Would MMOs have been better off if WoW was never made?

[Gothicshark]

but back then I was 14 years old I believe

Well here is why I am going to say your argument is invalid. For starters I'm 41, my friends are much older than you, and had full time jobs and careers in 2004/5. Also anyone who got exalted with any faction during vanilla was not casual in any way.

You seem to be trying so hard to bash wow

Not at all, I am stating simple truths. WOW is a behemoth of a game and it has forced the video game industry to change, some things for the better, but for the most part it has ruined the MMO genre forever. I highly doubt you understand what a MMO was about prior to WOW, and what the point of these game were. They where live 24 hour persistent world versions of P&P RPGs like AD&D. They where not based on the concept of "End Game", the point of the games were the game and the leveling experiences. WOW changed that model forever, WOW made the "End Game" the point of a MMO, which is why each expansion they lower the amount of time it takes to level through older content. As a test I level a monk 0-90 in 2 weeks time, and that is with a full time schedule. However the boys at Blizzard still make sure to include a ton of grind in everything we do. How many dailies are there now? The whole concept of dailies is a grind.

But lets look at EQ SWG COH

EQ and SWG are examples of the typical MMO experience from 1999-2005, if your goal was 'end game' you really missed the point of the game. They where about playing with friends and leveling together much like AD&D was about group play. They were not designed to play solo, and to play at max level.

COH which came out 7 months prior to WOW was really the first MMO to have good solo play, you could level 0-50 solo in it. Granted it was designed so it would take 2 years of casual solo play to get max level. However as a part of encouraging group play they had a system for teaming which allowed a high level player to sidekick a low level player, which effectively made them the same level. making it possible to play with anyone and everyone in the game, no matter the level. Also because of the design it was the least grindy MMO in early MMO history, one reason why it was nominated as Game of the year by every magazine and g4. It won a lot of honors, and stayed popular until about 3 years ago when 1/2 of it's players left for Champions Online.

[Sj]

Shifting to endgame focus was like skipping all the fun in college just to get your degree and start working 40+ hours a week.

[Deleted]

Well here is why I am going to say your argument is invalid. For starters I'm 41, my friends are much older than you, and had full time jobs and careers in 2004/5. Also anyone who got exalted with any faction during vanilla was not casual in any way.

Yes and when I was 14 years old I was being whipped by my parents, the PC had to be turned off at 9. I never came home from school and was picked up at 5 (which means I was home 15-30mins later). I had to do homework and of couse also had to eat, that left me with 1-2 hours of WoW each day. Fyi going to school and doing homework is like a fulltime job, maybe not as hard but definitely as time consuming where I come from.

You seem like an angry old man who wont pass on a single chance to bash WoW, you hate on the grind (ie things that take loads of time) and you hate on the leveling (ie things that take almost no time). How you can be hating on both I do not understand. Why you even play WoW I dont understand either, I mean you leveled a monk "for the lulz" maybe you should just stay away from WoW and anything related to it (this forum) if you hate it so much.

[Sj]

There's no room in this discussion for personal attacks. Stay on topic and keep it civil.

[AlamarAtMMOC]

Before WoW came along everyone was happy. We were all playing Ultima Online, DAoC, Everquest, FF XI, and possibly a few other games Im forgetting that I didnt try. We didnt compare games to each other and we were happy playing what we were playing. Then in 2004 WoW is released. Fast Forward to 2012. A game cant be released without it either being called a "WoW-killer" or "just another WoW clone" People want to compare new games that havent been out for even a month to a polished game thats been out for 8 years. No new game stands a chance when it comes out because all these idiots expect it to be just as refined and bug free as WoW is. Also you cant say a new game is better and more fun than WoW without some idiot fanboy going "If it was so much better why doesnt it have 10 million players?". Would the MMO genre have been better off if WoW never existed?

Not all of us are young, with WoW being our first game, but I'll go point for point...

Before WoW... No...

We were all playing... Yes, and City of Heroes (great game for it's time, even ignoring the amazing char models and generator)...

A game cant be released without... Just like every other popular game in any other genre...

Now new game... I agree; people are idiots with their expectations... However... Blizzard did a crapton of work on WoW before it came out... Other companies putting in as much time pre-release come out with a great product with a ton of content (or in short, it doesn't happen any more, outside of SWTOR, which just had a ton of talking).

Also you cant say... Does it make you an idiot fanboy of another game for disagreeing? WoW is the most successful (which some would equate to 'best') massive ever...

Would the MMO genre have been better off if WoW never existed? Of course not; competition is good... WoW was needed to show how bad EQ and some other games were... People equate WoW's timing (and luck) to it's success, and those are always factors, but EQ had a hell of a lot more success from those same factors : )

-Alamar

[barrsftw]

Before WoW came along everyone was happy. We were all playing Ultima Online, DAoC, Everquest, FF XI, and possibly a few other games Im forgetting that I didnt try. We didnt compare games to each other and we were happy playing what we were playing. Then in 2004 WoW is released. Fast Forward to 2012. A game cant be released without it either being called a "WoW-killer" or "just another WoW clone" People want to compare new games that havent been out for even a month to a polished game thats been out for 8 years. No new game stands a chance when it comes out because all these idiots expect it to be just as refined and bug free as WoW is. Also you cant say a new game is better and more fun than WoW without some idiot fanboy going "If it was so much better why doesnt it have 10 million players?". Would the MMO genre have been better off if WoW never existed?

Everyone was happy because everyone was 12 years old. People overlook this fact. When WoW first came out the average player age was like 13-17 and currently its like 17-24. I forget where I read this but someone wrote a thesis or something on it.

[Mormolyce]

Before WoW came along everyone was happy. We were all playing Ultima Online, DAoC, Everquest, FF XI, and possibly a few other games Im forgetting that I didnt try.

Bet the vast majority of current MMO players never played those games.

Then in 2004 WoW is released. Fast Forward to 2012. A game cant be released without it either being called a "WoW-killer" or "just another WoW clone" People want to compare new games that havent been out for even a month to a polished game thats been out for 8 years. No new game stands a chance when it comes out because all these idiots expect it to be just as refined and bug free as WoW is. Also you cant say a new game is better and more fun than WoW without some idiot fanboy going "If it was so much better why doesnt it have 10 million players?". Would the MMO genre have been better off if WoW never existed?

Everything you said in this paragraph is a consequence of WoW's runaway success. How does an 8 year old game dominate an entire genre? Because nobody has ever made anything better. Or rather, better enough.

Well I say it's 8 years old but Blizzard keeps adding new things, updating and revising it so it's more like a living game development.

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 01:24 AM ----------

Not at all, I am stating simple truths. WOW is a behemoth of a game and it has forced the video game industry to change, some things for the better, but for the most part it has ruined the MMO genre forever. I highly doubt you understand what a MMO was about prior to WOW, and what the point of these game were. They where live 24 hour persistent world versions of P&P RPGs like AD&D. They where not based on the concept of "End Game", the point of the games were the game and the leveling experiences. WOW changed that model forever, WOW made the "End Game" the point of a MMO, which is why each expansion they lower the amount of time it takes to level through older content. As a test I level a monk 0-90 in 2 weeks time, and that is with a full time schedule. However the boys at Blizzard still make sure to include a ton of grind in everything we do. How many dailies are there now? The whole concept of dailies is a grind.

Please. If WoW "ruined" it then people would flock to any MMO that went back to your antiquated leveling paradigm wouldn't they? So the MMO market would be totally up for grabs and WoW would be in a delicate position, easily toppled by any company that gives players what they really want. That is to say, what YOU think they really want. Which evidently they don't.

The intense focus on endgame is something that happened TO WoW, not because of it. That is a manifestation of the desires of the players, and it's something that completely surprised early WoW devs. They were in the EQ/etc mindset just like you say, where endgame raiding and so on was content designed for a very small proportion of the playerbase and most people just liked leveling. But as time went on more and more people were speed leveling and demanding to get access to endgame content - EVERYONE wanted to be a raider. That's why Blizzard made the model more and more accessible from Vanilla to BC, to Wrath, finally to LFR in Cataclysm - they were responding to the desires of their market. The de-emphasis of leveling content was part of the same phenomenon, everyone viewed questing and leveling as a chore and so they slowly cut back on the time and difficulty involved. Ditto rep grinds - look at the insane rep grinds in Vanilla, and now compare the forums since they stopped letting you completely bypass rep grinding via tabards. Outrage! Shock! Horror! I can't put on an ugly tabard and get Exalted in an afternoon! Blizzard is actually taking flak for trying to bring rep back to a more oldschool model (though it's still got nothing on Vanilla reps)...

If people hated the change from the old model MMO to the new one why did they drive it? And why do they continue to remain loyal to the game? And why hasn't someone tried to appeal to them? WoW doesn't have any competitors looking for a way to appeal to their sub base? Of course it does, and many of them try to emulate popular features WoW pioneered because people LIKE them and in fact, EXPECT them.

The game market is a free capitalist market. Nobody can "ruin" it except the customers.

[Sj]

Everything you said in this paragraph is a consequence of WoW's runaway success. How does an 8 year old game dominate an entire genre? Because nobody has ever made anything better. Or rather, better enough.

Well I say it's 8 years old but Blizzard keeps adding new things, updating and revising it so it's more like a living game development.

An 8-year old game has 8 years of content, bug fixes, and overall development, while new games don't. A big thing keeping people playing MMO players playing is time invested in the games they play. Do you think people still play those older pre-WoW MMOs because they're better than WoW? Nope.

[Deleted]

An 8-year old game has 8 years of content, bug fixes, and overall development, while new games don't. A big thing keeping people playing MMO players playing is time invested in the games they play. Do you think people still play those older pre-WoW MMOs because they're better than WoW? Nope.

8 years of investment yes, 8 years of bug fixes and content nope. With every new content patch comes more bugs, the WoW pet battles probably increased the amount of bugs in the game by 30% as it is so filled with bugs you wont even believe it. While WoW does in theory have 8 years of content you are forgetting that 90% of it are outdated and used by a very small percentage of the WoW players. How many people do you think still raids MC at lvl 60? I am willing to bet its less than 1000 or less than 1/10,000th of the entire playerbase. If we ignore the fact that they recently added raid pets no one would give a shit if they removed MC entirely tomorrow.

WoW is not 8 years old but the engine is. While the engine still has improved the technology is still very limiting as an 8 year old engine should be. If WoW had an up to date engine we would have much better quests than WoW does today, we would have much better raid encounters and we would have much better graphics that require no better hardware.

[Remilia]

If people hated the change from the old model MMO to the new one why did they drive it? And why do they continue to remain loyal to the game? And why hasn't someone tried to appeal to them? WoW doesn't have any competitors looking for a way to appeal to their sub base? Of course it does, and many of them try to emulate popular features WoW pioneered because people LIKE them and in fact, EXPECT them.

The game market is a free capitalist market. Nobody can "ruin" it except the customers.

There are companies that do...?

Part of an MMO is the social aspect. With a lot of people that play the game with friends a such, leaving a game for another hurts the social aspect with their already known connection. I'm not really afraid of doing it, others however are. Not to mention there's a lot of time investments
Then there's part of change. People dislike change.
People don't want change as it becomes different to what they're used to, which just basically makes it hard for some to adapt. Anyone mention anything about responsiveness I'm going to bite them.

I have my personal preference of certain games.
Skill > Gear is one thing I like. However the skill I look for generally deters many people. No devs are going to make a game because the window is too small for a return. Also why if anyone wants me to make a design for any boss they'd rage at me. Reminds me... I should play with EQ2's dungeon maker... GRIEF TOWN.
I love control over luck. Gear based especially for mechanics like tanking. Luck... is dumb. There's no skill, just gear.
This however is just my own preference.

If the dev's desire is to make money. Cater to the masses. The masses however are determined by the current market. WoW made the current market. WoW did a lot to affect the MMO community. The players are part to blame, but without the game the players wouldn't have known any different.
The community in my opinion is a giant cess pool with a few exceptions.

WoW became jack of all master of none in my eyes.

[Lilly32]

And as I recall, WoW was referred to as a DAOC and/or EQ clone when it came out.

Because other than WoW adding quests to make it less grindy than previous games it pretty much was. Hell the main Devs that created WoW were all old EQ raiders.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 09:48 PM ----------

No other game comes out with content and updates as frequently as WoW.

What world do you live in? Everquest just released its 19th expansion and is only 13 years old. Thats better than an expansion per year. Also Rift pumps out very good content at a decent rate as well. Also both games dont release new content that makes older content obsolete like WoW does so its raids appeal to more people. You have casual people raiding stuff from 2-3 prior expansions in EQ and then the uber guilds doing cutting edge stuff from the latest expansion. In WoW everyone just raids the same tier. There is no separation of hardcore and casuals. And dont start with Hardmodes cause by the end they are nerfed so far down that trade chat PuGs are facerolling them.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 09:50 PM ----------

Everyone was happy because everyone was 12 years old. People overlook this fact. When WoW first came out the average player age was like 13-17 and currently its like 17-24. I forget where I read this but someone wrote a thesis or something on it.

I was 18 when I began playing UO in 1997 and 25 when WoW came out where do you get 12 from? Maybe thats why WoW's community has always been considered one of the worst. Because most of us playing the older MMOs were...older.

[Hraklea]

How does an 8 year old game dominate an entire genre? Because nobody has ever made anything better.

The problem is that you're assuming that what is better for most people is actually better. People listen to Rebecca Black and Justin Bieber rather than Mozart. People read Stephanie Meyer rather than William Shakespeare. I can keep going.

I really don't want to sound elitist (I guess it is impossible now...), but WoW being successful and WoW being good are completely different things.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Blame the people, not WoW. If WoW had never came out, there would be another game in its place being compared and contrasted to, and by.

[Gothicshark]

The game market is a free capitalist market. Nobody can "ruin" it except the customers.

Well thanks for putting in the words that prove how WOW destroyed the MMO industry. the total market for the MMO industry is around 2-3 million people, WOW still has 8-10 million people.

The group of people who would normally make up the MMO market look for something different than the 8-10 million people that WOW brought in to the game. As I said earlier the MMO market was aimed for the old time AD&D players. WOW brought a different type of person, I would have to say most WOW players are not Nerds. Most would never play D&D. Where most people who use to play MMOs played some form of pen and paper role playing game.


The the person who felt to attack me personally, I don't hate you. But you do not have the past experiences to make a valid argument of events prior to WOWs release. I also don't hate WOW, I play it almost daily, I raid once in a while, although most of MOP bored already, so I doubt I'm going to actually try to do any raiding this expansion . You see the true nerd, wants a game which can always be fun, and never feels like work. WOW has made MMOs feel like a job, and not an escape from boring jobs coding data bases. SO you can get upset that I called you a kid, and you might be angry that I do not feel the influance of WOW is overall beneficial to gaming in general. The simple truth is If WOW was good for MMOs there would be other MMOs with equal or near equal subscriptions.

So either no one can make a good MMO or the people playing WOW are not MMO gamers.

Take your pick because there can only be one true answer.

Because I have played almost 20 years of MMOs, and nearly 30 years of Multi-player Online RPGs. (yes I did Muds on BBS). I can assure you that there are better games than WOW.

[Hraklea]

I would love if you could a write a detailed list of those changes/ideas either here, in other thread or in a pm.

As I said, I think that the big problem of current MMOs is that they reward time, not skill. This is the first thing to solve. The second problem, in my opinion, is the amount of useless things that creates a "living world", but most people stop paying attention after the first weeks playing. This is how I would make the game:

There would not be a continuous world, but episodes, similar to how Asura's Wrath is. For instance, you create a character, you enter a server that is just the small city where you start, and there will be a few tasks to introduce you to the mechanics of the game, with a boss in the end to test you if you understood. Once you finished, you would be able to join a few episodes (like araid with quests inside it). Once you finished all of the them, you'd get more skills and a new tutorial to learn them. There would be cinematics before and after each episode to introduce you and tell you how they end.

The structure would be something like:
Tutorial -> Tier 1 Episodes -> Tutorial -> Tier 2 Episodes -> Tutorial -> Tier 3 Episodes... every tier would give you more abilities/talents/etc.

Bosses would always drop currencies rather than items, so you can buy what you want rather than repeat the same boss until you get lucky. For instance, you kill a dragon, it drops the "dragon teeth", and there's a vendor that sells you items for "1 dragon teeth". If you want a second "dragon teeth", you would need to kill the boss in some sort of "hard mode" (there would be 3~5 hard modes per boss), so there would not be possible to farm things, you'd always need to defeat a new challenge to get a new item.

As you can see, I would remove a lot of things like professions (tailoring, blacksmithing, etc.), world travel (there's no world...), mounts, world events, daily quests... these are all part of what I called "WoW mentality", tricks to create the illusion that playing 8 hours per day is worth people's time.

Keep in mind that english is not my native language, it is late (here where I am), and writing this sort of things is way harder than talking, so I know there are things missing and it might be confusing. Feel free to ask anything.

[Sj]

So either no one can make a good MMO or the people playing WOW are not MMO gamers.

Or WoW players refuse to try anything else.

[Varabently]

You forgot SWG! But honestly this kind of discussion is silly to consider.

It's logical that the best MMO would attract the most/best players, so one big one would exist. WoW just happened to create a tipping point with MMO players and funneled a ton of casuals into the genre.

Really WoW is the reason MMOs have spawned. It's seen as a huge market now. If WoW hadn't happened, the others you mentioned may have died a slow painful death until a worthy MMO surfaced. Something like SWTOR would have thrived if WOW hadn't existed, but it's a catch 22. A lot of games borrowed ideas from WoW (as all games do), so perhaps they would have been completely different.

I do miss the sandbox games like UO and SWG.

[Gothicshark]

Or WoW players refuse to try anything else.

That would be " the people playing WOW are not MMO gamers."

[kail]

That would be " the people playing WOW are not MMO gamers."

What exactly would you classify them as?

[Gothicshark]

What exactly would you classify them as?

WOW players mostly now, but they are not the people who play MMOs, they only play WOW.