Is this not total bs?

[Reverence]

People has said that the customer "should" tip as well, same logic people use when they say that the employer "should" cover it.

Im just wondering, maybe it makes no sense, but all the delivery guys in movies and such (yea I know they are just movies, but maybe some truth to it) use a moped or a lighter veichle than a car, ever considered that? Im sure that would be cheaper for you to maintane (spelling?) and in return give you more cash to spend on other things, or am I completely wrong? Just because you decide to have a job which require you to pay for your own gas etc. doesn't mean u can't change things around to make it more convenient for you? If your wage as it is, isn't enough to keep up with your quality of life, maybe something need to change?

It really baffles me how people can even defend and be jerks to the people who refuse to tip, "on such a large order , they should really tip". Why on earth would they? they already spent shitloads of money on that order already.

With such a large delivery radius such as the one i operate in it is impractical to deliver in a moped. I started with an SUV but eventually bought a smaller car for better mileage. As for not tipping like Ive said many times over, if you cant afford to tip then you have no business placing an order for delivery. Its ok if people are against tipping, they normally pick up their orders themselves anyway. Its the people that do order for delivery and don't want to tip. It is generally viewed by the general public as a very rude and offensive gesture to skip on a tip (kids kinda don't count because they don't understand the concept)

Take for example this order of 150 pizzas. Me (the delivery driver) spent two hours going from point A to point B four times. Something like this. Load car with 30 pizzas, drive to point B(2 miles), unload car with 30 pizzas, drive to point A(2 miles), load car with 30 pizzas, drive to point B(2 miles), unload car with 30 pizzas, driver to point A(2 miles), load car with 40 pizzas, drive to point B(2 miles), unload car with 40 pizzas, drive to point A(2 miles), load car with 40 pizzas, drive to point B(2 miles), unload car with 40 pizzas, and finally drive to point A(2 miles).

Now I'm using my own car so that means when someone skips on a tip that I'm the one paying for the cost of delivery, that's why tipping a delivery driver exists in the first place (to off-set that cost, among other things). The cost of the ticket is irrelevant unless you tip on a % (which most people don't for delivery-which isn't a big deal).

Lets give it a WoW reference. If i get a blacksmith to come to w/e city i am in to craft me some belt buckles I would tip him/her. After all hes going out of his way to find my location and I'm paying for the use and convenience of his profession. Its not a perfect analogy but Blacksmihing = Delivery Driver.

[nowish]

With such a large delivery radius such as the one i operate in it is impractical to deliver in a moped. I started with an SUV but eventually bought a smaller car for better mileage. As for not tipping like Ive said many times over, if you cant afford to tip then you have no business placing an order for delivery. Its ok if people are against tipping, they normally pick up their orders themselves anyway. Its the people that do order for delivery and don't want to tip. It is generally viewed by the general public as a very rude and offensive gesture to skip on a tip (kids kinda don't count because they don't understand the concept)

Take for example this order of 150 pizzas. Me (the delivery driver) spent two hours going from point A to point B four times. Something like this. Load car with 30 pizzas, drive to point B(2 miles), unload car with 30 pizzas, drive to point A(2 miles), load car with 30 pizzas, drive to point B(2 miles), unload car with 30 pizzas, driver to point A(2 miles), load car with 40 pizzas, drive to point B(2 miles), unload car with 40 pizzas, drive to point A(2 miles), load car with 40 pizzas, drive to point B(2 miles), unload car with 40 pizzas, and finally drive to point A(2 miles).

Now I'm using my own car so that means when someone skips on a tip that I'm the one paying for the cost of delivery, that's why tipping a delivery driver exists in the first place (to off-set that cost, among other things). The cost of the ticket is irrelevant unless you tip on a % (which most people don't for delivery-which isn't a big deal).

Lets give it a WoW reference. If i get a blacksmith to come to w/e city i am in to craft me some belt buckles I would tip him/her. After all hes going out of his way to find my location and I'm paying for the use and convenience of his profession. Its not a perfect analogy but Blacksmihing = Delivery Driver.

As far as Im concerned, you are doing your job that the employer is paying you to do. To put it in WoW terms from my PoV, the BS guy is a guildmate of the guy who want the craft, I never ever give fee / request fee from guildies.

So if they tiped you for 1 cent, would you have been happy ? Or would you have complained that it was too little ?

[shadowmouse]

The result is the system we have now where the employer pays his servers/drivers less and the cost of your meal is also less.

False. It is just cost shifting. Food costs X, with a hidden charge of Y. That's the same as if the cost of the food were just X + Y charge for service. The consumer is still paying X+Y in either situation. Your premise is true if and only if the cost of the food is X and Y is an actual gratuity, one that is not a required part of the transaction. Once you feel that Y is required, we're back to a price of X+Y for service of fixed quality, with the variable that I can accept your passive aggressive "well I'm not so much threatening as, ya know, just say'n" and pay less than whatever mysterious price you deem fit. You're holding out for a system based on X + Y + Z where X is food, Y is service and Z is whatever else you can extract through playing the pity card and implied threats.

More like I'm less than a year from transferring. I work as a manager but...

If you have to say "a few" it is odd that you didn't simply say "a semester" or "a year". There are two standard semesters in a year, winter and summer semesters are non-standard and may not always offer the necessary courses. No, it might be possible for you to make the move, but you won't because you're comfortable with the way things are going. People who are looking forward to a change don't waffle around with their language, they have a plan and it shows. You're still in "less than a year" or "a few semesters" land.

Working as a manager but ... isn't being a manager. Your other post painted a different picture: "I started out as a delivery driver and was damn good at it. Now that I've moved into a management position ..." You also said: "i can get a reasonable raise ill take it but I'm only giving them one chance at it. If they feel that I'm making what they think I am worth then I'll put in my two weeks as soon as another job pops up."

You change what you're saying often enough that you must be a political science major -- what you say is whatever you want to spin it as. You aren't going to deliver promptly to the guy who doesn't tip, unless you do. You were a driver, you're a manager, you're a driver and a manager. You make good money, but you drunk post and complain you don't. You don't care about how much you would have made on the delivery that you post pictures of, but it is pretty well guaranteed that if they paid you a buck or two on each stage of the staggered delivery you would have been complaining about 5-10 bucks on a $1,300 delivery. The number of people who don't tip is so few that it doesn't matter, but it is worth going on the Internet and looking for sympathy.

The word "tip" hasn't changed; expectations have changed based several factors, but it remains a gratuity. On the day that changes, it will become a fee, we'll know how much it is, and it will be printed as a sum on the bill. Until that happens, you're just trying to rewrite things to conform to your story as you have repeatedly throughout the thread. Nobody held a gun to your head, you chose the job and accepted its conditions. You are free to change jobs. You're a manager? Fine, then talk with the other managers who presumably came up through the ranks themselves and fix the situation. If you don't, you're just part of the problem. Perhaps the reason the other employees don't like you (as noted in the other post) isn't your age, but rather your attitude.

Your employer doesn't pay you for insurance, but why should he? Do you keep two insurance policies? No? Then insurance isn't your employer's problem; if you're on the road, driving to school for example, you need to carry insurance. It may or may not be required by law in your state, but if you're a halfway responsible driver you should be carrying insurance anyway. That you keep going on about insurance is just mind boggling, there are probably jobs where insurance on a personal vehicle is covered but I'm drawing a blank. As for gas and maintenance? Guess what, the rest of us seldom get paid for them either. We drive to work, we drive back, we may be expected to go pick something up or otherwise use our vehicle for business purposes, we pay for suits (or office wear) and dry cleaning, and all of that is part of keeping our job. Most jobs have associated expenses, it is part of the trade off.

A smile/"hey how ya doing"/just general small talk

That's hardly anything to write home about. Hopefully you also don't pick your nose and you wear a shirt. Those things are part of basic, polite behavior and you think you deserve an extra pat on the head for them? Outside of food service, those things are expected. If you can't be polite -- if cracking a smile hurts your face so much you need to be paid extra for it -- don't expect to survive in an office.

[Somnophore]

They don't owe you anything, customers shouldn't be paying for your wage, your employer should.

I think you live somewhere else than US for instance. I live in Holland and here we Tip if we were satisfied with the service, but it's not obligatory. Here in Holland waitresses etc get a good salary for doing their job. The Tip is extra.

In a lot of countries (sadly the US being one of them) waitresses, etc, dont get paid a lot of money. So they have to fill in the gaps in their income with tips. Therefor you are supposed to tip. If the service was bad, tip less, if the service was good you tip much. But you always leave a tip.

Just the way their system works. I've had this discussion more than once with friends/co-workers but I believe that you should follow the "rules" of the country your visiting.

OT: not tipping for over a 100 pizza's is even rude here in Holland. Obviously I cannot suggest what to do with their next order here....

[nowish]

bungeebungee just summed it all up, very nicely if I may say.

I think you live somewhere else than US for instance. I live in Holland and here we Tip if we were satisfied with the service, but it's not obligatory. Here in Holland waitresses etc get a good salary for doing their job. The Tip is extra.

In a lot of countries (sadly the US being one of them) waitresses, etc, dont get paid a lot of money. So they have to fill in the gaps in their income with tips. Therefor you are supposed to tip. If the service was bad, tip less, if the service was good you tip much. But you always leave a tip.

Just the way their system works. I've had this discussion more than once with friends/co-workers but I believe that you should follow the "rules" of the country your visiting.

OT: not tipping for over a 100 pizza's is even rude here in Holland. Obviously I cannot suggest what to do with their next order here....

The fact remains, that it isn't a rule and shouldn't be treated as such.

So... if you ordered 100 pizzas in a normal local pizza store, and you would get them yourself, would you still tip the dudes actually making the pizza? If you decided to have them deliever you would have to pay extra anyway so why would you add more ontop of that? The delivery guy is still not the one making the actual food, he is only the one transporting it between the customer and the "chef". Want the pizza delivered to you? ok you pay a fee for it, the delivery guy who got the job to transport you the pizza does it, simple. Doesn't matter if the custom is to tip in the US.... the logic and freaking concept of it all is stupid serves nothing constructive , only make it worse due to several reasons which has already been stated in the thread.

[Silhouette of Seraphim]

As for not tipping like Ive said many times over, if you cant afford to tip then you have no business placing an order for delivery.

Bullshit. Employer offers service, I choose to accept said service. Whether you get some of that honey pot is entirely up to me and whatever I fancy at the moment. Oh, you're going to come deliver to me last? That's fine. If my pizza's not at an acceptable temperature, guess who's going back to get another one after I call their boss? And driving around wasting gas intentionally avoiding my house for a while to "show me but good" is laughable.

And you're a "manager" but not a manager. Do you even realize..? Oh nevermind, as a smart college kid I'm sure you've figured it out by now.

You're delicious. Get over yourself.

[Deleted]

You can't use fuel and insurance as a reason why you should get tips, anyone who drives to work needs to cover these costs themselves without having to rely on tips. Just because you drive during work doesn't give you any more reason to receive a tip, you knew the line of work when you signed up for the job in the first place. As it's been said numerous times, take it up with your employer if you aren't getting enough money to cover the bills, either that or change job.

The driver picks up a bag/box of food, takes it to a destination and expects a tip? For what exactly? What work did he do that he should deserve a tip? If anything I should tip the guys in the kitchen who actually made the food. Instead of giving a tip I keep them in business by ordering from them again, this alone should be enough. If I get lesser service because I don't tip, I will change where I order from. Personally I've been using the same place for months, i've never tipped and I've also never had a late delivery, the food has always been top quality and the delivery driver is always happy and cheerful.

If somewhere adds a service charge to the bill then fair enough, i'll pay it because the option of choice has been taken away. I'm not happy with it but what choice do I have? If fast food places start doing the same thing they will probably lose out on do much business. Which is why they charge for delivery instead (unless it's over a certain amount in which case the profit margins cover the fuel anyway). Sure it's a nice bonus to get a tip and i'm not against people who do, but you shouldn't expect it or treat people differently if you don't get one.

[Dazzy]

I know this will be a hard concept for most of you but see where it says "on account"?

That means they have a charge account with said establishment.

Most charge account holders never see a receipt. It is most likely signed by the pizza shop manager. And most charge accounts spend enough money to make enough profit for the business tips are not usually necessary.

Take it from someone with experience in business. It's a common practice and is 100% acceptable, the pizza shop probably just made $600 profit on that order in 1 hour, now you want a tip too? Kind of greedy aren't you?

[rowaasr13]

I don't know how things work were you are but that's how they work here.


Either the place where they worked gave them a proper living wage or they were lying.

Hey, internet though delivery boy, mind disclosing where do you work. I'll direct you superior to this thread just to see what happens. Hey, "complaints means nothing", right? Come on, do it.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 05:20 PM ----------

Because gas isn't free. Hell even maintenance isn't free. And if you want to throw one more thing into the fold, Insurance isn't free. All three of those come out of a delivery drivers pocket.

SO. FUCKING. WHAT? How it is client's problem? You seem to forget to mention that you pay rent, medical insurance and need to support your parents. Go tell it your next customer and demand $100. Get boot up your shitty selfish lazy ass.

I pay each day to ride private busses to work and spend money on yearly tickets on municpal transportation to work too. Gotta go write each of our customer letter demanding to compensate those!!! Next time my keyboard breaks I won't go to ops to replace it, no, I'll catch some company's partner guy and tell them to expect deadlines on their products extended by month if he won't buy me a new one personally!!!

Yeah, right. Did you see those stupid shit complains anywhere else EXCEPT positions handled with unskilled easily replaced minimum wagers who dream of entire world being in their debt?

Infracted: Please post more constructively and less derogatory.

[Deleted]

One other thing. If I order something here and it is below X amount then I must pay extra on top of the pizza (or whatever it is). But as soon as I go over that X amount, I don't have to pay extra anymore. For some business X is 20 EUR, for some it is 15 EUR, for some it is 50 EUR, for some there is no X. Almost nobody delivers for free here. Another trend, and personally this is my favorite, is to order online with IBAN, credit card, and so on. This way all I have to do is grab the pizza from the fellow and that's it. I won't have to grab my wallet, get my hands dirty from the coins, wait for change. Nothing like that. A quick transaction. And the delivery fellow can quickly continue without wasting any more time.

Now, if you don't have something like a delivery fee in your country, that's fine, but then don't complain if the delivery is suddenly too far away or too expensive. The customer doesn't care, they just want their food hot.

And you know what? The way I see it my tip is when I order again, and word of mouth about quality. That is where you self delusional drivers and servers will lose. Because if you treat the customer bad, there will be times in recession where you don't get to pick which customer to drive to first and then your boss will have to fire people.

Good point...more than possible the customer thought tip was included (but should have found out for certain). Although it is also equally possible that the customer KNEW tip wasn't included, but just didn't give a crap.

You'll never hear the times the customer double tips (once from receipt, then tips on that because thinking price is w/o tip). The customer doesn't notice, the server/driver either doesn't notice know or care, and neither does the boss.

Example: Worst restaurant job I ever had--high end Italian restaurant, Zagat rated and on top 10 lists for the city, whole thing. Boss was a total asshole to staff. Yelling, screaming at busboys, back of house staff, spent most of his time at work chatting up the 20 year olds he was somehow dating at the age of 50 something (yes he was dating more than one at once). Had a prix fixe event with 9 courses including wine pairings that was a low price for that place, $175 per person, automatic $35 gratuity added per person. 5 waitstaff, 2 bussers to pool tips and divide evenly, boss was to collect monies and divide tips.

We had at least 200 people come in that night, and that is a conservative estimate. Worked our asses off, helped with cleanup and dishwashing til 3 am. 200 ppl x 35 gratuity = $7,000 in tips, to be divided between 7 people.

Next day we come in for our tips, hands each of us $75. This was in a state where you made $3 an hour on top of your tips, no full minimum wage state like California, and we had worked around 14 hours that day doing setup and cleanup. And restaurant work is hard work.

Probably could have sued but this was the most beaten-down group of servers I had ever seen and the industry just sucks sometimes.

Story had a happy ending though, ended up getting a great bartending gig my last year of college downtown and was walking with a minimum of $500 a night on weekends. Bartending is underrated as a profession, you can make a lot of money doing it and it can be fun work.

Thanks for your story. You received less than 10% of the tip you should've received.

Moreover if we assume a 10% tip is right in USA, then that'd be $17,50 a customer, which means $3500 divided by 7 would be $500 tip. So even in that regard it is unfair.

I would have immediately left that job. But without drama. Stay courteous. It'll always look better on your resume.

[...]

Perhaps thats why you don't get a tip? Because you treated them poorly, or you spread the word to your friends about them and they then treated them poorly. If you want tips you can't act like a cry baby and rage when you don't get a tip. Because it only shows how you really didn't deserve one in the first place.

Yes, and this is something I find back in Japanese and Indian restaurants (and till large degree in Germany): courtesy. Whether you tip or not, no matter with how many people you come or what you order, you will be treated nice and fair. Service, dignity, courtesy are very important in Eastern culture in general, deeply ingrained in their culture for thousands of years. Now, I'm not very familiar with the original inhabitants of the USA, but I'm pretty damn sure their cultural values have been lost when the Brits, Dutch, Spanish and what have you set foot and took over.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 03:00 PM ----------

Its a fee that is optional based on your service.

While you personally can leave $0 as a tip, if everyone stops tipping then the restaurant will start charging everyone more to cover that. That means that you will be paying more if you take your food to go or dine in. As it is now you can take your food to go and not worry about the service charge or tipping. If you take advantage of the service you should be paying for it. If you don't then your freeloading off other people that do.

Personally I don't mind freeloaders as that means I'm getting better service than they are.


Yes, thats called freeloading. Other people tip for the service and you get a smaller bill because of it. That's ok with me because I get my food first and you get to come after me.


The boss pays the employee based on the assumption that they will be getting tips. The employee that is giving you service is not getting much out of it if tips are not given. The prices on the menu reflect that lower wage. If you don't want to pay for the service you have the option of just leaving with your food.

If you don't want to tip and freeload off of other people that's fine. As long as you're OK with not being the server or driver's priority.


You don't have to tip. Well, unless everyone doesn't tip then your cost is going to be more to cover that. You also don't have to come first.

Seems to me like a broken system because it encourages the customer to pay a sum on top of the price which is expected by culture, and when they don't, then suddenly the driver kids get angry and will do things like spit on the food (read in thread several times), deliver them cold food (read in thread several times) or deliver them late (read in thread several times).

Either way, I wanted to call you on your usage of the loaded word freeloader. They paid the minimal amount they're legally required to (as advertised). That's not freeloading. You don't like it, that's fine, but it sure as hell isn't anything remotely near freeloading.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 03:07 PM ----------

in our area restraunts now add the tip to the cost of the bill. pizza places also add cost of gas to the bill as well. i guess they got tired of people not tipping.

Or maybe they figured that system is better because it is more accurate and more fair. Newsflash: not every system you're using is the best in the world. Hello? You're still using Fahrenheit?! Even the incredibly stubborn chauvinistic Brits stepped away from that.

Here's how you can improve your system:

* Include any service fee in bill, or make it part of the cost of the actual product (customer knows in advance what they pay).
* At least minimum wage from boss.
* Add the gas money to the bill (calculated with GPS) since it is part of the job. Or boss pays and its subtracted from profit.
* Suggest to pay in advance (quicker transaction).
* Let employee lease the car.
* Tip optional, but understand a returning customer is akin to a tip.

[Kathandira]

I worked in the Service industry for more than 7 years. I'll fill you in on the knowledge i acquired.

First, T.I.P.S.

This is not just a word, it has a meaning. To Insure Proper Service. When this idea started, it was not to pay your server what his employer is not. It was actually originally given at the start of the visit, to ensure you get extra special care. Example, on an important date and you want every thing to go perfectly, slip the waiter a $20 as you are seated to ensure everything meets your higher than normal expectations.

In the U.S. minimum wage is just shy of $8.00 per hour. A waiter in New Jersey makes $2.14 per hour + Tips. It is common cultural knowledge in the U.S. that servers make their profit from the tips provided by customers. The $2.14 per hour a server makes pays for his/her taxes and such. Mind you, part of your tips goes towards that as well. Sometimes the $2.14 + tips does not cover the taxes you are required to pay. By law, the employer must cover the difference.

Also, If you care about your servers well being, Tip in Cash always! Credit Card tips are automatically taxed at the highest percentage. Servers do not make a whole lot in tips on a average, so they do not declare 100% of their tips to be taxed.

In my experience, I typically excuse foreigners. I understand that over seas servers make more per hour and do not require tips to make their expected income. But if someone is old enough and obviously has lived in the U.S. his/her whole life, I expect them to know how to tip properly.

Personally, I would love to see this system dissolved. There is no reason any business should be excused from paying their employees less than the national minimum wage. Working for tips is not very reliable. You could have a really good week and make $500!, or a week where you made $20 for the entire week. Even though you are at the establishment for 40 hours, you could get paid the equivalent of working 10 hours. For a single mother supporting a child (just an example), this would be impossible.

[Deleted]

Because gas isn't free. Hell even maintenance isn't free. And if you want to throw one more thing into the fold, Insurance isn't free. All three of those come out of a delivery drivers pocket. All three of those are also rather expensive in most situations. Going off of your use of the word "culture" I'm going to assume you don't live in America and therefor don't understand the custom of tipping. And while we're on the subject, at your place of business do you use your own car, gas and insurance to complete the task (if the answer is no they you cant compare the two occupations)

EDIT: A lot of people have been saying that employers should cover the costs of those three mentioned necessities. Let me take out the most important word of that last sentence; should. It has no place in a debate such as this because there is nothing to debate about it. There's a lot of things that should happen in life, when does that ever happen?

Maintenance? Please. Then lease the goddamn car? When I was young I delivered newspapers and I had to drive through the rain at 5 in the morning. The customers don't care, they want a dry newspaper, and they'll get one too. If my bike needed maintenance I paid it from my wage. And I needed extra food too. When I had a job in warehouse I needed special army boots with steel nose. I had to pay those from my own money too. Part of the job kiddo. I'm telling you old gits, this thread is a prime case of kids these days being spoiled.

Aside from the fact we can't even verify the OP didn't make the whole story up because we can't verify it at all. We don't have a drivers name, we don't have a company name, we don't even know why the price was edited and by whom. We don't know if there was any kind of volume discount or special deal (don't see why not). It just reeks of a "look at us poor drivers" type of post. An appeal to pity. Well as I pointed out above there's other countries in the world and their delivery system makes a lot more sense to me compared to yours. Don't hate the customer, hate the system. Saying "well that's just the way the system works" is bollocks. The system is constantly in development, your boss can certainly change it if he wants to. But you also need to have the balls to call him on it.

[Doctor Amadeus]

It is your job, sorry but nobody is entitled to tip you for that, and personally i don't. Not unless the service is exceptional, but not automatically.

[Celista]

You'll never hear the times the customer double tips (once from receipt, then tips on that because thinking price is w/o tip). The customer doesn't notice, the server/driver either doesn't notice know or care, and neither does the boss.

This actually happens quite often. Good servers highlight the gratuity on the check or otherwise indicate that gratuity is included. Unfortunately not all servers/restaurants are that ethical...but I know many that were.

Thanks for your story. You received less than 10% of the tip you should've received.

Moreover if we assume a 10% tip is right in USA, then that'd be $17,50 a customer, which means $3500 divided by 7 would be $500 tip. So even in that regard it is unfair.

I would have immediately left that job. But without drama. Stay courteous. It'll always look better on your resume.

I did end up putting in my notice, very quietly, a week or two later.

[Deleted]

honestly coming from someone living in the uk, seeing the attitude in this thread by the poster I wouldnt tip him, his attitude strikes me like a little child being told he cant go to the sweet shop four days in a row.

Sure america has a tip culture but is not mandatory and honestly when paying so much in one transaction comes off a bit greedy to say you want them to spend MORE money after spending all that.

[poser765]

Aside from the fact we can't even verify the OP didn't make the whole story up because we can't verify it at all. We don't have a drivers name, we don't have a company name, we don't even know why the price was edited and by whom. We don't know if there was any kind of volume discount or special deal (don't see why not). It just reeks of a "look at us poor drivers" type of post. An appeal to pity. Well as I pointed out above there's other countries in the world and their delivery system makes a lot more sense to me compared to yours. Don't hate the customer, hate the system. Saying "well that's just the way the system works" is bollocks. The system is constantly in development, your boss can certainly change it if he wants to. But you also need to have the balls to call him on it.

Why are people still on this? I had hoped i cleared that up. The system doesn't need changing. it works just fine. Christ, op's post was just a gripe. i would have made the same complain, but would have done it not in a public forum. I also, like he, probably would have gone on merrily about my day.

I think what happened is people went way to extreme in this thread. OP made post, some called customers scum, and someone called drivers losers and shit just went down hill from there. here we are 1400 posts later and people are using the same tired arguments on both sides. Both sides are misrepresenting the issue of tipping, thus making it appear far more controversial than it is.

[Kathandira]

Sure america has a tip culture but is not mandatory and honestly when paying so much in one transaction comes off a bit greedy to say you want them to spend MORE money after spending all that.

I think this is the problem.

In the U.S. servers who make server wages ($2.14 per hour) require tips to make their expected wages (at least minimum wage) Although this is not posted or made mandatory any where. I know to some servers sound greedy, but work as a waiter for a few months and let me know how greedy that server really is when you yourself are living off of the curtsey of the general public.

Some restaurants post in the menu that any tables of 8 people or more will automatically have 18% gratuity added to their bill.
Also as posted earlier some waiters will circle the gratuity if it is automatically posted on the bill so that the guest does not unexpectedly pay double the intended amount.

Some restaurants actually add gratuity to all bills so that the servers do not get screwed.

All of this is wonderful, but it does not fix the problem that people are looking at a menu and seeing a burger for $6.00 and a drink for $1.50 and end up paying $10.00 after tax and tip. They expect to pay $8.00 tops, not an extra $2.00 just because some one walked their food and drink from the kitchen.

Service is a mandatory part of the dining experience, it is not a la carte. It should not be an additional fee that the guest is expected to pay. Law needs to be passed to require employers to pay service personnel minimum wage.

[poser765]

Service is a mandatory part of the dining experience, it is not a la carte. It should not be an additional fee that the guest is expected to pay. Law needs to be passed to require employers to pay service personnel minimum wage.

This is just bullshit though. In a nice way...really not being rude. Customers are free to tip or not as they see fit. While tipping is counted on it is in no way, shape, or form obligatory. You are advocating a law to fix a problem that simply doesn't exist.

[shadowmouse]

This is not just a word, it has a meaning. To Insure Proper Service.

Although this is a popular story, you might want to google it. It is addressed on multiple sites. For example snopes provides:

Tip is an old word, and it has nothing to do with either acronyms or the act of attempting to influence quality of service. Although the word has many meanings, both as a verb and as a noun, the use of the term as it applies to monetary rewards to servants dates to the 1700s. It first appeared in this context as a verb ("Then I, Sir, tips me the Verger with half a Crown" from the 1706 George Farquhar play The Beaux Stratagem) and was first recorded as a noun in 1755. However, the use of tip to describe the act of giving something to another (where that list of possible 'somethings' could include small sums of money, intelligence on horse races, or the latest silly joke) goes back to 1610. Tip slipped into the language as underworld slang, with the verb 'to tip' (meaning 'to give to or share with') being used by shady characters as part of the then-current argot of petty criminals.

[Kathandira]

This is just bullshit though. In a nice way...really not being rude. Customers are free to tip or not as they see fit. While tipping is counted on it is in no way, shape, or form obligatory. You are advocating a law to fix a problem that simply doesn't exist.

A law to remove the stigma and but mostly for fair treatment towards employees.

Please do not over look the point that a waiter in New Jersey makes $2.14 per hour. At a 40 hour week that is roughly $86.00 a week before taxes, $61 that you bring home.

If no one tipped at all that week, (yes this is rare but i've had really low tip weeks in the past) you made $61 for 40 hours of being at work. If the whole month is like that, then you made $260.00 that month after working 160 hours. And finally, that is just under $2,000.00 for the entire year after taxes. A whopping $2,000.00 that's basically the gas money to get to work each day. So without tips, how do you expect a server to live?

Now if we forced restaurant employers to pay the minimum wage, this could be a more fair market for the employee's. And! Guests would no longer have to worry about tipping. They can out to eat and pay what the menu advertises and not that little extra for the guy who is doing his job as expected.