Patch 5.2 Warlock discussion

[Xanatas]

destro pvp need buff in damage (conflagrate + 15% crit, immolate buff damage + rng empowered conflagrate crit without backdraft), and a CC istant to peel a target (disorient effect is better).

Demonology need a healing spell HOT in caster form (dark mending?) and a correction to demonic leap to make this ability targetable to a location like heroic leap. Need to fix void ray, animation and "direction".

Affliction need absoluly a healing spell istant in CD (destruction have massive healing from ember tap and "work"), or maybe drain life spell istant with CD like death syphon, but with a HOT. This change make maybe affliction viable VS melee and make usefull in pvp harvest of life. Affliction need also strong dot and low benefit from MG. And a CC to peel/snare effect or an istant haunt when proc shadow trance.

I'd like "carrion swarm" baseline with KB+slowing effect, like hurricane and old shadowflame. This change is great for pvp against melee.

[shinewaylee]

destro pvp need buff in damage (conflagrate + 15% crit, immolate buff damage + rng empowered conflagrate crit without backdraft), and a CC istant to peel a target (disorient effect is better).

Demonology need a healing spell HOT in caster form (dark mending?) and a correction to demonic leap to make this ability targetable to a location like heroic leap. Need to fix void ray, animation and "direction".

Affliction need absoluly a healing spell istant in CD (destruction have massive healing from ember tap and "work"), or maybe drain life spell istant with CD like death syphon, but with a HOT. This change make maybe affliction viable VS melee and make usefull in pvp harvest of life. Affliction need also strong dot and low benefit from MG. And a CC to peel/snare effect or an istant haunt when proc shadow trance.

I'd like "carrion swarm" baseline with KB+slowing effect, like hurricane and old shadowflame. This change is great for pvp against melee.

I think [Backlash] should be improved, it's 80's spell,which cannot go with 5.x now.Previous incinerate can make enough damage,while it can only 20Kat most.
New Backlash should povide 25% more damge and always critic,and even can work with magic damage,and have 12.5% chance.

[Deleted]

Aaaaaand another nerf to Destro. From what I see since yesterday on PTR there is no bonus ember when killing something with Shadowburn. Nice nice nice

[Deleted]

Aaaaaand another nerf to Destro. From what I see since yesterday on PTR there is no bonus ember when killing something with Shadowburn. Nice nice nice

I never liked the way destro seemed to rely heavily on (ab)using Shadowburn at the right times. If I were to choose, I'd rather have a single target rotation that relied heavily on awareness and skillful play rather than exploiting gimicks to have embers you weren't meant to have, by executing adds on fights that have those (namely adds that reward embers upon being killed by SB).
So hopefully you (we) get something in return for this "nerf".

[Xanatas]

I think [Backlash] should be improved, it's 80's spell,which cannot go with 5.x now.Previous incinerate can make enough damage,while it can only 20Kat most.
New Backlash should povide 25% more damge and always critic,and even can work with magic damage,and have 12.5% chance.

yes backlash have a very old design, need a refresh. And need to work with all attack and improve damage/always crit.

A carrion swarm baseline + slowing effect can help us vs melee

---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 12:44 PM ----------

I never liked the way destro seemed to rely heavily on (ab)using Shadowburn at the right times. If I were to choose, I'd rather have a single target rotation that relied heavily on awareness and skillful play rather than exploiting gimicks to have embers you weren't meant to have, by executing adds on fights that have those (namely adds that reward embers upon being killed by SB).
So hopefully you (we) get something in return for this "nerf".

Do you believe is possible lol?

---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 12:51 PM ----------

I play destro lock lol and i am prob the only one who will admit we are OP too little offensive buttons makes our few spells hit way to much, and its too easy to play and own people, i would like to see some cd/healing nerfs espeicaly for 5.2 so i can play destro without feeling faceroll.

with blood fear or without blood fear?

I play very well in bg destruction-GoSac with this talent, but without blood fear is painful, very painful.

Remeber: in 5.2 rogue and monk dps become semi-god.

---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 12:56 PM ----------

Redesigning of soul link is in order !

new soul link is the worst talent ever, is a good talent form me +GoSac for 20% healt, need a rework to make it functionally with a demon and without demon.

Maybe a flat reduction like flame glow new talent mage or a +20% healt buff with/without demon?

[Screwtape]

The difference between an offensive and a defensive spell is the primary ways in which you can use it. Just look at the rest of the tier. Burning Rush is meant to be a kiting/mobility tool, which is mainly used defensively. Sure you can use it to get around a pillar and chase, but it's not something that you would use simply to say, going offensively now.

Unbound Will is the same thing, you can use it defensively to get out of say a stun in a smoke bomb (something that will be insanely useful with Rogues getting buffed in 5.2). You wouldn't use it without some kind of CC on you though, so you can't use it offensively without first using it defensively.

Blood Fear was originally meant to be a way to get off Fear when getting pressured and being unable to cast. The problem with Blood Fear was the long range and the fact that Warlocks were using it offensively to get around healer positioning. Really the fact that it was instant made it OP, because we weren't using it for the intended purpose of peeling when unable to cast, we were using it all the time. This was amplified by the fact that Blood Fear has virtually no CD and replaced regular Fear, so we couldn't cast regular Fear if we wanted to. They also didn't take into consideration that a CC that could be targeted at a player would always be used offensively, unless you had to be CC'ed/damaged for it to work.

The new Blood Fear fulfills that intent, by providing us with a means to peel melee when we're being pressured, WITHOUT us being able to go off and instantly Blood Fear a healer 30 yards away. The fact that they changed it to now be a Horror effect instead of a Fear effect shows that they are actually listening. We will finally have a short CD to peel Warriors and DKs off of us, which will make us considerably stronger against those teams in 5.2.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 09:58 PM ----------



Two words: Berserker Rage

Your entire argument revolves around some aesthetic notion of design. Your argument for redesigning a spell is it's placement in the talent tree? Really? I keep seeing the word "OP" used but very few arguments actually related to balance. You just keep circling back to how the spell offends you from a design perspective. What does it matter if an ability is bizarre; if it's not breaking the game you better have a compelling reason to change it so drastically. (I actually do not care at all about representation arguments. Are warlocks over-represented is the only pertinent question and the answer there seems to be resoundingly no.) There has been no compelling reason, just hemming and hawing and snarky twitter posts. I would actually shut up immediately if a Blue poster said "We know there is dissatisfaction with warlocks but we don't think this spell is fun to play with and we're going to try to address warlocks further in the future". Instead the message is that we just have to make this change (neutering) and everything will be hunky dory. It's amusing that you try to frame this as a positive because all of the instances in which you claimed Blood Fear was being abused are when Blood Horror will be useless. Wherever warlocks are now, they will be going down after the patch. I guess you can be happy you weren't trained as you leave the match after your healer dies.

[Xanatas]

blood fear/horror in ptr is pointless vs caster, healer AND hunter. Is a talent, not a spell... a talent useless VS most classes in the game.

How to make it a "defensive" talent? Make it a debuff for X sec on a target, if the target hit the warlock with spell or ranged/melee attack > run in horror for 4 sec.

A warlock use a defensive talent, choose the target, and fix the problem with pets or demons... and works with all classes.

[Jessicka]

blood fear/horror in ptr is pointless vs caster, healer AND hunter. Is a talent, not a spell... a talent useless VS most classes in the game.

But useful against those that provide us with the biggest issues. It does not replace Fear, which can still be used against the affore mentioned ranged classes.

[Deleted]

Aaaaaand another nerf to Destro. From what I see since yesterday on PTR there is no bonus ember when killing something with Shadowburn. Nice nice nice

Whaaaaaat?!

God f***kng damnit!

*praying it's an oversight and not actually true*

However, if they want it that way, it's fine if they thing like Filth the Warlock thinks.

Becuase as it looks now, Destruction lost it's edge in any and all fights.
But it's the PTR, nothing is set in stone!

EDIT: Can't they atleast buff the Immolate damage by I don't know... 100% percent but keep the ember regeneration as is on it?

[Xanatas]

But useful against those that provide us with the biggest issues. It does not replace Fear, which can still be used against the affore mentioned ranged classes.

yes but is a talent not a spell, a talent must have more "power", right now is a talent too limited. New blood horror is usabile only against few classes and have the great issue: a pet/demon can "eat" the talent. In addiction a warlock can't choose the strongest target but is totally random in many situation.
Is very difficult to cast fear vs a good-medium hunter (deterrence, stampede, out of range and lock trapped, silencing shot, scatter shot, BW, feign death).

example: deep freeze is a spell baseline and work with all classes, 30 sec. CD. Blood horror/fear is a talent and work only VS few classes + "pet issue", 30 sec cd and health cost (low, actually).

I can agree with the change of blood fear/horror, but must reduce -few second- the CD of tier 30 talent to compensate the nerf maybe, or give an ability to take yard to cast like the awesome carrion swarm+slowing effect.

---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 03:02 PM ----------

Whaaaaaat?!

God f***kng damnit!

*praying it's an oversight and not actually true*

However, if they want it that way, it's fine if they thing like Filth the Warlock thinks.

Becuase as it looks now, Destruction lost it's edge in any and all fights.
But it's the PTR, nothing is set in stone!

EDIT: Can't they atleast buff the Immolate damage by I don't know... 100% percent but keep the ember regeneration as is on it?

except warlock's nerf :P

---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 03:43 PM ----------

i agree with new fel amour (flat 10% damage reduction), i'd love too if come back "demon skin" (old demon armour at low level) to increase armour by a %, likewise "inner fire".

And pls, give back the icon in right corner screen of fel armour...

[Brusalk]

Aaaaaand another nerf to Destro. From what I see since yesterday on PTR there is no bonus ember when killing something with Shadowburn. Nice nice nice

WHAT!

WHAT!

WHAT!?!

That is both the most interesting and annoying aspect of Destro on live. Being effective at getting the KBs was a big reward, but if this is true then there goes that whole aspect of Destro.

They had better have some pretty DAMN NICE buffs for Destro in the PvE balance pass to make up for these (relatively) huge nerfs to Destros damage.
- 4% Cleave Damage
- 33% reduction in AoE range
- No extra ember back from Shadowburn sniping

[Xanatas]

WHAT!

WHAT!

WHAT!?!

That is both the most interesting and annoying aspect of Destro on live. Being effective at getting the KBs was a big reward, but if this is true then there goes that whole aspect of Destro.

They had better have some pretty DAMN NICE buffs for Destro in the PvE balance pass to make up for these (relatively) huge nerfs to Destros damage.
- 4% Cleave Damage
- 33% reduction in AoE range
- No extra ember back from Shadowburn sniping

destruction have low damage single target, and blizzard want to "force" destruction like "cleave class"... and every patch note i can read nerf to direct damage on single target (and cleave), and huge aoe range reduction... wtf????

really, i don't understand how blizzard work with this class.

[Hatelocker]

I wouldn't jump ship just yet as GC has repeatedly said destro is low and affi is high. I would advise not going crazy til the tuning notes start coming in as I find it hard to believe they won't buff it some from its relative stance on live. Also, while I can see them getting rid of the ember back from killing blow on shadowburn I don't see why on earth they would do that but still let affliction get 4 shards back from drain souling a dying mob. I've always thought getting back 4 shards was OP and getting rids of destro's equivalant all together and still letting affi get back 4 shards would be just stupid imho. If they are going to go that route then they should either leave as is or take that mechanic away from both specs.

[Xanatas]

Guys remember that blood horror doesnt replace fear, you'll have both.

yes, but is a talent not a spell baseline. I can agree with a spell baseline working vs all classes (likewise deep freeze), not a talent working vs few classes.

A lock with blood horror can terrify an hunter's pet o an aberration o a demon, but not the huter, the priest and the warlock. A talent to terrify a pet and few classes.

Every talents defensive/offensive in game work vs all classes, warlock is (always) the exception.


I hate other talents in 60 tier, burning rush must have a CD and different healt cost, unboud will need a 3 sec protection against stun/cc/magic effect afterward.

[Jessicka]

yes but is a talent not a spell, a talent must have more "power", right now is a talent too limited. New blood horror is usabile only against few classes and have the great issue: a pet/demon can "eat" the talent. In addiction a warlock can't choose the strongest target but is totally random in many situation.
Is very difficult to cast fear vs a good-medium hunter (deterrence, stampede, out of range and lock trapped, silencing shot, scatter shot, BW, feign death).

Situational talent is situational. Against a caster team, I think you're supposed to be more inclined to use UW anyway; part of the whole problem was BF was so comfortably default against anything.

[xskarma]

Aaaaaand another nerf to Destro. From what I see since yesterday on PTR there is no bonus ember when killing something with Shadowburn. Nice nice nice

Wow. Don't have a Destro spec at the moment to check, but that would seriously kill the specs damage out put. If it's true it also means that we are going to have to relearn how to play Destro cause it will be totally different playstyle after.

I agree wholeheartedly that this sucks. There better be some AMAZING buffs to Destro coming to keep it viable.

[Shadowygoodness]

Situational talent is situational. Against a caster team, I think you're supposed to be more inclined to use UW anyway; part of the whole problem was BF was so comfortably default against anything.

That has to do with the other 2 talents of the tier being so shit as much as BF being OP. UW would be cool if you didn't have to sacrifice a resounding fifth of your hp in situations that you are most likely receiving damage already; Burning Rush is kinda cool in 5.2, but anyone that has ever used BR knows that talent eats through a health pool at the speed of light.

[Nicola]

I was going to type out how all of the other ranged classes work out in terms of CDs, but that would take a while and I'd get bored. Point is, Warlocks have a lot of survivability and a lot of defensive CDs. In 5.2, we're only getting more with the Fel Armor buff. The only reason Warlocks aren't very strong in arena right now is because of the insane amount of Warriors on the ladders. Warriors essentially hard counter Warlocks, primarily because of how hard it is for us to peel them. If there were less Warriors on the ladders, Warlocks would actually be more competitive.

We already have great pressure as Affliction, amazing burst as Destro (if set up right with the right comp), and even Demo has its uses in 3s. The only teams that consistently beat me as a Warlock are Warrior teams, and maybe Ferals and Shatterplay. SPriests are getting nerfed in 5.2, Ferals are getting nerfed, and Warriors are getting changed (not sure if for better or worse.) Let's just say I'm happy to be a lock and I hate how many people just can't quit whining about how much we suck, when we're really not a bad class at all.

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Sorry, just had to do that.
Just asking, but how close are you to 1k rating? Since again I'm reading a PvP post that's saying exactly the opposite of how it is in reality.


Lots of survivability and a lot of defensive cooldowns, do you even believe your own words? In cataclysm, our survivability was as good as it is now, if we would have a 70% uptime on both unending resolve and dark regeneration.
I'm sorry for having to burst your bubble, but our survivability is utterly shit, almost every single spec has better survivability then we currently have.

As of damage, it's a joke as well, especially affliction pressure is a joke right now. Destro burst ain't great either. You can pull off a 120k chaosbolt by burning everything and not getting interrupted, which doesn't happen that often, and for the rest you are just tickling your enemy.
The only real use warlocks have offensively right now is their decent damage with dark soul, and spamming blood fear.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1259056-5-2-UA-Locks
Take a look at this thread, I've pointed out pretty much everything that's wrong with affliction on the first page.

And people complain about warlocks because they are actually in a really terrible state right now, especially at higher ranks where people know what to do against you.
You can be happy about warlocks, but as they say; in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king. Just because you meet people that don't know what to do against you, it doesn't mean the class is fine.

I play destro lock lol and i am prob the only one who will admit we are OP too little offensive buttons makes our few spells hit way to much, and its too easy to play and own people, i would like to see some cd/healing nerfs espeicaly for 5.2 so i can play destro without feeling faceroll.

Yeah... And I beat fully geared destro locks 1v1 on my quest geared monk...
Destruction is only good in battlegrounds when you can just spam chaosbolt when noone is targeting you. Just like arcane mages spamming AB. Tons of damage, but once you get focused, you are going down fast.

[Deleted]

Wow. Don't have a Destro spec at the moment to check, but that would seriously kill the specs damage out put. If it's true it also means that we are going to have to relearn how to play Destro cause it will be totally different playstyle after.

I agree wholeheartedly that this sucks. There better be some AMAZING buffs to Destro coming to keep it viable.

Just to be clear, they "just" removed the extra Ember awarded when you did the final blow, you still get your Ember back if the target dies within 5 sec.

[Xanatas]

Situational talent is situational. Against a caster team, I think you're supposed to be more inclined to use UW anyway; part of the whole problem was BF was so comfortably default against anything.

the question is: why a "talent situational" and not a "simply talent"? is a medical prescription to have a talent situational ?
Warlock in pvp have trouble vs all classes atm, without blood fear. Ok, atm blood fear is "OP" (every classes in game have 1-2 ability op...), but a rework to make it > cast on target, last X sec > target hit warlock with the debuff > target run in horror... is a good idea to make a spell viable, defensive, no OP, and bypass the issue with pet/demon/hunter trap/aberration.

A solution for pvp is new blood horror "on touch" vs melee attack (ptr) AND carrion swarm baseline (likewise cone of cold), + slowing effect likewise old shadowflame spell. This spell can make viable pvp vs melee.

Unboun will cost too many health and one millisecond afterward a warlock can take another stun/CC and burning rush is a talent cool in 5.2 but health cost is exhasperated and this design is very veru poor, for me is bettere a CD like rogue's sprint and a minor healt's cost.