Ghostcrawler tweet about 25 man, let the speculation begin!

[Deleted]

25 mans already have plenty of incentives.

Check my sig for more info.

Maybe they are increasing the difficulty of 25m to bring it more in line with 10m? That might make more raiders actually take notice of what the 25m are doing. As it is now there is such lower executional difficultly for 25m that a lot of people just don't take them seriously.

Your sig is taken out of context and it is LFR being mentioned in it in a thread where people asked why there is no 10 man LFR available. That does in no way apply to proper 25 man raiding. There is more room for people to be carried in a normal 25 man but if you enter heroic modes that is far from the truth.

[Azrile]

25s are dying because 25s raiders are not rewarded enough for doing harder content. why do a hard thing for the same reward as an easy thing?

10s have a much larger margin for error, especially in fights with spacial requirements. maybe if they redesigned the encounter maps so 10 mans deal with the same space issues that 25s content deals with will the two formats be balanced.

25s should be able to completely cap valor from raids and 10 mans not be able too, or 25s should reward elder charms, or have higher ilevel loot. something.

25mans are ONLY harder on the people organizing them. Joe-blow dps has slightly less responsibility in a 25m than a 10m.

I really think any bonus they get will be towards the leadership or conveniences.. it will not be ilvl or gear related. Maybe 25M raids get mass summoning back, or maybe cauldren recipes etc.

[Tiberria]

Here you go again with your out of context sig that was talking about 25 man LFR, why don't you add that as well? In that same blue post it was stated that they feel 25 man is more complex. But you won't add that bit would you and would rather stir things up.

Try to carry one single person in 25 man raid on really hard progress boss. You can't carry anyone and you need 25 people organized and able to execute things perfectly. Same goes for 10 man but logistic is no where near the same.

I agree with this. People that are saying you don't have personal responsibility in 25 mans and can carry people, and several people can die without it being a wipe, are probably referring to farm content and normal modes. On most of the really difficult progression bosses, you need all 25 people to be able to kill the boss, and one person being dead and not able to be rezzed is usually a wipe. On some fights, you are tight enough on the enrage timer that even if you have a battle rez available, it's still a wipe because of the cost of the battle rez (cast time on the rez, cast time for everyone that has to rebuff the person, lost food buff, etc).

If anything, 25 man is more difficult in that regard, because there are 2.5 times as many people who can disconnect, lag, or just screw up.

[Azrile]

I agree with this. People that are saying you don't have personal responsibility in 25 mans and can carry people, and several people can die without it being a wipe, are probably referring to farm content and normal modes. On most of the really difficult progression bosses, you need all 25 people to be able to kill the boss, and one person being dead and not able to be rezzed is usually a wipe. On some fights, you are tight enough on the enrage timer that even if you have a battle rez available, it's still a wipe because of the cost of the battle rez (cast time on the rez, cast time for everyone that has to rebuff the person, lost food buff, etc).

If anything, 25 man is more difficult in that regard, because there are 2.5 times as many people who can disconnect, lag, or just screw up.

That is for the raid overall.

If a healer DCs in 10 mans, that is 50% of your healers. Unrecoverable
If a healer DCs in 25 mans, that is 16% of your healers.

DPS check is 50k
if a DPS is doing 25k in 10 mans, that puts you 8.5% behind the curve. The other DPS have to all do 55k DPS to cover for him.
if a DPS is doing 25k in 25 mans, that puts you 3% behind the curve. The other DPS have to all do 52k DPS to cover for him

personal responsiblity in a 10M is slightly higher than a 25M. Leadership requirements in a 25M are drastically higher than a 10M. that is why I believe all the bonus that GC hinted at will go towards the leaders or for convenience things.

[Marooned]

If a healer DCs in 10 mans, that is 50% of your healers. Unrecoverable
If a healer DCs in 25 mans, that is 16% of your healers.

This is not the case, 5 healers are needed in 25 man since normally (when you have not overgeared the content) there is tight responsibility for 5 healers. 1 Healer DCs there is a high chance 1 tank or a group of ppl die in 25 man which leads to a wipe. I hope you get it. That 1/5 healing is very important on 25 raid since each healer or two as pair are assigned to heal something that lacking them will wipe the raid. Hmm how to explain think in 10 man there are 2 spots and 2 healer need to heal them while in 25 man there are 5 targets that need to be healed. I hope I could explain why you are wrong.

Edit: I remember a period when I had bad connection, many many times when my network lagged for like 3 4 secs, my assigned tanks died in 25man raiding and caused instant wipe and rage in raid ; )

[Deleted]

Really looking forward to see 25 shine again.

[Radalek]

That is for the raid overall.

If a healer DCs in 10 mans, that is 50% of your healers. Unrecoverable
If a healer DCs in 25 mans, that is 16% of your healers.

DPS check is 50k
if a DPS is doing 25k in 10 mans, that puts you 8.5% behind the curve. The other DPS have to all do 55k DPS to cover for him.
if a DPS is doing 25k in 25 mans, that puts you 3% behind the curve. The other DPS have to all do 52k DPS to cover for him

personal responsiblity in a 10M is slightly higher than a 25M. Leadership requirements in a 25M are drastically higher than a 10M. that is why I believe all the bonus that GC hinted at will go towards the leaders or for convenience things.

Problem with your math is the following.
You went with 2 healing and 6 healing 25 man, fair number would be 5 healers in 25 so percentage is a bit higher. And each healer covers 5 people...guess what same as in 10 man, same responsibility. And guess what again, you have 2.5 more chances someone will DC in 25 man so...it evens out. You can't use that as an argument. You could even argue that healers dcing hurt 25 man more due to that. On top of that DPS check is always fairly higher in 25 man, on bleeding edge progress margin gets even higher.

[Shaley]

This is not the case, 5 healers are needed in 25 man since normally (when you have not overgeared the content) there is tight responsibility for 5 healers. 1 Healer DCs there is a high chance 1 tank or a group of ppl die in 25 man which leads to a wipe. I hope you get it. That 1/5 healing is very important on 25 raid since each healer or two as pair are assigned to heal something that lacking them will wipe the raid. Hmm how to explain think in 10 man there are 2 spots and 2 healer need to heal them while in 25 man there are 5 targets that need to be healed. I hope I could explain why you are wrong.

Both formats utilize a 1:5 ratio. 2 healers for 10 players, or 5 healers for 25 people.

Again, both formats utilize 20% of their comp being HPS classes.

Except in one format, a loss of one healer is 50%, and one is 20%. What is hard to understand about it? In both 10 and 25, you can make the argument that they are healing 5 people each, but if a healer d/c's in a 25 man it's a lot easier for the other 4 healers to each pick up 1 extra assignment, versus the other healer on 10 man picking up all 9 assignments.

[Atrea]

I bet the 'controversial decision' they are making, is just to remove 25 man raids altogether.

[KCguy]

I don't know if the ilvl will be raised as I think the amount of people that would complain would be insane. But it very well could happen. I'm thinking though it's more along the lines of a lot more drops or some some new kind of element or buff or something.

[Deleted]

Both formats utilize a 1:5 ratio. 2 healers for 10 players, or 5 healers for 25 people.

Again, both formats utilize 20% of their comp being HPS classes.

Except in one format, a loss of one healer is 50%, and one is 20%. What is hard to understand about it? In both 10 and 25, you can make the argument that they are healing 5 people each, but if a healer d/c's in a 25 man it's a lot easier for the other 4 healers to each pick up 1 extra assignment, versus the other healer on 10 man picking up all 9 assignments.

Your arguement is correct for an easy fight but on a hard fight such as garalon heroic, if one of your healers dc you fucking wipe and yea in most cases its not a 1:5 ratio. The vast majority of 10 man guilds uses 2 healers on garalon while the vast majority uses 6 healers in 25 man (my guild being the exception with using 5 healers).

[Radalek]

Your arguement is correct for an easy fight but on a hard fight such as garalon heroic, if one of your healers dc you fucking wipe and yea in most cases its not a 1:5 ratio. The vast majority of 10 man guilds uses 2 healers on garalon while the vast majority uses 6 healers in 25 man (my guild being the exception with using 5 healers).

Or even 7, we killed it with 7 healers. Far from 1:5 ratio.

[katta]

That is for the raid overall.

If a healer DCs in 10 mans, that is 50% of your healers. Unrecoverable
If a healer DCs in 25 mans, that is 16% of your healers.

DPS check is 50k
if a DPS is doing 25k in 10 mans, that puts you 8.5% behind the curve. The other DPS have to all do 55k DPS to cover for him.
if a DPS is doing 25k in 25 mans, that puts you 3% behind the curve. The other DPS have to all do 52k DPS to cover for him

personal responsiblity in a 10M is slightly higher than a 25M. Leadership requirements in a 25M are drastically higher than a 10M. that is why I believe all the bonus that GC hinted at will go towards the leaders or for convenience things.

You act as if the balance between 10 and 25 is just scaled. Sorry but you need more than 2.5x more dps from each player in a 25 man in a 10 man.

For example if each of your DPS in a 10 man needs to do 60k to kill a boss then in 25 man they will need to do about 75-80k to kill the boss for the most part.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

The only (general) mechanic which is harder on 25 man is spreading out to not chain something - which is a trivial mechanic for "good" raiders who are constantly aware of their surroundings and not tunneling like a retard. The space issue is only an issue for bad 25 mans.

Let's not forget about the higher personal Dps required by each player? (a few more Stormlashes/Banners does not make up for it, and all buffs have been covered by any competent 10man raid since Cata launch) Gara'Jal HC being the 1 single exception.

The only thing "easier" in 25mans is that you have more Healing CDs.

On topic: 10 AND 25mans removed. Welcome the new 17mans (random number between 15 and 20).... Do want.

[Kralljin]

The only thing "easier" in 25mans is that you have more Healing CDs.

Which is quite important because it allows you to skip some crucial Encounter Mechanics, Stacks on Elegon P3 or you don't have to toss the Orb on Sha of Fear on debuffed people.

[anaxie]

All that means is that if the upgraded item idea is how they're thinking about making 25s attractive, it's not happening in 5.2. Which seemed likely anyway, as the PTR is already up and this mystery idea hasn't even been announced yet.

Well atleast this means T14H gear is bis until T15H gear. That is niceish.

[Deleted]

You act as if the balance between 10 and 25 is just scaled. Sorry but you need more than 2.5x more dps from each player in a 25 man in a 10 man.

For example if each of your DPS in a 10 man needs to do 60k to kill a boss then in 25 man they will need to do about 75-80k to kill the boss for the most part.

Let's not forget about the higher personal Dps required by each player? (a few more Stormlashes/Banners does not make up for it, and all buffs have been covered by any competent 10man raid since Cata launch) Gara'Jal HC being the 1 single exception.

The only thing "easier" in 25mans is that you have more Healing CDs.

On topic: 10 AND 25mans removed. Welcome the new 17mans (random number between 15 and 20).... Do want.

Let us forget how the number of tanks (not 5 on on 25, only 2, and with better dps due to more vengeance), healers (not always 5, 8 or certainly not 10), external CDs, number of people taking care of mechanics and losing dps, work per fight.

Why people won't accept that T11, T12 were imbalanced for 10 and 25, but T13, T14 and hopefully onwards, Blizzard have done a great work of balancing encounters (although the balance most of the time come of having the same number of fights slightly easier for each of the sizes)... Sincerely, don't you think that Blizzard have pay a bit more of thinking, being their job at all that, and have missed those things?

[Tiberria]

Well atleast this means T14H gear is bis until T15H gear. That is niceish.

Not necessarily. It depends on what they set the T15 ilevel to. If it follows the same inflation trends as Cata, T15 normal mode loot would be ilevel 516 and T15H loot would be ilvl 529. However, will the up that do 524/537 to account for the existence of gear upgrades? It's not clear yet. Not only that, unless 5.2 isn't out until like June, you won't likely have more than half of your items upgraded by the time it hits.

Also, people are way too quick in dismissing this announcement as proof that they won't use the 1/2 or 2/2 upgraded item thing as a 25 man incentive. Just because they won't make it possible to upgrade T15 gear right away doesn't prevent them from having 25 mans drop pre-upgraded gear if they wanted to.

And, anyone that thinks they would entertain completely removing a raid size in the middle of an expansion is insane. I was somewhat surprised they didn't streamline everything to a single 10 or 15 man raid size for MoP. However, they would have to wait for the start of the next expansion to entertain doing something like that now.

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 08:50 PM ----------

Let us forget how the number of tanks (not 5 on on 25, only 2, and with better dps due to more vengeance), healers (not always 5, 8 or certainly not 10), external CDs, number of people taking care of mechanics work per fight.

Why people won't accept that T11, T12 were imbalanced for 10 and 25, but T13, T14 and hopefully onwards, Blizzard have done a great work of balancing encounters (although the balance most of the time of having the same number of fights slightly easier for each of the sizes)...

I haven't done T14 hard modes, but in T13, they weren't even remotely balanced. The DPS requirement on difficult DPS checks like Ultraxion (pre-nerfs) and Spine tendons wasn't even close. These checks were a joke in 10 man.

[Kunta]

What if it's something as simple as having the Sinestra type Heroic mode boss of this tier, only accessible in 25m?? The iLvl drops would be equal to the rest of the heroic iLvl's as not to make a disparity.

Being a 10m raider i would have no problem with this. Also i would not have a problem with going back to the BC style of raiding. Having separate player requirements for different raids. Trust me, if they did that, 10 man guilds would find a way to go 25's, either by recruiting or merging. I LOVE raiding 25 mans, but i also love raid leading and being GM, I have been raiding 10's for the past 3 tiers because of logistical nightmares. People say they want to raid 25's but they dont want to put in the time and effort to sustain a 25-30 player roster. If they moved to one raid size, whether it's 25-20-15-10 people would conform to what they had to in order to raid.

I personally like the BC style because it makes tuning so much easier, and it stops all the BS QQ about 10 vs 25's because they would have nothing to compare it to.

[Tiberria]

What if it's something as simple as having the Sinestra type Heroic mode boss of this tier, only accessible in 25m?? The iLvl drops would be equal to the rest of the heroic iLvl's as not to make a disparity.

Being a 10m raider i would have no problem with this. Also i would not have a problem with going back to the BC style of raiding. Having separate player requirements for different raids. Trust me, if they did that, 10 man guilds would find a way to go 25's, either by recruiting or merging. I LOVE raiding 25 mans, but i also love raid leading and being GM, I have been raiding 10's for the past 3 tiers because of logistical nightmares. People say they want to raid 25's but they dont want to put in the time and effort to sustain a 25-30 player roster. If they moved to one raid size, whether it's 25-20-15-10 people would conform to what they had to in order to raid.

I personally like the BC style because it makes tuning so much easier, and it stops all the BS QQ about 10 vs 25's because they would have nothing to compare it to.

The outrage that would ensue from gating an entire boss so that 10 man raiders could never see it would be far greater than any of the gear upgrade suggestions.