How do we "Fix" Death Knights?

[S2omegaS2]

You must be one of those who started playing DK in MoP then.

Want me to explain to you how it used to be fro frost in pvp?

Long story made short: It wasn't as simplified as it is now.

I don't mind how it is and I've played DK since the start of wraith.
I'll let you have your frost back if I can have blood dps back though =P

[valliant13]

I don't mind how it is and I've played DK since the start of wraith.
I'll let you have your frost back if I can have blood dps back though =P

See...I wasn't a fan of blood dps...what made it so great...I thought it was boring haha...similar to DW frost now...(pve wise)

[Unholyground]

vmagik...

I'm in no way absolutely agreeing with wrien when I say this...but the HB spam wouldn't be on blizzards radar if it was the intended way to play DW frost. The only difference that was supposed be within the frost spec was prioritizing KM with OB or FS. If it was indeed the way they wanted the spec to be played it wouldn't of made it live. They took whirlwind away from the single target rotation for warriors...why would they be ok with it for dks? They aren't which is why they are most likely going to fix it. The spec within the spec is crap. Both should value haste more than anything with 2h going for crit for the next best thing and mastery being the next best thing for dw. And again blizzard did NOT design dw to be played like this...they simply thought that it would be played normal with different priorities but I am convinced the players who play the game are smarter than blizzards dev team since they figure ways to take whats given and make it better than how it was intended like DW frost currently...Disagree all you want....but it wouldn't be on the radar and most likely be fixed sometime this expansion if it was the intended gameplay. They have been trying to get rid of the shadowfrost/masterfrost gameplay since the end of wotlk.

Thing is Master Frost isn't going anywhere unless they find a viable change that won't plummet DW into the ground, I for one like that mastery is the most desired stat for DW, They probably just need to make HB cost an Unholy+Frost and still have rime the way it is and then it becomes more of a decision than a requirement, also maybe making IT hit 50%-100% harder when frost fever is already on the target or something like that so rime procs on bosses (or in pvp) will be prefere IT to HB. Actually that kind of change might make Mastery better for 2H as well now that I think of it.

[Deleted]

vmagik...

I'm in no way absolutely agreeing with wrien when I say this...but the HB spam wouldn't be on blizzards radar if it was the intended way to play DW frost. The only difference that was supposed be within the frost spec was prioritizing KM with OB or FS. If it was indeed the way they wanted the spec to be played it wouldn't of made it live. They took whirlwind away from the single target rotation for warriors...why would they be ok with it for dks? They aren't which is why they are most likely going to fix it. The spec within the spec is crap. Both should value haste more than anything with 2h going for crit for the next best thing and mastery being the next best thing for dw. And again blizzard did NOT design dw to be played like this...they simply thought that it would be played normal with different priorities but I am convinced the players who play the game are smarter than blizzards dev team since they figure ways to take whats given and make it better than how it was intended like DW frost currently...Disagree all you want....but it wouldn't be on the radar and most likely be fixed sometime this expansion if it was the intended gameplay. They have been trying to get rid of the shadowfrost/masterfrost gameplay since the end of wotlk.

I know what you're saying... But this is the way blizzard intended DW to be played. Back at the start of the pre-mop PTR the whole DW and 2H play style was basically the same, they made the design choice to specifically switch to the "masterfrost" system for DW to make the specs feel/play differently, mainly because a lot of DKs asked for it and felt that DW and 2H were too similar - not just so DW prioritised KM on FS. It's on the radar now, IMO because of the amount of cleave/AOE heavy fights there have been this tier, some 2H DKs likely have concerns about the viability of their spec and because they're now making that conscious decision to move away from the "passive AOE" design.

While I'd like to think that players are smarter than blizzard's design team - that's just not the case on this occasion. Blizzard were well aware of what they were doing, the PTR went on long after this design choice was made... It's the cata masterfrost, elevated to an actual spec and all the play style "guides" from elitist jerks, Noxxic etc were released well before MoP actually happened. It would have been hot fixed after the pre-mop patch if it wasn't intended.

On top of that DW currently has about 5-6% downtime in 500ish gear (not counting ams absorbs) even when gemmed/reforged entirely into mastery - once the next tier rolls around if we're capping resources constantly then hey, obliterate might naturally take over from HB, forcing some buffs from blizzard to make DW competitive again.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you in terms of thinking the current DW design is odd, I don't personally think we should be spamming an AOE for single target damage but there's only a couple of ways blizzard can "fix" that - buff obliterate's base damage slightly (and reduce the 2h bonus slightly) or make icy touch the better choice for single target damage.

I'd go mental from the icy touch "whaping!" sound if that occurred though ;-)

Edit - additionally the main reason I went DW is because, in my 10man team we have a prot pala. Grats to blizzard on making haste dps plate the best option for a tank...

Oh, and I downright HATED blood dps in wotlk.

[Murdos]

See...I wasn't a fan of blood dps...what made it so great...I thought it was boring haha...similar to DW frost now...(pve wise)

Replace some of those ellipsis with commas already! Yeesh!

Also Blood dps was fun mostly because of the existence of Armor Penetration during WOTLK, it'd probably be noticeably less enjoyable now; the main draw was the high burst damage and the ability to ghetto cleave like a monster.

Basically, it played a lot like 2H Frost; big honkin' physical damage crits.

[SSHA778]

I'm in no way absolutely agreeing with wrien when I say this...but the HB spam wouldn't be on blizzards radar if it was the intended way to play DW frost. The only difference that was supposed be within the frost spec was prioritizing KM with OB or FS. If it was indeed the way they wanted the spec to be played it wouldn't of made it live.

The developers flat out said an HB-centric rotation was the design for DW Frost in Beta.

Having an HB-centric rotation is entirely intended and had been since Beta. It is still intended now, but as you pointed out:

They took whirlwind away from the single target rotation for warriors...why would they be ok with it for dks?

This action set a precedent. The precedent is why an HB-centric rotation is now something they're presumably debating internally. It's not because DW Frost isn't using OB. If they didn't set that precedent with warriors, there would have been absolutely no reason to consider altering the HB-centric rotation.