somewhere. This is EXACTLY. WHY. NOBODY(which have their main goal of actually doing a lot of dps). wants to be forced back to use the pets. Blizz simply do not fix fight mechanics. We are almost done with 5.1 and they still haven't fixed pet/doomguard bug on Elegon, amazing isn't it?

As long as the class is balanced around knowing that a pet won't reach its theoretical dps then when it doesn't it shouldn't be a big deal. I may be a minority but I'm looking forward to having to use a pet again and seeing other locks use them too. The class just doesn't feel right without them. I really like the option of being able to sacrifice a pet for a percent or two loss, if controlling it is too much of a bother. But that shouldn't be what every lock does.

[Seiru]

Yeah, simcraft uploaded the latest revision on their website as a binary that everyone can download if you guys want to fool around with it. Just add ptr=1 to the simulation (or change Live to PTR in the options) to get PTR results.

[Denstrict]

I can see Blizzard giving us an ability that we sacrifice our pet on a 3 min CD which gives us a burst 25% dps boost for 25 sec. When we do this the sac button turns into a 1 sec summon ability so when the bonus wears off we are compelled to re-summon the pet again. This would allow us to sac the pet when it's inconvenient to have them out or for the dps boost, but to typically have them out.

[Xanatas]

I can see Blizzard giving us an ability that we sacrifice our pet on a 3 min CD which gives us a burst 25% dps boost for 25 sec. When we do this the sac button turns into a 1 sec summon ability so when the bonus wears off we are compelled to re-summon the pet again. This would allow us to sac the pet when it's inconvenient to have them out or for the dps boost, but to typically have them out.

my suggestion is a class without pet (sacrifice), and a "CD summon demon" to burst/utility.

I like GoSac

[Hellfury]

I can see Blizzard giving us an ability that we sacrifice our pet on a 3 min CD which gives us a burst 25% dps boost for 25 sec. When we do this the sac button turns into a 1 sec summon ability so when the bonus wears off we are compelled to re-summon the pet again. This would allow us to sac the pet when it's inconvenient to have them out or for the dps boost, but to typically have them out.

Original Sac at beta was something like that, everybody hated it

[xskarma]

Original Sac at beta was something like that, everybody hated it

Yep, everybody that even gave it the time of day to try it just summoned a pet again every time the boost was over. Was as bad as the Demo pet switching in 4.2, in clunkyness.

[Deleted]

Personally I have mixed feelings about having pets or being petless.

As demonology I love having pets. It feels so natural to have an army of imps as well as the two felguards killing things. For demo I can't see myself sacrificing my pet. GoServ or GoSup for me. I still have to deal with demented pet AI and buggy fights.

The other side of the coin I'm destruction and nothing feels more natural than sacrificing my pet to for power to further augment my chaotic magic. Kill it and absorb it's essence to better render my foes into piles of ash. Plus this gives me full scaling with all my stats (since only demo gets mastery scaling for pets) as well as avoiding issues when pet AI goes haywire.

With blizzard nerfing sacrifice they're hurting a lot of the versatility I felt, where i could swap to a spec and playstyle (pet or nopet) for what was optimal for the fight. Now it seems i'll be shoehorned into using pets regardless and be forced to suffer when the petderps happen (which they inevitably will, but at least the hunters will also have to suffer with me).

Lastly, lorewise are there any great demonologists know for their control of minions? Most of the evil warlocky casters in lore i can think of were known more for their use of the magic itself rather than using demons to do stuff for them.

[villie]

So you're suggesting the answer to poor encounter mechanics is a talent to avoid them, rather than to fix the encounter mechanics? Warlocks are not the only class with pet using specs (Hunter's don't even have a no-pet option) so I don't think Sac is the answer to that, or that those encounters are the reason for Sac to be in the game.

Come on Jessicka read my post properly!!! The whole thing is saying fix the dam mechanics and pet AI, if it was fixed then then GoSup wouldnt be so fucked over by them and 99% of the reason people take sac. The talents are ment to be a preferential choice and you know what they are atm, if you prefer to do less dps and enjoy bad pet ai and encounter mechanics fucking you over pick GoSup if you prefer not to have to deal with that pick GoSac, this is the ultimate irony, since the whole point of the talent system was to allow freedom of choice of playstyle with minimal impact on overall dps performance, and by god its working as intended much to blizz's embaressment since we are all choosing not to put up with the terrible pet AI and bad mechanics and avoid them. They need to fix these not destroy GoSac as you said we're not the only class that uses pets

[Gohzerlock]

Did you even read my post?? My whole post is saying fix the dam mechanics and pet AI, if it was fixed then then GoSup wouldnt be so fucked over by them and 99% of the reason people take sac. The talents are ment to be a preferential choice and you know what they are atm, if you prefer to do less dps and enjoy bad pet ai and encounter mechanics fucking you over pick GoSup if you prefer not to have to deal with that pick GoSac, this is the ultimate irony, since the whole point of the talent system was to allow freedom of choice of playstyle with minimal impact on overall dps performance, and by god its working as intended much to blizz's embaressment since we are all choosing not to put up with the terrible pet AI and bad mechanics and avoid them. They need to fix these not destroy GoSac as you said we're not the only class that uses pets

This is ultimately what irks me as well, they go from saying we'll have a new talent system for playstyle preference with no obvious choices like the last talent trees to you SHOULD be taking this or you should RARELY be taking this. Or even in regards to KJC you SHOULDN'T have this but atm it's there.

[Deleted]

Aye, I remember them saying we'd have choices between talents (which for the most part we kinda do, sure some talents are more pvp orientated but there's still choice) but for something that affects our playstyle as much as the grimoire's do I really want the choice.

I despise the current assist/defensive/passive stances our pets currently have. it makes managing our pets into a hassle. I really miss the old aggressive/defensive/passive stances we used to have, and to be honest all the hunter's i've spoken with feel the same.
hmm actually, anyone know why they changed our pet stances? It was changed ages ago (around firelands time i think, or i only really started despising it in firelands, can;'t really remember).

[Count Zero]

They didn't like pets automatically attacking things

[Holyground]

To the people claiming that we shouldn't play a lock if we didn't want a pet class, please just stop. Wanting to play a lock and not use a demon has been a part of our class for much longer than GoSac has existed.

I rolled a lock in vanilla. I leveled to 60 by Demo-Saccing a VW for the HP regen boost (after the first 5 points in Improved Corruption tbf - go go 2 sec cast time). I raided MC/BWL as DemoSac-Destro. I leveled to 70 with a sacced succubus + DoTs. I raided Kara/SSC as SM/Ruin with a pet finally! Ofc he was on passive the entire time as a Dark Pact bitch. I raided BT Destro with a sacced succubus.

Locks as as a pet class was really introduced in LK. Some of us have played a LONG time without a pet, and we were thrilled about having that option again. If pets weren't so clunky ("pet travelling time, getting stuck, not attacking") I'd be OK with them. Give all our pets the hunter speed boosts, change their attack patterns so they attack the target from any angle instead of trying to find its ass, and treat all attacks that pets do as if they were behind the target - as a starter list anyway. Until then, I'll gladly take my GoSac at equal dps to GoSxx thank you.

I pretty much call bullshit on this. When you first started out, you picked warlock for a reason. I'm not saying it was for pets, but the warlocks identity was always around having a pet. The you get to 60 and someone tells you a certain spec does more damage. So you do that spec.

Look if you don't like pets, then take gosac. Just don't demand it also does the most dos as well.

[crimsonhead]

About this "free to choose talent thing" any warlock that's worth their salt will choose KJC for tier 5, regardless. It's THE best option, the other two are so abysmal. I really question blizz's motive for what they want to do because I feel like they always take the easier route rather than a slightly sophisticated one.

Let us have GoSac, nerf a couple spells, keep it equal. Make it so some fights we have to choose. OR do what some others have said and BRING BACK PET INCORPORATION to a spec without making them spec specific (of course not the FG).

Sooo I dunno lets say a Felpups bite or a succy lash or an Imp firebolt have a chance to gen a burning ember? And for afflic? Make felpups bite, succy's lash and imps firebolt allow for your dots to tick faster for a time.

They could think of some creative way but their answer, as always for us, has been "nerf x, y and z, locks will work themselves out"

damn it man, damn it.

[Palmz]

The Grimoires seem nicely balanced right now for affliction anyway. I've had to use all three so far for H 25 man testing. Sticking with Service for Demo still.

[jason1975]

I pretty much call bullshit on this. When you first started out, you picked warlock for a reason. I'm not saying it was for pets, but the warlocks identity was always around having a pet. The you get to 60 and someone tells you a certain spec does more damage. So you do that spec.

Look if you don't like pets, then take gosac. Just don't demand it also does the most dos as well.

Much of the discussion in the last couple of pages with regards to GoSac vs. other Grimores is frankly bizzarre. The problem many of us Destro players have with nerfing GoSac is that we are now forced to use a Grimore that actually has a NEGATIVE synergy with our spec. We wanted them to FIX that, rather than just try and nerf GoSac into oblivion. Note that for multi-target fights, we're still going to use GoSac, so it's just an overall nerf to the spec.

GoSac: More ember generation (through gear or additional targets/havoc usage) = more ember spells (CB & SB) = synergy with mastery and all other stats = Synergy with Grimore (GoSac)

Pets don't have any synergy with mastery or ember spells, and as such have a negative scaling value (their relative DPS decreases as an overall share of our total dps because Mastery and additional targets give them no benefit).

I'm all for using a pet, just make it have some synergy with my spec.

[Grizelda]

They didn't like pets automatically attacking things

Well...at least they attacked things.

[Deleted]

As far as I can tell Shadowburn is still nerfed on the PTR, don't hesitate to remind GC on the topic of the US forums