[Priest] 5.2 PTR notes

[Deleted]

+1, It feels completely unfair that we have to take (another) hit in pve because of pvp. They need to put a stop to those kind of restrain once and for all.

I generally couldn't care less about nerfs usually -you are up one patch then down the other- but the attitude coming from the commentary behind these changes to Shadow has me concerned. First, because of people having complaints in PvP but not being able to put their finger on the problem, they nerf a bit of everything; healing, damage, survivability and utility. Realising that maybe it was a bit too much they give a buff to damage which was already needed from a PvE perspective and tht could have been that. But, yet again to nebulous PvP concerns, they basically take these buffs to damage back. I have no problem with nerfs if they know what they are nerfing and why, but right now it seems we as players of the Shadow spec are suffering because the devs lack a clear vision of what we are about; right now we are the DoT spec whose DoTs can't be too strong due to multidot cheesing, we can't have too much single damage in case we have too much burst in PvP, the hybrid spec who can't be seen to do too much healing

[Martinussen]

I generally couldn't care less about nerfs usually -you are up one patch then down the other- but the attitude coming from the commentary behind these changes to Shadow has me concerned. First, because of people having complaints in PvP but not being able to put their finger on the problem, they nerf a bit of everything; healing, damage, survivability and utility. Realising that maybe it was a bit too much they give a buff to damage which was already needed from a PvE perspective and tht could have been that. But, yet again to nebulous PvP concerns, they basically take these buffs to damage back. I have no problem with nerfs if they know what they are nerfing and why, but right now it seems we as players of the Shadow spec are suffering because the devs lack a clear vision of what we are about; right now we are the DoT spec whose DoTs can't be too strong due to multidot cheesing, we can't have too much single damage in case we have too much burst in PvP, the hybrid spec who can't be seen to do too much healing

TLDR: We're supposed to be good at alot of things, just not good enough to be good in any of it?

[jonish]

I love how shadow priests are so up in arms about being nerfed. It's an undeniable fact that shadow PvP is too powerful, they have strong heals (they can heal as mush as disc FFS), strong utility, and strong damage. They needed a nerf end of story.

I don't get the sky is falling attitude, the only nerf I see in the (official) patch notes that affects PVE is the glyph of mind spike. All the big nerfs to shadow are related to healing, which has no effect on PVE. If you have to heal in PVE as shadow, your raid is doing it wrong.

Shadow PVE has been in a terrible place since MoP Beta, and it will continue to be that way because of the changes they do not want to implement because of shadow pvp.

The other issue is that shadow needs fixes that go beyond just a generic pve dps increase and those problems lie in poor mechanic implementation , poor talent choices and poor scaling with gear. All these issues can be resolved but it would force Blizzard to admit they shit the bed, which is something they are never willing to do until it is forced upon them.

---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 08:01 PM ----------

GC has tweeted before that they really don't know how to buff shadow or how to fix it.

Then they should be listening to their community , because direct and amazing fixes have come directly from the Spriest community and have yet to be implemented. Hell the player base solved the riddle of how to fix shadow before MoP ever went live, and yet nothing has been done still.

[Martinussen]

Then they should be listening to their community , because direct and amazing fixes have come directly from the Spriest community and have yet to be implemented. Hell the player base solved the riddle of how to fix shadow before MoP ever went live, and yet nothing has been done still.

What did the player base come up with though? just curious.

[zito]

Then they should be listening to their community , because direct and amazing fixes have come directly from the Spriest community and have yet to be implemented. Hell the player base solved the riddle of how to fix shadow before MoP ever went live, and yet nothing has been done still.

They don't listen unless you have statistical numbers.

[laplacedemon]

And when you have numbers, it's either "Simcraft is flawed", "Raidbots/WoL data is skewed" or the new one, "You can't balance 5.2 with 5.1 information". Not saying this out of frustration or anything, but I am really curious what kind of data developers use to balance specs right now.

[Twintop]

And when you have numbers, it's either "Simcraft is flawed", "Raidbots/WoL data is skewed" or the new one, "You can't balance 5.2 with 5.1 information". Not saying this out of frustration or anything, but I am really curious what kind of data developers use to balance specs right now.

This is exactly what I was thinking. All of those points are completely valid (and I say this as a very minor SimC developer), but when you have different sources generating/pulling their data in different ways, both in theoretical and in in evidence from the game, and all of their data says the same thing...there might be a problem worth looking in to.

[Deleted]

TLDR: We're supposed to be good at alot of things, just not good enough to be good in any of it?

Actually no, the TLDR would be " wish the devs would make their minds up one way or the other about what Shadow spec should be".

[Deleted]

And when you have numbers, it's either "Simcraft is flawed", "Raidbots/WoL data is skewed" or the new one, "You can't balance 5.2 with 5.1 information". Not saying this out of frustration or anything, but I am really curious what kind of data developers use to balance specs right now.

Well, the remaining options are seemingly just GC's opinion or the spec representation, neither is hardly more accurate. I wish they'd state what kind of data or "proof" they want.

[HPLathus]

I don't trust things like sim craft/raid bots/dr raid or whatever they are to saves life as far as stats go.

[Martinussen]

Actually no, the TLDR would be " wish the devs would make their minds up one way or the other about what Shadow spec should be".

doesn't work any better : /

It could all be fixed if they would just give in and change spell dmg according to wether or not you're attacking a player target or a pve target

[Crudelitas]

I don't trust things like sim craft/raid bots/dr raid or whatever they are to saves life as far as stats go.

still they're reasonable sources developed by the community. of course they have flaws, but nobody refers to them as the main resource for class development.

in any case, they should be considered, not totally ignored.

[Drye]

Then they should be listening to their community , because direct and amazing fixes have come directly from the Spriest community and have yet to be implemented. Hell the player base solved the riddle of how to fix shadow before MoP ever went live, and yet nothing has been done still.

I haven't seen much useful posts that would make real solid fixes. There's a strong difference between suggesting something, and having something actually work. For instance, i have seen the "buff MF, it will fix all our problems", you cant do that because then all the lvl 45 talents other than sw;I get devalued. You also cant give shadow a dps cd that isn't talented because our pvp burst would be even stronger. These are the two most common changes that people continue to give and both are just a waste of time.

The best way to fix shadow would be to just separate PvP from PvE. Other than that, the only other thing would be to give the spec more synergy within it's secondary stats.

[Granyala]

The best way to fix shadow would be to just separate PvP from PvE. Other than that, the only other thing would be to give the spec more synergy within it's secondary stats.

MB + DP Instant application hit now deal X% less damage, when cast on a Player Characters. DP Instant application damage to Non Player Characters has been increased by Y%."

There ya go. I just fixed Shadow PvE single target DPS, w/o making multidot stronger and gave you an option to completely eliminate the PvP Burst problem as you see fit.

And that's w/o causing "confusing different mechanics in PvP and PvE" that GC seem sooooo afraid of.

Seriously guys.. It can't be that hard to do.

[Deleted]

Their mistake is not buffing MF from the beginning. Another mistake is binding MF to the new solace talent because they can't fix it this way now. Too late to design a new solace talent. I don't think they will buff any shadow spell or talent any time soon...

[Drye]

Their mistake is not buffing MF from the beginning. .

Straight. Up. Face. Palm.

[Deleted]

I haven't seen much useful posts that would make real solid fixes. There's a strong difference between suggesting something, and having something actually work. For instance, i have seen the "buff MF, it will fix all our problems", you cant do that because then all the lvl 45 talents other than sw;I get devalued. You also cant give shadow a dps cd that isn't talented because our pvp burst would be even stronger. These are the two most common changes that people continue to give and both are just a waste of time.

The best way to fix shadow would be to just separate PvP from PvE. Other than that, the only other thing would be to give the spec more synergy within it's secondary stats.

Do you actually think it's more important to keep every single talent viable (they aren't atm, some talents, for all classes, are designed almost purely for pvp) than to get our class properly balanced? I couldn't care less if I couldn't use anything but insanity if that meant me doing competitive dps (and there's nothing stopping them from simply nerfing insanity after buffing mind flay, would still be a net buff for mb compared to flcd, but flcd would still have its place for fights with heavy movement).

[Yvaelle]

Straight. Up. Face. Palm.

To be fair, Mind Flay is hitting pretty weak this expansion - it could use a buff - but that's obviously not a be-all-end-all fix. (It would have to be like a 50% buff to have any impact at all, which is pretty silly)

Making Devouring Plague a flat DoT with no upfront damage again would be a good move. If that's too big a PvP nerf - fixing a PvP nerf to Shadow is much easier at this point than fixing Shadow PvE - just give us Phantasm back (Disc would <3 us, too!). Then we'd be dotty but not bursty - my PvP half is fine with that. I'm totally OK with less burst (even MY burst) in pvp, and would gladly trade that for more utility or survivability if we suddenly became underpowered in PvP ^^

[Crudelitas]

Their mistake is not buffing MF from the beginning. Another mistake is binding MF to the new solace talent because they can't fix it this way now. Too late to design a new solace talent. I don't think they will buff any shadow spell or talent any time soon...

it wasn't a solution in the beginning as well. buffing MF would devaluate FDCL, dropping it to the last spot in the priority list, and there would be no reason to pick it at all. it is well known that it's not the way to fix shadow dps since like ages ago. seriously.

[Drye]

Do you actually think it's more important to keep every single talent viable (they aren't atm, some talents, for all classes, are designed almost purely for pvp) than to get our class properly balanced? I couldn't care less if I couldn't use anything but insanity if that meant me doing competitive dps (and there's nothing stopping them from simply nerfing insanity after buffing mind flay, would still be a net buff for mb compared to flcd, but flcd would still have its place for fights with heavy movement).

Yes I do. Personally, I hate FDCL with a passion. MS procs are not fun nor enjoyable for me, I do really like the new SW;I tho. But you cant look at this from a players perspective, you have to look from theirs from both a PvE and PvP view. With this new talent system, they want to have all talents viable or at least viable in different situations.

To be fair, Mind Flay is hitting pretty weak this expansion - it could use a buff - but that's obviously not a be-all-end-all fix. (It would have to be like a 50% buff to have any impact at all, which is pretty silly)

Making Devouring Plague a flat DoT with no upfront damage again would be a good move. If that's too big a PvP nerf - fixing a PvP nerf to Shadow is much easier at this point than fixing Shadow PvE - just give us Phantasm back (Disc would <3 us, too!). Then we'd be dotty but not bursty - my PvP half is fine with that. I'm totally OK with less burst (even MY burst) in pvp, and would gladly trade that for more utility or survivability if we suddenly became underpowered in PvP ^^

Mf is very weak this expansion. Honestly, I think they've made such a strong pvp spec/rotation that it's very hard for them to "fix" weak dps in a PvE situation. Which is why I think adding some extra component to secondary stats might help it. Since pvp gear tends to lack secondary stats and in most cases we get trained so much in pvp players just stack resil.