5.2 Shaman changes

[binkenstein]

If there're plenty of theorycrafters in the Shaman community why do I see only this post

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...75?page=46#911

in US PTR class issues threat trying to address the problem we may have with haste scaling.
I agree that MMO-C's forum doesn't fit heavy theorycrafting site, but that thread is the board to show some of your calculations/thoughts/opinions/concerns etc. Opposite to EU forums that one is the thread someone reads on. Especially if it will be written by well-known theorycrafters.

And I don't see there posts concerning other mechanics problems? 2 targets cleave and oom, constant switches, other secondary stats scaling issues (not as important and punishing as haste one is but still).

Again, theorycrafting comes to nothing when fights like Tsulon heroic or Garalon heroic comes. Or Sinestra. On fights like these, where we struggle, and there personal opinions/feelings/even semi-statistics data > theorycrafting.

I don't want to insult you. I just one someone like you, well-known theorycrafter, someone who would be heard, brought own thoughts about QoL or just number tuning to that threat

Because a lot of my feedback doesn't go via the wow forums. I've sent a few tweets at Ghostcrawler (don't often get a reply, but that's probably because he doesn't have something he can reply back with) and there are one or two other methods as well.

Posting here what I posted on the Official Forums.
Like Endus stated earlier, our changes are pretty much just bringing talents we don't use in line with ones we do. There really isn't any substantive change to the underlying problem and relying on set bonuses each tier for balance is very trying (and generally disappointing.)

From what I understand, they're refining mechanics before doing a numbers pass. Based on an old tweet from GC I'd expect to see a buff for Elemental in there. I will point out that Crit isn't that bad for us anymore, but I do feel like Elemental scaling can be improved in general.

Just a matter of differences in definition of "Quality of Life." QOL changes are generally things that don't actually affect power level but make the play experience more enjoyable. All of those are utility benefits, and in the case of gaining SR is a very real power gain in terms of survivability.

For a real QOL change delinking the Flame and Earth Shock CD would go a long ways. This was especially frustrating with our current 4pc where the shared CD meant we couldn't really realize the theoretical benefit it presented. It isn't really that significant of a DPS increase, but the frustration that comes from it is pretty real and disproportionate to the problem they are trying to solve with the shared shock CD. It is a relic of many years past when burst was a concern, but we've been past by several classes in terms of burst but this artifact is still here. Even delinking Flame Shock from the other two would be a nice gesture. That pretty much is just wish listing though.

Splitting the Earth & Flame Shock cooldowns isn't going to happen. The intent is that it's a choice players have to make, rather than just going "refresh FS, hit ES at 7 LS charges, blah blah". I will say that Frost Shock should be unlinked from the two so that kiting is possible.

[Moshne]

From what I understand, they're refining mechanics before doing a numbers pass. Based on an old tweet from GC I'd expect to see a buff for Elemental in there. I will point out that Crit isn't that bad for us anymore, but I do feel like Elemental scaling can be improved in general.

The relative disparity in value of Crit as compared to our other stats isn't as bad now, that is correct. However, our actual raw scaling with our secondary stats as compared to other casters is still very low. The fact that all of our stats are equally poor in terms of impact on DPS isn't a mark in its favor. I know both of us have made extensive posts on the subject of relative stat scaling. The trouble is distinguishing poor scaling as a symptom of a problem vs. the problem itself and providing articulate feedback on that subject in a way that motivates a change. As a rule the devs haven't been terribly sympathetic to claims of "we need better scaling" for any class, so I'm trying to explain the cause of the issue.

Splitting the Earth & Flame Shock cooldowns isn't going to happen. The intent is that it's a choice players have to make, rather than just going "refresh FS, hit ES at 7 LS charges, blah blah". I will say that Frost Shock should be unlinked from the two so that kiting is possible.

I know they don't intend to do it, but I'm saying the value they are trying to preserve isn't terribly high. It also severely impacts our ability to multidot. I'd think unlinking Frost Shock would be less likely to happen as it would give the ability to follow up an Earth Shock with a Frost Shock for better instant cast damage/burst in PVP. I'm not sure it is really a valid concern, but I think that was the original intent in having a linked CD in the first place.

[themaster24]

Well what's going to happen? In the last few builds, there are only very few changes, as we all know. They've let totally op fire mages let go live, they have been letting elemental shaman doing shit dps for 6 months at least by release of 5.2. They've let combat do overpowered cleave damage for over 2 years now, they've let affliction warlocks dominate, just as fire mages do now.

It looks like they don't see a real problem, so buffing a little CL damage is already enough. Wait for the comment, that we should't relearn our class, so they revert that change!

I'm still kind of frustrated by the whole t12 2p debacle. We were finally doing good, well, ele at least, and when time came for DS, blizz knew that if things didn't change, all ele shams would keep their 2p. Blizz comes out and says they understand that the 2p is allowing ele to be competitive, but they don't like that the set bonus is so good that people will keep it no matter what, so they'll have to make some changes. So, instead of making some real changes to ele, like possibly rolling some form of the 2p into ele at the base level, they just nerfed the 2p into oblivion, gave a small buff to shamanism, and went along their merry little way.

Then many people thought that they would implement the idea in MoP with the PE talent. Of course that didn't happen.

P.S. As you can tell I'm still a little bitter about it all ;p

[SenSayNyu]

Shamanistic rage cannot be used whie you're silenced if it could be used while you were silenced then it would remove silences but it cannot be used while silenced

As I thought, thanks. Time to farm PvP gear for my holy paladin.

[Spacepunch]

Splitting the Earth & Flame Shock cooldowns isn't going to happen. The intent is that it's a choice players have to make, rather than just going "refresh FS, hit ES at 7 LS charges, blah blah". I will say that Frost Shock should be unlinked from the two so that kiting is possible.

The same argument can be made to keep frost shock linked as well, you have to choose if you want to do dmg or get away.

[Endus]

I know they don't intend to do it, but I'm saying the value they are trying to preserve isn't terribly high. It also severely impacts our ability to multidot.

FWIW, I don't think multidotting is something every ranged spec needs to have. It has strengths on some fights, sure; I'm fine with us not being great for those, as long as we have other strengths, like cleave AoE, and have competitive single-target DPS to justify our presence on all the rest of the fights that don't rely on multitarget mechanics.

We're not there, of course, which is the issue. I just don't necessarily agree that improving our multidot is something that needs doing.

I'd think unlinking Frost Shock would be less likely to happen as it would give the ability to follow up an Earth Shock with a Frost Shock for better instant cast damage/burst in PVP. I'm not sure it is really a valid concern, but I think that was the original intent in having a linked CD in the first place.

I agree, that's why I've proposed a few times in the past that they give Frost Shock a Fulmination-lite effect, discharging every LS charge above 2/3. It's only Elemental that really can't afford to use it in PvP for kiting; Resto doesn't need ES/FS for anything really, and Enhancement can use any of the three somewhat interchangeably, as I assume is intended. Elemental gets so much damage from Flame Shock (via the Lava Burst effect) and Earth Shock (via Fulmination) that it doesn't really have "free" shock cooldowns to use Frost Shock on, not without losing a lot of damage. And not just losing it that cast, but delaying any possible burst until 6 seconds after you stop shocking to kite.

If it were tied to a lesser form of Fulmination, it would still be a DPS loss to use it over Earth Shock, but not nearly as significant a loss, making the sacrifice more reasonable for Elemental. This keeps it out of the PvE rotation entirely, and we're not able to do back-to-back shocks, either.

Removing the CD's another way to go, but I worry that would simplify the rotation too much; the shared shock CD is one of three mechanics that shapes Elemental gameplay, the other two being Lava Surge and Fulmination.

[Deleted]

When i read something like this i want to puke over my table.

Where's the line between "needs a nerf" and "re-learning their class mid-expansion"? With such kind of logic they can scrap any major class change mid-expansion.

I've been sitting here laughing for 5 minutes now. Re-learning your class because you have to interrupt a cast, as opposed to simply barf your silence over the enemy?

That's some of the flimsiest drivel I've read from Blizzard in months. It's absolute rubbish and does not make any sense at all.

[Deleted]

I find myself puzzled over how Blizzard actually pulls it off.

Because they don't.

I just don't see how a single spec has been rubbish since Season 5, with no effort to make any changes.

[Rafal]

Something like "If target dies having Flame shock on, the CD of your shock spells resets" would be really great for such fights. I don't even mind to have a glyph for it

0o0o0o I like this idea, I don't think it should be baseline though...not sure if a glyph would work either because then it would probably be mandatory.

of course you have to consider the side effects too. like what if your spreading flame shock to aoe targets, that die quickly?

[binkenstein]

The relative disparity in value of Crit as compared to our other stats isn't as bad now, that is correct. However, our actual raw scaling with our secondary stats as compared to other casters is still very low. The fact that all of our stats are equally poor in terms of impact on DPS isn't a mark in its favor. I know both of us have made extensive posts on the subject of relative stat scaling. The trouble is distinguishing poor scaling as a symptom of a problem vs. the problem itself and providing articulate feedback on that subject in a way that motivates a change. As a rule the devs haven't been terribly sympathetic to claims of "we need better scaling" for any class, so I'm trying to explain the cause of the issue.

I know they don't intend to do it, but I'm saying the value they are trying to preserve isn't terribly high. It also severely impacts our ability to multidot. I'd think unlinking Frost Shock would be less likely to happen as it would give the ability to follow up an Earth Shock with a Frost Shock for better instant cast damage/burst in PVP. I'm not sure it is really a valid concern, but I think that was the original intent in having a linked CD in the first place.

It's not just secondary stats. Last time I checked, we had the lowest Int scaling as well.

FWIW, I don't think multidotting is something every ranged spec needs to have. It has strengths on some fights, sure; I'm fine with us not being great for those, as long as we have other strengths, like cleave AoE, and have competitive single-target DPS to justify our presence on all the rest of the fights that don't rely on multitarget mechanics.

We're not there, of course, which is the issue. I just don't necessarily agree that improving our multidot is something that needs doing.

I agree, that's why I've proposed a few times in the past that they give Frost Shock a Fulmination-lite effect, discharging every LS charge above 2/3. It's only Elemental that really can't afford to use it in PvP for kiting; Resto doesn't need ES/FS for anything really, and Enhancement can use any of the three somewhat interchangeably, as I assume is intended. Elemental gets so much damage from Flame Shock (via the Lava Burst effect) and Earth Shock (via Fulmination) that it doesn't really have "free" shock cooldowns to use Frost Shock on, not without losing a lot of damage. And not just losing it that cast, but delaying any possible burst until 6 seconds after you stop shocking to kite.

If it were tied to a lesser form of Fulmination, it would still be a DPS loss to use it over Earth Shock, but not nearly as significant a loss, making the sacrifice more reasonable for Elemental. This keeps it out of the PvE rotation entirely, and we're not able to do back-to-back shocks, either.

Removing the CD's another way to go, but I worry that would simplify the rotation too much; the shared shock CD is one of three mechanics that shapes Elemental gameplay, the other two being Lava Surge and Fulmination.

Two things. First, we don't need to multi-dot. Just because we have a dot doesn't mean it's necessary to have it on every target.
Second, it's true that if Frost Shock were removed from the shared cooldown it would need to be changed, as a constant slow like that might be overpowered in PvP.

[Moshne]

It's not just secondary stats. Last time I checked, we had the lowest Int scaling as well.

This is related. Our actual spell coefficients (pure Int scaling) aren't drastically different from other classes. However, because we get so little value from our secondary stats, it lowers the total value we get from Int as well as all the stats have a symbiotic relationship on their value. The end result is all of our stats scale more slowly with ilvl, and as a result our damage lags behind.

---------- Post added 2013-01-26 at 02:18 AM ----------

I can't seem to edit my post, so sorry for the double post.

Second, it's true that if Frost Shock were removed from the shared cooldown it would need to be changed, as a constant slow like that might be overpowered in PvP.

Of course we don't have to have the ability to do it, but it is still awkward design and a very unique limitation on our class. Additionally, it severely limits our ability to take advantage of one of our class mechanics in Lava Surge. Maybe that is the dev design, but the end result is it made our current 4pc bonus feel like a liability, when it could have been really neat. Delinking our Flame Shock and Earth Shock isn't going to suddenly turn us into shadowpriests or moonkin.

Elemental has acquired this weird "Stockholm Syndrome" of being comfortable with our own mediocrity. Part of what has allowed other classes to receive changes and buffs is an active community of advocates for it. The DK community, for instance, has a very active IRC channel with dev participation. We need to stop tempering our expectations and start actually trying to get our problems fixed. There is nothing wrong with tossing out ideas and letting the dev team worry about keeping them balanced. The current Prot paladin design, as one example, was essentially taken in entirety from player suggestion, and the response from the playerbase has been extremely positive.

[Purpleisbetter]

So in short, for my second raid i normally rotate my r.druid/s.priest depending on fight.

Now S.Priest pve wise is, crap. It deals low damage, and its beyond then simply boring. Is BOOOOOOOOORING, at least.

Now i'm gearing up my second love, enhancement shaman (posted here few times looking for hints); i've read about 39 pages where 37 are crowded of Elemental complains (wich are the same i've for shadowpriests, ok damage in multi target; subpar AoE, laughable single target) so i couldn't really grasp the state of enhancement.

I'm aware that this raiding tier isn't very melee friendly, but in this raid there is a melee spot left empty and i think i'm going to take it, to leave place for a warlock.

Is it worth it? Ho does Enhancement scale with upcoming gear?
I don't really care about topping (mind you, my main for mop is an Affliction lock :X ) so i'm more up for not pathetic damage (hello spriest!) and a fun time (hello again spriest!).

[Teriz]

And Enhancement is beating fury warriors on most fights. I wasn't assuming the average of the Warrior's two DPS specs or something. I was basing it on the top Warrior spec for the fights in question (which is pretty much Fury, every time, right now).

I'm not the one being obtuse, dude.

Like Xanda posted; http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/ Enhancement is ahead of Fury, overall. There's some fights Fury pulls ahead, but it's by no means "worse" to bring an Enhancement, overall.

Enhance is doing pretty solid, but holy crap at Elemental.

Anyone got any idea how to fix that?

[Deleted]

Elemental got SR for additional survivability. Those "buffs to unused talents" that you dismiss were also QOL buffs, since now we have better options, across all specs. Stormlash no longer has a shorter radius than most buffs. Flame Shock had the glyph rolled in, freeing a glyph slot for Ele in PvE and giving Enh a slight flexibility boost.

Are you not reading the patch notes or something? Most of these are in the first post of this thread.

You made a difference between WOL and Survival. SR is definitely SV.

The only change we got was the CL buff, which we don't know if it will go live. That's it.

SL radius was already buffed quite some time ago. The dps boost of the initial hit is extremely minor, as every sim will tell you. For a specc that is 15% behind another ranged specc is a 0.2-0.3% buff really not worth mentioning. It never was supposed to be a buff anyways, as it was only to reduce the need of that glyph.

But so far, it's at least the best elemental got. A real buff. I'm excited for that non measurable buff!

[Kralljin]

Enhance is doing pretty solid, but holy crap at Elemental.

Anyone got any idea how to fix that?

I don't know what to say about this, but this mostly reflects just Simcraft.

Secondly, look how SV Hunters and dominate the overall score and are rather low on Encounters like Ta'yak and Feng, doesn't make that much sense.

Elemental is overall rather low because of Encounters like Elegon, Elemental is last spot there, even on Will of the Emperor you are ahead of a few specs.

If you ask me, this statistic seems slightly skewed.

And i see a serious gap between my performance and the numbers shown by Raidbots.

[SenSayNyu]

Two weeks ago I ranked 99 on Lei Shi Heroic (our first kill) as elemental and I was 9th on meters. Only one person above me ranked 152; it was enhancement shaman and she were 8th. The difference between 1st and 9th places were 24k DPS. Go figure.

[Deleted]

And i see a serious gap between my performance and the numbers shown by Raidbots.

That's what mean DPS generally does.

If you want to compare at your level of play, you need to adjust the percentiles and look at individual encounters. The default measure is only the 50th percentile.

Unless you assume that there are less skilled Elemental Shaman than there players of other specs (which has no factual nor logical base), the gap with the top5 (sometimes even top 10) performers on the higher percentile levels (where we can assume the players are properly specced, geared, reforged and aren't making a lot of mistakes) is quite high on the majority of fights. (Often in the range of >10%).

[Kralljin]

Unless you assume that there are less skilled Elemental Shaman than there players of other specs (which has no factual nor logical base), the gap with the top5 (sometimes even top 10) performers on the higher percentile levels (where we can assume the players are properly specced, geared, reforged and aren't making a lot of mistakes) is quite high on the majority of fights. (Often in the range of >10%).

Overall there aren't that many decent Elemental Shaman compared to other classes, in a 25man you mostly have 1, maybe 2.

Mages / Locks for example, there you got often at least 2 of them, mostly 3 of them.

In 10man it's very similiar, almost any decent Raid has a Mage and Warlock, Elemental however isn't seen that often, Balance and Sp are prefered as the "Hybrid Role".

Overall, Elemental get less Data from very good raiders compared to other classes, history of spec plays there a role as well, Elemental hasn't that much of a history as "Solid Progress Dps".

[Deleted]

Enhance is doing pretty solid, but holy crap at Elemental.

Anyone got any idea how to fix that?

DPS wise:
Buff shamanism, get rid of lava burst mastery proc and buff the spell itself (like it was back in the wotlk), eventually change ele mastery.

[Deleted]

Overall there aren't that many decent Elemental Shaman compared to other classes, in a 25man you mostly have 1, maybe 2.

Mages / Locks for example, there you got often at least 2 of them, mostly 3 of them.

In 10man it's very similiar, almost any decent Raid has a Mage and Warlock, Elemental however isn't seen that often, Balance and Sp are prefered as the "Hybrid Role".

Overall, Elemental get less Data from very good raiders compared to other classes, history of spec plays there a role as well, Elemental hasn't that much of a history as "Solid Progress Dps".

Elemental is the 6th spec in amount of WoL samples in 10N and 10H, 10th in 25N and 25H. Especially in 10man, the difference in sample size is too minor to consider Elemental struggles a form of sampling bias. There are numerous specs with a lower representation than ours, performing systematically better than ours. There is no factual or rational base to assume that the Elemental spec attracts less skilled individuals relative to other classes, or that skilled Elemental Shaman have abandoned their Shaman for a Mage or Warlock.
Unless proven otherwise, I'm still inclined to believe that between-group skill (and especially gear) is relatively equal at the higher percentiles, resulting in fundamental differences in design/scaling between classes, rather than DPS disparity reflecting differences between players.