Dumbing Down Rogues

[Deleted]

SND as Combat and Assassination only (with Envenom refreshing Assassination), Rupture as Assassination and Subtlety only, and Eviscerate as Subtlety and Combat only. Now THAT would be fun.

Honestly, of the 3 specs, Assassination is the one that needs the least change. Regardless of what the haters say, I enjoy (both psychologically and numbers-wise) the wait time, the ramp-up, and fitting as many moves as possible into a 6 second Envenom window.

I don't understand why people want Assassination to actively put up Slice and Dice, yet make it a trivial buff to keep up. Is there a specific reason as to why it can't just be passive for Assassination?

[Deleted]

Easiest fix would be: SnD passive for all specs and give us more combo builders than just Mut/SS/BS.
For example I actually enjoyed the Cata combat Revealing Strike... felt more interactive.

[Carp The Fish]

Easiest fix would be: SnD passive for all specs and give us more combo builders than just Mut/SS/BS.
For example I actually enjoyed the Cata combat Revealing Strike... felt more interactive.

Expose Armor! /troll (but not really, it's actually really good for getting Rupture multi-dotting going)

[Deleted]

Whether SnD should be spec specific, I have mixed feeling about that, but the amount of passive damage it brings sure need to be addressed.
40% extra attack speed is just way over the top. i remember it being 25% once upon a time.
I wouldn't mind it being brought back to this 25%, or even 20%, and compensated in active damage.

the problem is whenever there is something wrong with rogues they stick a patch on it with a slight buff here or there. Hitting too slow? buff s&d, hitting too weak? buff ap. Instead of fixing the core mechanics which led to the original problem they bandaid it with an easy fix. Then a couple of years down the line they realise this easy fix is causing problems and they remove it and try a different bandaid. Look at blade flurry. it was FINE the way it was but it was felt combat needed a buff so they mutated it into a bastardised aspect to be turned on or off at will. Now they feel that bandaid has gone manky so their ripping it off and trying another cheap and easy fix.

One can only hope they over compensate again (like they did with fok in wrath when it was the most OP aoe ever for a couple of months)

[Stormdash]

I am pretty much opposed to classes having a single self-buff that they maintain to be not horrible. It's not hard, at least not very depending on rotation or mechanics, but it's just boring as hell. Rogues with SnD, Feral Cats, Ret Paladins, Windwalker Monks... not sure if I'm missing anyone, but at least all of these have a "maintain this or you suck very badly" mechanic. I would much rather they get to an approach of gaining short term self-buffs from specific attacks, much like we already deal short term debuffs like bleeds or other dots). Or turn Slice and Dice into, at least, an actual offensive strike that gives a buff -- I was certainly used to that in "Rift" at least where a number of rogue builds operated by maintaining one or more buffs, with a duration based on combo points, but it was put up by a finishing *strike*, not just a self-buff. It's an almost irrelevant difference on a sim maybe, but it sure feels more satisfying to actually attack then just hit the button that makes your buff timer reset..

I would actually like Combat specifically to be maybe redesigned similar to the Dual Blades set from "City of Heroes/Villains", where the set allowed you to do actual combos to achieve a result, either a self-buff or a debuff on the target or targets, depending on what combination of attacks was used. That feels most like combat of the WoW rogue specs, but could really be built into any of them. You could give Combat and Sub a mutilate variant (like dispatch is a backstab replacement now) that takes more energy, and maybe all rogues another direct attack, and let them execute combinations based not just on points --> finisher, but the actual arrangement of attacks in the chain.

Maybe not. Still sounds more interesting than Slice and Dice though.

[Coldkil]

Protip: it's ok to have things that buff passve damage, it's the way it's done that represents a problem

Look at Envenom - it does direct damage and buffs poison procs; it directly buffs passive damage but you don't feel using it passive, and requires good management since you want the highest uptime possible while the duration is very short. It doesn't feel mandatory but instead you feel rewarded the more you can keep it up.

Instead SnD is first of all mandatory - hence you feel forced to use it. It has a very long duration, so you aren't pushing it that much and even only a second of downtime translates into the biggest possible dps loss of the class. Not mentioning that Assa has it as passive so it's not active at all as ability.


The problems with SnD are two: too much of our damage is tied to a single ability and the core mechanic (long duration, bad feeling) feels just stale...ypou don't push it because it's rewarding, you push it because if you don't you're useless.

I look forward to SnD only for a single spec - tbh i look for the removal of it. I always thought that SnD souldh be the iconic finisher of combat, doing istant damage and increasing atk speed for a limited duration (like envenom works - it's an incredibly good concept).

EDIT: removing SnD won't dumb down rogues - it's not like "we take out this and buff all the rest so you have 1 less button to push". Instead since it represents a huge part of our damage, it opens a very big window for new mechanics and abilities.

[hoodrogue]

We complain about SND giving too much passive damage but don't Enhance, Fury and Windwalkers all have attack speed buffs?

[Cryonic]

Why not have a tree that is simple to play and one that is hard o play and let ppl choose their playstyle?

[Tenjen]

because if easy to play does more damage than hard to play people will complain and if it doesnt then easy to play will complain that they're being forced to use the hard one to be allowed in raids and if its the same then both will say whats the point? And hard/easy to play isnt even the issue. its not about "easy" and "hard". Its about most of our abilities being background damage that we don't trigger, just maintain occasionally while our actually chosen strikes dont contribute even close as much as the latter.

and hood, thats not it either. we're not complaining about SND giving too much damage. its about most of our damage overall being from passive sources rather than chosen strikes. Plus the attack speed boosters that those other classes have, they arent built around those abilities or as dependent on them as we are.

[Coldkil]

we're not complaining about SND giving too much damage

Actually i'm complaining exactly about that the impact that SnD has on the overall damage of EVERY rogue spec is so huge it feels like a mandatory talent and not a powerful move.

This is obviously coupled with the fact that the SnD button is actually pushed once every 35 or more seconds (or once for the entire fight for Assassination) and the effect on our rotation/gameplay is actually zero. If you don't have recount open, you would feel like nothing has changed.

[Improtaight]

imo, pressing a lot of buttons that dont really do something, like SnD, rupture, and RS just sux big time, i'm one of those people who like RNG and not having a steady rotation or priority.
i understand giving us something to hold up, lets say Rupture, since it does dmg, but all the rest just sux, instead of using Evs u end up just refreshing stuff (especially as Combat), whats fun about having most of ur dmg passive? like poisons on Assa or Melee on combat?

give us Rogues something to do god damnit! out of all the classes in the game its THE class that shouldnt have that much passive dmg, there's so much u can do with it, instead u get a class with 3 almost-the-same specs, and most of the dmg is passive... u can SS ur way through an entire raid and get along...

and thats about "dumbing down rogues" as it can get.

[delus]

I got the feeling it was more of a long term supposition, perhaps suggesting discussions among the dev team or to gauge a bit of reaction..

Personally, I feel sort of ok about slice and dice. I like how Envenom refreshes it as Assassination, even if conceptually it doesnt necessarily make total sense (like you could argue eviscerate did for rupture) I think they should have kept that mechanic

I think envenom refreshing snd effectively makes snd a passive buff anyways. Removing it doesn't really effect the feel of assassination beyond a dps loss.

[Deleted]

I think envenom refreshing snd effectively makes snd a passive buff anyways. Removing it doesn't really effect the feel of assassination beyond a dps loss.

It would, without a doubt, actually improve the spec, because you won't have to go through that awkward moment when you have to waste lots of energy just to get it running, nor do you risk losing the buff due to fight mechanics.

[Stede]

On assassination, SnD is not that big of a deal. On subtlety, the mastery plays a huge role in cycle stability - and it's not a big deal. On combat - especially in the current live build, you certainly feel the loss of SnD's glyph when cleaving.

I think the removal of the SnD glyph really hits Combat the hardest. It's not difficult to maintain otherwise. Rupture is really only mandatory on Subtlety for decent #s, and I think the SV buffs on the pTR are good, but I also think it'd be a good idea to think about having Subtlety's mastery buff Rupture duration (not necessarily damage), as well - as I feel that's one of the most maintenance-y spec of rogue right now.

[delus]

They would certainly have to change around subs mastery to accommodate the loss of snd from the subtlety repertoire. I guess they could have It affect combo point builders as well as finishers in order to not make the spec too bursty.

[Demeia]

I would keep S&D for all three specs. I'd leave it the same for assassin. I'd make it a hard-hitting finisher for combat (just behind eviscerate). And I'd add a DoT component for subtlety. That way you'd keep your iconic rogue ability across specs, have the power the devs want to keep us slower ramping, and not drive rogues up the freakin' wall because the power doesn't do any damage. One way or another we are going to get a ramp-button to press so it might as well be S&D. But they can make it hurt someone or be easier to maintain.

[truevalon]

Figured I'd add my opinions to this...

Rogue has become a very slow paced class. The iconic rogue gameplay should be quick paced and action filled, WoW rogues are anything but that. We have a too long ramp up time before we start doing effective damage. For pretty much all specs we depend on having both SnD and rupture up, then be able to spend cp on other finishers. I dont think any other class depend this much on uptime of certain abilities.

Another problem is energy starvation. Energy regens so slowly compared to our need to build cp to maintain SnD/Rupture or other finishers that often rogues just sit back and wait with nothing else to press while energy sloooooooooooowly ticks in towards a new mutilate. Not to mention that our ability simply does not seem to hit very hard at all anymore. Rogues used to be the king of burst. What happened Blizzard!?!?!

Anyhow what I would suggest is turn SnD into a passive for all specs. Make it increase with level. 10 at level 25, 20 at 50, 30 at 75 and 40 at 90. As for energy it seems that your max energy does not affect regen. It is a base of 10 energy per second. Change this to 10% of max energy and increase max energy for rogues with 10 every 20-30 level.

Just some suggestions

[D3athsting]

We complain about SND giving too much passive damage but don't Enhance, Fury and Windwalkers all have attack speed buffs?

Afaik their buffs are triggered passively from time to time, they don't have to actively mantain buff up to not lose 1/3 of their dmg output, if i remember well the other spec that needs a 100% active self buff is MM hunter, but again their haste buff is triggered by 2 Sshots in a row and is quite easy to keep up especially after they doubled its duration.

[Puck]

I don't know, I'd absolutely love not having to maintain SnD in PvP.

[Deleted]

the problem is whenever there is something wrong with rogues they stick a patch on it with a slight buff here or there. Hitting too slow? buff s&d, hitting too weak? buff ap. Instead of fixing the core mechanics which led to the original problem they bandaid it with an easy fix. Then a couple of years down the line they realise this easy fix is causing problems and they remove it and try a different bandaid. Look at blade flurry. it was FINE the way it was but it was felt combat needed a buff so they mutated it into a bastardised aspect to be turned on or off at will. Now they feel that bandaid has gone manky so their ripping it off and trying another cheap and easy fix.

One can only hope they over compensate again (like they did with fok in wrath when it was the most OP aoe ever for a couple of months)

I realise they upped SnD percentage to (temporary) fix rogue DPS in a way that is not too bursty for PvP. (if I recall they went up from 25 to 30 and then to 40)
And no, it is not the way to go as it doesn’t fix the core issues. It was more a bandaid. But now the bandaid on the bandaid on the bandaid is starting to cause an issue on itself, and people are getting tired of the bandaid, and are going to a decent doctor that can fix their issues (i.e they reroll or quit altogether)

I disagree on your p.o.v on Blade flurry however. Blade flurry was a move that was too OP on itself and felt mandatory to respec if you had cleave fights. Adding 60-70% of your damage by toggling a button, sure doesn’t feel right.
Right now they are shifting blade flurry from a cleave to a 4-5 target attack (and with the 40% they are going to, it will be a loss for 1 additional targets, a small loss or break even at 2 targets, but a gain for 3-5 targets), while leaving the other specs about evenly powerful, and that should give us more choice in that sort of fights. It felt quite wrong to have to respec for 2 fights just because of 1 ability.
We can discuss why they didn’t implement something similar for the other two specs to avoid a mandatory switch at some fights, but this seems like an ok move to me.
To be fair, I am glad they are exploring the possibilities with rogues, it is long overdue…

Next thing to discuss is why they are not revising the same cleave issue on other classes like DK, warrior and mage, but that is a discussion not meant for the rogue forum.