Raid Spec Punishments

[Sesshou]

I think he was prioritizing based on spec - not distance. He'd only jump on the melee if there were no ranged left to jump on.
I know for a fact that he doesn't jump on the player farthest away, because on occasion we'd reach the point in the cat phase where you stack back up, and if not done correctly (I.e. some of the ranged being to slow to stack up) we'd get a jump in the middle of the stack and everyone would die horrible in the fire, while the moron who failed at life would be standing safely outside of the circle.

He did do that, but I'm pretty sure thats another one of those "people in melee range are only excluded as long as there are at least X players outside melee range" mechanics which in this case was no longer met because part of your group that stands at range had collapsed. Kinda like how Yorsaj wouldn't throw green globs on the melee if you had enough people at range, but if you didn't have enough people at range, people in melee range were eligible targets which isn't punishing people for being ranged dps but rather punishing those who have to stand in a certain place to let the mechanic work optimally.

[Hyrican]

He did do that, but I'm pretty sure thats another one of those "people in melee range are only excluded as long as there are at least X players outside melee range" mechanics which in this case was no longer met because part of your group that stands at range had collapsed. Kinda like how Yorsaj wouldn't throw green globs on the melee if you had enough people at range, but if you didn't have enough people at range, people in melee range were eligible targets which isn't punishing people for being ranged dps but rather punishing those who have to stand in a certain place to let the mechanic work optimally.

No, one healer or range in melee range was enough. The chance of actually jumping to that target was not that great in 25, but in 10... you just begged for it. (Not enough players outside constitutes a phase change and not a jump in the middle...)

[Verain]

A lot of fights now actually look at the spec tag- each spec is either ranged dps, melee dps, healer, or tank. So the boss will treat the ranged with mechanics that do not affect melee. This essentially is a silent buff to all melee in pve, by delivering on the promise.

See, picture a fight like Deathbringer Saurfang. In that fight, adds would be summoned, and they would mess everyone up if they hit the targets (every melee swing they did gave the boss extra energy, so he would do his hard mechanics faster). The best strategy for this was to have the ranged take down the adds, because if the melee did that, they would get punched and the fight would get much harder. The meters therefore showed the melee on the top- they just tunneled the boss pretty much the whole fight, while the ranged actually did the target swapping and kiting to actually get the kill. So what appeared to be a melee fight actually wasn't. In fact the melee were carried. If your guild, for some reason, was NOTHING but ranged, you would have done just fine on the fight. You would have had some ranged stand where the melee did, or just assigned to not switch- presumably whichever ranged were best at tunneling. In fact, every melee you add to such a situation was essentially taking "the good job" away from a ranged- so the melee were essentially selfish.

This new mechanic takes that away. Now being ranged has a penalty, not just an advantage, and you can be forced to move, which actually matters. It's a bit funny that it goes down like that, and maybe it's not the bestest possible way to handle it, but I'll take it a thousand times over the old way where my spec was just there to force a ranged out of a cushy job because I insisted on playing the retarded sister. This way is much better.

[Sesshou]

No, one healer or range in melee range was enough. The chance of actually jumping to that target was not that great in 25, but in 10... you just begged for it. (Not enough players outside constitutes a phase change and not a jump in the middle...)

Pretty sure you are wrong. Blizzard flat out said during DS (in regard to why they had no way to stop certain specs from rolling on loot they couldn't use) they had no way to determine a person's spec at that time. Meaning there was no way for the game to check if some one was ele or enhance etc which is why a hybrid with a caster dps spec could role on melee gear for their melee dps spec.

He did transition when you had enough people stacked, but he also would jump on some one running in that had entered melee range because there wasn't enough at range (also remember transition was based on X number of people being within Y yards of each other and not whether or not X number of people were within melee range of the boss).

Now, as Verian points out, they do now have a way to check specs and most of the fights now seem to work that way such as bladelord who will shadowstep and ae dot any player that isn't a melee, tank, or monk healer. This is a new thing though.

And thanks Verian, that DBS explanation was exactly my point. Its only punishing ranged dps if the mechanic punishes them for being ranged dps and not just standing at range and dpsing because some one has to stand out there and they are best at it.

[Deleted]

There's probably a distinction to be made between "determining loot for X spec" and simply "determining spec". Ultraxion did involve a spec-reliant buff, after all(that being the buff that would halve all the defensive tank cooldowns). They've also show-cased plenty of raid mechanics that disregard certain specs(mainly tanks) in favor of others. Baleroc's "Countdown" comes to mind. Or Zon'ozz' "Disrupting Shadow". They clearly seem to have been able to determine specs to some degree.

[Deleted]

Sub spec looks very nice to play compared to the other 2 specs but as many pl said it the running around required for the backstab its not worth it no extra dps no nothing special still some pl said it and it was fun and interesting that the backstab would not need the rogue to be behind target ... and gc admitted rogues are hk well yey ok np, we are hk we know this since we dinged and found it out the pin way we have been mutilated in silence, cool, so how about putting back the the original basic stats we had compare them a bit to other classes like the insane warrior that just cuts all in hes way and boost those basic numbers we had the dodge, heal, the good things we lost...........

[Sesshou]

There's probably a distinction to be made between "determining loot for X spec" and simply "determining spec". Ultraxion did involve a spec-reliant buff, after all(that being the buff that would halve all the defensive tank cooldowns). They've also show-cased plenty of raid mechanics that disregard certain specs(mainly tanks) in favor of others. Baleroc's "Countdown" comes to mind. Or Zon'ozz' "Disrupting Shadow". They clearly seem to have been able to determine specs to some degree.

Thats role though for all of that. They had said they could determine a person's role which is why you couldn't role on a tank trinket if you queued as a dps. The problem was differentiating between 2 dps specs of a single class. And what the blue said (pretty sure it was GC) was that they can't differentiate them at the moment (obviously does now) but wanted to add the feature in MoP. I mean they obviously has some tricks for things like how paladins for a short while could go prot with holy gear on sindragosa to avoid getting the exploding debuff but managed to fix it.

Seriously though get a full raid and try it (I mean I seriously doubt they bothered to go back and modernize the targetting like some of the new MoP fights). Its just like green oozes on Yorsaj. If enough people are far away, people in melee range will not be targeted even if theres a solitary mage or something in the center. Thats just the main way they decided to "balance" that crap in cata after they realized certain fights in t11 (mainly ascendant council and hm magmaw iirc) were ridiculously painful for melee.

[Kael]

There's probably a distinction to be made between "determining loot for X spec" and simply "determining spec". Ultraxion did involve a spec-reliant buff, after all(that being the buff that would halve all the defensive tank cooldowns). They've also show-cased plenty of raid mechanics that disregard certain specs(mainly tanks) in favor of others. Baleroc's "Countdown" comes to mind. Or Zon'ozz' "Disrupting Shadow". They clearly seem to have been able to determine specs to some degree.

Actually I have two REALLY big horror stories about Bear-catting the Ultraxion encounter from learning just how that spec determination goes. The first time I got caught in cat FORM after tanking the boss for the opening, I missed the buff and didn't get doubled duration/halved cooldown timers for tanking, and we wiped. Several pulls later, I was experimenting with cat form dps vs. the vengeance bear-DPS mid-encounter... and I got Fading Light... with the other tank. Big surprise: we wiped.

I'm not saying they can't differentiate melee/ranged or tank/DPS or DPS/healer (actually they seem to peg healers pretty* well), but it seems to be mechanically difficult on their end. Bladelord Ta'yak seems to be a "breakthrough" in the "we can actually punish ranged" department, and to a lesser extent, Lei-Shi, but heavy movement ranged and /cough warlocks with KJC /cough don't suffer at all from that phase and don't have to worry about staying in melee without running past her at the same time (a minor concern, but I found it irritating).

[Pikapika]

You most likely had those troubles because feral could tank and DPS at the time (unless it was post 5.0, but I doubt many guilds were learning the fight at that point). Now that guardian spec exists, problems like that shouldn't ever occur.

[D3athsting]

they realized certain fights in t11 (mainly ascendant council and hm magmaw iirc) were ridiculously painful for melee.

Not really hc magmaw, as 25man raid a frost dk or mage kited small adds while off-tank taunted big adds and brought them next to melee so that we rogues could pop BF, hit'em and cleave magmaw, there were other fights very melee unfriendly, hc maloriak you had to stack in front of him during red phase and was a parry fest, valiona (hc and normal), conclave, al'akir, sinestra and atramedes where during air phase all you had to do was avoiding circles and running if tracked...

[Kael]

You most likely had those troubles because feral could tank and DPS at the time (unless it was post 5.0, but I doubt many guilds were learning the fight at that point). Now that guardian spec exists, problems like that shouldn't ever occur.

Bears still leave bear form if they'll be DPSing outside of vengeance, prot warriors still leave defensive stance during execute if they're not tanking for a while and have no rage at the time...

It was primarily* caused by the feral/feral rift, but the mechanics leading to what's current leave a lot of determination by something that can be difficult to check. If Garalon had a tank-spec-check, Elusiveness rogues would almost certainly really be in trouble (granted not a "real" issue on heroic because of how hard that thing hits).

The spec-check or role-check has improved, but I'm not really sure about the limitations of the engine for getting the information it needs.

In the irony department for raid spec punishments -- I'll agree that plenty of things are more horrible for one spec and class compared to another, but almost every spec has SOMETHING that feels "punitive"... as Affliction on H Elegon, warlocks can't get soul shards back from draining either the protectors OR the charges! That's a real complaint when you run 250k+, right? ;D

[Ryme]

Backstab
Instant cast - 30 second cooldown
Instantly teleports you to the back of your current target, dealing X amount of instant damage and bleeding the target for an additional X amount.
If reactivated withing 3 seconds, instantly teleports you back to your previous position.

Hemorrhage takes its place in the actual rotation. Sub gets additional mobility, an actual dps cooldown, an ability that doesn't kill the rogue(CAUGHT KILLING SPREE CAUGHT), and the best part, a fun ability! In my opinion, at least. :P

I can't think of a way to turn it into a proper rotational builder unfortunately. That was the best I could concoct.

I actually love it, but it would mean that sub gets a double shadowstep, to which the world would cry out an ocean because pvp balance comes before fun in the rest of the game.

[Sesshou]

You most likely had those troubles because feral could tank and DPS at the time (unless it was post 5.0, but I doubt many guilds were learning the fight at that point). Now that guardian spec exists, problems like that shouldn't ever occur.

Those won't occur because now the game can detect specs so they don't need to find various tricks to differentiate mechanics.

Not really hc magmaw, as 25man raid a frost dk or mage kited small adds while off-tank taunted big adds and brought them next to melee so that we rogues could pop BF, hit'em and cleave magmaw, there were other fights very melee unfriendly, hc maloriak you had to stack in front of him during red phase and was a parry fest, valiona (hc and normal), conclave, al'akir, sinestra and atramedes where during air phase all you had to do was avoiding circles and running if tracked...

I wasn't talking about any of those mechanics. I was talking about how prior to a hotfix he was actually throwing his junk in the melee (well he could anyway, people at range were equally likely).

Mal's breaths in red phase were very well timed and you didn't need to sit there. Valiona hc was an absolutely amazing fight for rogues, there was also no real anti-melee mechanics on that. Conclave also wasn't really anti-melee, and in fact if you were on wind, it was easier to dodge the wind blast the closer you were. Now sure it had lots of movement, but that doesn't make it anti-melee. Alakir I guess you got stuck in front for p2 and he would parry, but overall I don't remember melee dps sucking on that and we didn't take more damage or anything. Sinestra wasn't really anti-melee either, not sure which mechanic you could possibly be thinking of. Atramedes was certainly a bit anti-melee in terms of dps since we couldn't hit it while it flied, but most ranged dps during that phase wasn't super great either as they had to constantly move out of bombs, and it certainly wasn't anti-rogue at all as we made probably the best kiters (I could kite literally the entire phase, I hit a gong as soon as the beam went out).

[Refrakt]

Me too, get sitting for heroic Galaron. Just that the Raid Leader want Combat Rogue for Cleave. Assassination with Versatility work well, don't we? 5 Rupture on Boss, before changing to legs?

[Sesshou]

Me too, get sitting for heroic Galaron. Just that the Raid Leader want Combat Rogue for Cleave. Assassination with Versatility work well, don't we? 5 Rupture on Boss, before changing to legs?

Why did you sit rather than respec... And no, multidotting with assassination on 2 targets is not even close to blade flurry. And I don't know if you should take versatility even if you did go assassination.

[Evi1Toad]

Sub should feel more like a stealthy class, which isnt easy in pve where you open once then park yourself behind the boss. What if sub got a restless blades type thing that worked on only vanish, so the rogue could kinda weave in and out of stealth during the duration of the fight.

I would also like if SV gave a crit buff to specials (I really miss the baked in crit, lol).

Sdance not having positioning requirements for ambush would be nice, espically when soloing old raids and such.

[Graffin]

Does any other class even have a positional dps requirement now?

[Deleted]

Does any other class even have a positional dps requirement now?

Feral Druids share the same positional requirement for Shred, although there's literally no reason for them to have it.

[Sesshou]

Does any other class even have a positional dps requirement now?

No other class has a single move that has a positional requirement 100% of the time that the class can do nothing about. Sub is the only one that can absolutely never use 2 of its key abilities without being behind.

They really should just go back to old sub which was based on slow weapons and keep the daggers to assassination.

[shadowboy]

No other class has a single move that has a positional requirement 100% of the time that the class can do nothing about. Sub is the only one that can absolutely never use 2 of its key abilities without being behind.

Shred and ravage say hi. Don't even mention the shred glyph--no raiding feral druid should take it except on fights like ultraxion. There are no fights this tier where you can't get behind the boss. In fact, in all of cataclysm, ultraxion was the only fight where backstab/ambush were not possible to use.