Patriotism and the Nation-State

[Deleted]

My patriotism is kind of a lifestyle though. My patriotism inspired me to study space technology. Yes, a bit weird, but yeah. I think patriotism is harmless as long as you don't harm other people, but then it's just turned into nationalism anyway.

Whatever floats your boat, as long as you don't treat people that weren't born in your country as if they are genetically misfortunate.

[Deleted]

Whatever floats your boat, as long as you don't treat people that weren't born in your country as if they are genetically misfortunate.

It's a bit ironic, I'm probably the most patriotic person I know, yet my two best mates is an Indian and a muslim, respectively.

[Killingifrit]

"DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe" and the establishment of supranational institutions isn't enough of a clue?

every single sentence is related to trade and economics past that, so no. so where does this federal state in the treaty come from?

---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 12:03 AM ----------

My patriotism is kind of a lifestyle though. My patriotism inspired me to study space technology. Yes, a bit weird, but yeah. I think patriotism is harmless as long as you don't harm other people, but then it's just turned into nationalism anyway.

You believe multiculturalism is spread by a cult, and you're dead determined that the higher crime rate among immigrants is due to their culture. But sure, you love everybody just like every other closet racist. But you know this argument is just going to end up with you sulking about how everyone else is so manipulated by the system and nobody will care anyway, so let's end it here.

it is a cult, and fits the definiyion of the word very wwell.

i love everybody(except violent and rude people, and they can be found in all groups), inluding racists. i am a very tolerant person. the same cannot be said of you. i have facts and statistics to support my opinion. you, hwever, dont.

[Deleted]

every single sentence is related to trade and economics past that, so no. so where does this federal state in the treaty come from?

Not sure where you are getting that the EU is a federal state, at this point it could be considered a loose confederation at best. Every thing in the treaty points to closer economic and political integration, that's my point.

[Deleted]

[/COLOR]
it is a cult, and fits the definiyion of the word very wwell.

i love everybody(except violent and rude people, and they can be found in all groups), inluding racists.

Yeah, those peaceful, kind racists need to be shown some love. However violent, rude racists deserve hate. Did I get that right?

[Catta]

where is the option " I'm European and I support both my country and the EU." ?

biased poll?

Ofc its biased...

It also tries to equate the US with the EU and thereby states with nations. And then ask are you happy being American and do you support your own damn country and then theres are you happy being from your country - and do you support the thing that tries to destroy it bit by bit :P

[Killingifrit]

Not sure where you are getting that the EU is a federal state, at this point it could be considered a loose confederation at best. Every thing in the treaty points to closer economic and political integration, that's my point.

and my point was nobody signed up for the current version of EU. treat of lisbon comes to mind. people were not given a referendum, except the dutch and frenchmen and they said no. im not gonna bother checking the other treaties but i bet there were no referendums for turning the steel union to the economic community or the community to the union. not to mention the union is full of unelected kretis and pletis.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Ofc its biased...

It also tries to equate the US with the EU and thereby states with nations. And then ask are you happy being American and do you support your own damn country and then theres are you happy being from your country - and do you support the thing that tries to destroy it bit by bit :P

It's Swazi Spring and his weekly "Are you a dirty socialist communist freedom hating liberal or are you a loyal good and true conservative" post. His posts usually get locked within the first 20 pages and then he spends the next few days making comments in other threads about how the mods are bias liberals.

[Cybran]

You believe multiculturalism is spread by a cult, and you're dead determined that the higher crime rate among immigrants is due to their culture. But sure, you love everybody just like every other closet racist. But you know this argument is just going to end up with you sulking about how everyone else is so manipulated by the system and nobody will care anyway, so let's end it here.

Those are some big and gross assumptions.

[Deleted]

Those are some big and gross assumptions.

It's from another topic with an argument spanning several pages that went absolutely nowhere.

[Killingifrit]

Those are some big and gross assumptions.

interesting. how and why?

[Jackmoves]

The biggest problem isn't big government it's bad budgeting. You can be fiscally responsible with a big government(and social democratic/liberal one as well, crazy I know), we've had an unbalanced budget amendment here since 2000, one rule is that we need to have a 1% surplus of the GDP over a business cycle, it allows for flexibility but still put pressure on the government to keep books in order long-term, I guess the closest comparison to how we do it is Chile, our system allows for more flexibility though.

The biggest problem for my country is not how we run things, but rather the fact that even if you combine the scandinavian countries(they've done fairly well during the crisis as well and they are our biggest trading partners) markets our combined internal market is too small to be self sustainable to any decent degree, we depend on the US and the other EU nations to keep their heads above water and keep trade flowing.

Anyways it works well for us as one can see in the link below, we manage to have budget surpluses most years, it prevents the government from racking up debt and running the state finances into the gutter. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/swed...ernment-budget


And on the topic of budgets, thats the problem wth the US state finances imo, the political system and climate in the US doesn't allow for proper long-term planing, it goes for both Dems and GOP, there isn't a responsible businessman that doesn't combine year-to-year budgeting with long-term planing, the US needs budget reforms, but for that to happen the dems and GOP need to be able to agree on more then that the colour of blue is... blue(if they can even do that).


OT I support both the EU and Sweden.

[Cybran]

interesting. how and why?

I thought he was calling you a closet racist without context. Seems he got context from other threads.

P.S. I don't like fascist that hide their agenda under liberalism/NPOs either.

[Deleted]

It's Swazi Spring and his weekly "Are you a dirty socialist communist freedom hating liberal or are you a loyal good and true conservative" post. His posts usually get locked within the first 20 pages and then he spends the next few days making comments in other threads about how the mods are bias liberals.

After I read the title I already predicted the word "liberal" in the first comment. And I'm not even from the USA.


This is that kind of guy that if you happen to disagree with something he says, you are automatically a liberal and follow the ideas of Karl Marx.

[Deleted]

and my point was nobody signed up for the current version of EU. treat of lisbon comes to mind. people were not given a referendum, except the dutch and frenchmen and they said no. im not gonna bother checking the other treaties but i bet there were no referendums for turning the steel union to the economic community or the community to the union.

That was not the treaty of lisbon, that was the constitution also you left out that Spain and Luxembourg got a referendum as well and they said yes. You don't need a referendum for a treaty.

The older versions were the foundation for the modern day union and it pressed forward thanks to the political will of the elected representatives of the people.

not to mention the union is full of unelected kretis and pletis

Let's see, we have a directly elected parliament, a council consisting of the elected heads of state and government of the member states, a council consisting of the ministers of the member states, a comission president appointed by the european council and then elected by the also elected parliament. Who's unelected?

[StRaIgHtJaCkEt]

I support America because we are a right-wing country. America is not just a geographical landmass or a cultural group, America is an idea. Freedom, republican government, an armed populace and constitutionalism are at the forefront of this idea. America is the idea that everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed and fulfill the American Dream. I support America because I believe in this idea and I'm willing to fight for it if I must. Not every country in the world holds this is why I support the nation-state.

To me this sounds like fascism, a specific form of nationalism. That was created on some idealistic notion of what the historical founding fathers of the united states intended for the government and future generations of people born in the geographical region known as the United States. The problem with this ideal is that we live in a different world, at a different time. The people of the U.S.A do not know what it's like to live back then. The people of the U.S.A do not have personal, or intimate knowledge of what the founding fathers were like. All they have are books that supposedly tell them what the founding fathers had in mind.

To look back on the history of the U.S.A, and come up with some grand idea of what it means to be an American, and to live by that idea, is fantasy. It's rigid, impractical, and serves no good purpose for anyone. It' starts to take on the shape of dogma, placing the founders, and other historical figures as the mythical, demigods, or prophets. But our founders are no demigods, they are not prophets. They are ordinary men, and they know no better than anyone what is good for right now than the people of right now.

It so happens, I was born in a geographical region known as the United States of America, by circumstances outside of my control, wishes, or desires, that does not mean, I believe in any specific American 'ideology'. Nor, would I want to be apart of any such thing. It makes no good sense to me to live by what the founding fathers had in mind, considering, it we'll past their time.

At the end of the day, nationalists, patriots, are nothing more than football hooligans who support the local team.

[Dillon]

As you may have noticed, many liberals have been attacking the idea of patriotism. They argue that there is no logical reason to support the nation-state and that patriotism is "evil," because it promotes the idea that America is "better" than other countries. I'd like to take a few moments to express my views on the subject and then allow everyone here to voice their opinion as well.

I support America because we are a right-wing country. America is not just a geographical landmass or a cultural group, America is an idea. Freedom, republican government, an armed populace and constitutionalism are at the forefront of this idea. America is the idea that everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed and fulfill the American Dream. I support America because I believe in this idea and I'm willing to fight for it if I must. Not every country in the world holds this is why I support the nation-state.

What do you think, is patriotism "evil" and/or "illogical?" And do you believe there is any reason to support the nation-state system?

I am not a liberal at all, and I HATE this post-9/11 patriotism.

But I love my country. As a matter of fact, I love my country so much that I openly criticize it and seek to change it.

[Cybran]

I am not a liberal at all, and I HATE But I love my country. As a matter of fact, I love my country so much that I openly criticize it and seek to change it.

Why would you want to change something you love? Are you a woman? (hue hue hue)

[Deleted]

Where's my "I love my country and the EU" option ?

And to the UK europhobes : You could be an equal to Germany and France on the EU stage. You chose not to. Your loss. You could be a dominant power within a major power, or a junior partner of the US. Is the choice that hard to make ?
Not that I don't love the english, I still consider them the closest country to France culturally.

[Gothicshark]

As you may have noticed, many liberals have been attacking the idea of patriotism.

I'm a proper liberal, I am also a hard core patriot. I also feel that the modern conservatives of my nation have betrayed every traditional value this nation was founded on.