What are your opinions on mage direction as of patch 5.2 on the PTR

[zomgDPS]

Currently, according to me at least, the following are the current 'hot topics' for 5.2

- The new face of Arcane: Arcane is getting some attention (finally) and if what GC has said recently is any indication, it seems to be moving in the right direction. That being said, the changes are big and not on the PTR yet, but this is something I will be tracking very closely. Too bad that it seems we will have to wait another week or two before the new arcane makes it to PTR. I REALLY wanted to test it out

- Blazing speed. Its been 2 patches now and we are still stuck with the rather sh!tty "replaces blink" version of BS. That being said, GC has said multiple times that they are still 'iterating on it'. SO I'm pretty sure a new version is coming soon and this is one of the things to keep an eye out for. The new BS has a LOT to live up to being in the talent tier that its in and given what its trying to do (replace blink? yea you better bring something pretty awesome to pull that off).

- The level 90s. Apart from a few nerfs here and the *new* invocation there (which, btw, I'm not sure I even like since it has the ability to be extremely under-powered in some situations but completely OP in others - esp when you switch contexts from PvE to PvP). That being said, I am almost 100% sure the current state of the level 90s will not be going live. They just do not compare right now so I am positive we can see some changes to them. e.g. why would a fire/frost mage take the current PTR RoP over current PTR Invoc? Both give the exact same dmg buff for the exact same casting cost, but one leaves you immobile and the other doesn't. Since fire and frost dont care about mana, that part of the talents is pointless. Its examples like this that tell me that they still have work to do for the level 90s, which is good, since those talents need to be looked at badly.

- The Fate of the Welly. A lot of drama about FoF and Nova and what Welly means for frost. Imho, I never liked the idea of a permanent pet, in fact, it is one of the things I DON'T like about playing frost. If we remember back, welly has always been a CD, even back when it was on the Archmage in War3. I wouldn't mind welly getting a boost to its damage but being made a powerful CD. I just don't like the idea of a mage 'pet' spec. Taking petnova off the Frost mage's rotation is a good move imho. Frost already has waay too many tricks over the other two specs (which is why even though people like to b!tch and moan, Frost is still dominating the other two specs in both PvP and Challenge modes). That being said, I think the story of welly as far as 5.2 is concerned is not over. I actually wouldn't mind if the War3 Archmage's version of the welly made it in game. For those who remember, you could have 3 wellys out with the Archmage, but it was still a CD and had duration. Something like that might be pretty cool.


All that aside, we have had 2 ptr patches now with no changes for mages. Lets hope the next patch brings some big ones. I want to get testing properly.


Along with this, there are a few things that I WISH they would look at. These are things they haven't mentioned but are issues I think they really should take time to look into.


- Slow. I'm sorry lil'nubs but slow sucks. It is the ONLY thing Arcane gets and it really just cannot compare to the toys Fire and Frost gets. Slow needs a complete revamp. It needs to be something that actually makes an impact for Arcane since right now its a complete joke. It needs to be made into a central mechanic for the spec.
I am convinced that the uselessness of Slow is a major contributing factor why Arcane as a spec is failing in both PvP (Arenas and rBGs) as well as Challenge modes. Arcane will continue to suffer in those domains until Slow gets some love. You can quote me on that. I lolled at the statment by GC where he said he let hunters keep silencing shot because he wanted hunters to bring something to the table and not just be the class/spec that says "we bring burst", when that is EXACTLY the situation Arcane is in right now. The whole reason Frost and Fire are used over arcane is since they burst just as hard, but have a ton of other tools that make them more than just zomgdps.

- Greater Invis. I want to use this talent. I want it not to suck as hard as it does. If nothing else, fix the bugs with the talent. Right now whether it even works or not is a crapshoot. They NEED to take a look at this and make it work. To start with, make it clear dots, not just 2, but maybe 4 or even all. Next, fix the bug where it sometimes does nothing at all (and no, its not because some projectile is mid flight, sometimes it just really doesn't do anything).

[Deleted]

I actually wouldn't mind if the War3 Archmage's version of the welly made it in game. For those who remember, you could have 3 wellys out with the Archmage, but it was still a CD and had duration. Something like that might be pretty cool.

I like the name "dot with legs" so i will use it.
Now we have a dot with legs for 2 seconds casttime and its all there. With your change we have a dot with legs that we can cast every x seconds and it is their for 3x seconds. Fine. Whats the different?
I mean we could delete frostbomb and set we at this place. It would be another form of an dot but simple not more then a dot.
In WC3 we was huge dmg with a little tankiness in an strategygame. We are in an mmorpg. You cant make it the same.
Mage with elemental: Good!
Mage with the same model and elemental like in wc3: Bad!
I thinks its stated often enough that the permanent pet is the best solution for PvP and PvE. So i think we should forget a cooldown or something like that and just go back to the point that its a dot with legs. Imo here is the main issue.

[zomgDPS]

I like the name "dot with legs" so i will use it.
Now we have a dot with legs for 2 seconds casttime and its all there. With your change we have a dot with legs that we can cast every x seconds and it is their for 3x seconds. Fine. Whats the different?

No.

Lhivera coined the term "dots with legs" when people were just trying to have a discussion about the welly and I think by now everyone here knows what I think of his ability to comprehend game mechanics and his ability (or rather, lack of) to look at the game in a holistic context. The guy has a massive hard on for his water elemental and starts throwing sh!t fits if anyone even just wants to discuss its possible future. Its as if we aren't even allows to discuss it. Too bad the only thing he cares about is how a CD based welly will hamper his RP. I for one am sick of him having any say in class design. The guy's entire world view is just too effing narrow.


So no. "Dots with legs" is about as absurd a description for the water elemental (both my version as well as the live version) as saying something like "oh mages use nukes and shamans use nukes so they are basically the same class". Using "dots with legs" as your main way to argue a point will allow you to look at anything in the game and say "wahts the different?"

Water elemental being a pet (and having 3 of them out at a time) is going to bring a lot more than "dots with legs" to the table. Just the added distraction and aggro management (which is HUGE in challenge modes) means it is a buff. On top of that, the cooldown version of the welly will actually be stronger since it isn't a persistent effect.
The 'tankiness' aspect will still exist (again, do some challenge modes and you will see why - heck, even the Mirror images start shining for their ability to absorb blows in challenge modes), so having 3 more targets for something to hit on instead of you is going to be a massive gameplay boost.


A key aspect which I feel many MANY people seem to forget to take into account is that this game does not revolve around boss fights and more specifically, it does not revolve around patchwerk boss fights. There are other extremely competitive end game aspects to WoW that need to be considered when looking at design. Challenge modes, rBGs, Arenas, Raids. These 4 pillars are a good place to start when you are considering class design.


A frost mage with 3 elementals out, 3 images out, Frost orbs out will be a sight to behold in any of these end game parts of wow (heck, just the chaos alone could turn the tide of battle in an rBG). So no, please, lets not go down the path in limiting our understanding of the game by reducing changes that we don't like to descriptions such as "dots with legs". Its silly, pointless and not constructive at all.

[GhostPanini]

So the changes in arcane is interesting. If my math is correct it is a 39% damage increase at max stacks(new damage/old damage), and the mana cost will be 30% decrease at max stacks. So basically arcane is getting a huge buff? Please correct me if I am wrong.

New damage: x*1.5*1.5*1.5*1.5
old damage: x*(1.24)^6

change in damage: new/old = 39%

I did the same process for the mana.

[Imnick]

We all know of your relationship with Lhivera but I think it's a bit disingenuous to keep attributing things to him.
Doing a Forum Search for "Dot with legs" returns an amazing four results, two of which are from hunters and none of which are from him. As far as I was aware, I'm the person who started getting people to say that on this forum so if you want a person you can bring up to derail forum topics feel free to spend half of your post cursing my name instead.

What you say are all certainly aspects to consider, but they're things that don't really fit Blizzard's design scope for the spell and it doesn't fit those roles very well.
The Water Elemental doesn't have to have Water Jet but it does need to have some form of active ability to make it interesting. Fire and forget passive damage abilities just aren't fun! You press them on cooldown and go back to your rotation! That's why Fire lost Flame Orb but Frost kept it, the cooldown provided an interesting change to your regular rotation rather than just being a button you hit ever 60 seconds for passive damage.

I wouldn't even mind the WE being made a cooldown as long as it still retains some passive utility. You want to use it to soak hits in Challenge Modes? That's fairly difficult as is without use of aggro drop mechanics (at which point they'd presumably just go to your tank anyway unless he's dead) so give him a taunt. Maybe even a shield! He can take more than three hits then!

Hell, if you want it purely as passive damage then that works too, with your idea for multiple elementals! Keep it as a cooldown but make it a short one, with a chance on a spell (preferably not Frostbolt because we use that enough already but I'm not sure what else could proc it) to reset, so if it's a passive damage button at least it is one that changes dynamically with our rotation.


I don't care whether we lose Freeze or not but it needs to be replaced by another active button to press, rather than a passive one that you hit every time that it is off cool down, with a fixed cooldown.
Hunters could do with less buttons to hit, I don't think that's a problem facing any other class in the game and thus removing rotational interest and complexity is never going to be a good thing.

I'd also angle away from arguing "it's always been a CD!" because the glyph that stopped it from being a CD was included in Wrath, and in fact at this point it's not had a CD for almost a whole third of the game's lifespan :P
Not to mention arguing tradition is more important than current gameplay has always been a bit of a strange fallacy.

[zomgDPS]

To be fair, I wasn't as much "arguing tradition" as demonstrating that "permanent welly" isn't the only way the spell can work. The idea is to think outside the box since too many people have knee-jerk reactions to even the mention of welly becoming a cd.


There are soo many things that can be done with Welly when its not a permanent pet. Heck, we can even spitball and iterate and say something like "you use frostbolts to build up charges of buff X and spend those charges to summon elementals". Heck, we can even link it to FoF and make FoF a full blown resource for frost.

Now I'm not saying that these ideas are the only way to redevelop welly, Im just trying to get people unstuck in their thinking about welly. Trying to get them unstuck in thinking that "a permanent pet with a pet ability which interacts with your rotation" is the ONLY way welly can work. Its not, and that is the real point here.



As far as your other point is concerned, about you being the champion of the walking dot idea of welly, I'll just leave this here:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709121828#5

Sure, he may have piggy backed on the term and popularized it even if you came up with it, but that doesn't change the fact that he is not even willing to discuss the idea of changing the welly. For example, here is his comments on a discussion about potentially looking at alternatives after removing welly from being a perma pet:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7708992400#12

Cold, dead hands, Swamp. Cold, dead hands.

So yea. Im less concerned on who wins patent rights to the name. Im more concerned with the close-mindedness of people who are not even willing to consider or listen to arguments pertaining to change. After all, thats been the issue with the mage class (and its MVP) for ages now.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 08:13 AM ----------

So the changes in arcane is interesting. If my math is correct it is a 39% damage increase at max stacks(new damage/old damage), and the mana cost will be 30% decrease at max stacks. So basically arcane is getting a huge buff? Please correct me if I am wrong.

New damage: x*1.5*1.5*1.5*1.5
old damage: x*(1.24)^6

change in damage: new/old = 39%

I did the same process for the mana.

I think its too early to get into the numbers just yet. The best we can say is that "Arcane is changing". The difference is that this change is change for the better since, well, Arcane kind of needed something to get it out of the rut it has been in since MoP Beta.

GC has mentioned many times that the 'numbers tweaking' will happen at a later time of PTR. Right now they are still working on the design for things. All we can do is hope the design works out and see what basic mathematical changes will arise from these design changes. Trying to get into detailed calculations of exactly how much of a buff/nerf the changes are will happen a little later methinks.

[Swizzle]

I'd also angle away from arguing "it's always been a CD!" because the glyph that stopped it from being a CD was included in Wrath, and in fact at this point it's not had a CD for almost a whole third of the game's lifespan :P

Vanilla: didn't exist
TBC: CD
WotLK: Permanent
Cata: Permanent
MoP: Permanent

It was a CD for only 20% of the total game time, and permanent for 60% of the time. If we knock out Vanilla from the equation, it's been a CD 25% of the time and permanent 75% of the games lifespan. Basically, anyone who really wants it as a CD never really played with it when it was on CD.

[Imnick]

I was talking about real time rather than expansion time though Swizzle, that skews the data because Vanilla was disproportionately longer than any other expansion and it wasn't added in the launch of Wrath

[zomgDPS]

Vanilla: didn't exist
TBC: CD
WotLK: Permanent
Cata: Permanent
MoP: Permanent

It was a CD for only 20% of the total game time, and permanent for 60% of the time. If we knock out Vanilla from the equation, it's been a CD 25% of the time and permanent 75% of the games lifespan. Basically, anyone who really wants it as a CD never really played with it when it was on CD.

Oh I certainly played with it when it used to be on CD.

Though I don't think much of this type of reasoning is even relevant. The real issues with welly didn't even matter pre-MoP since frost wasn't pve viable anyway. So any QOL issues or any other issues the spell had/has were eclipsed by the other major issues preventing frost even being PvE viable in the first place

[Swizzle]

I was talking about real time rather than expansion time though Swizzle, that skews because Vanilla was disproportionately longer than any other expansion and it wasn't added in the launch of Wrath

Granted, but the WEle didn't exist in Vanilla, so it's hard to get a concrete estimate on its iterations and lifespan. Actually, a quick survey of the spell shows the glyph to make it permanent was introduced in 2009, so it went roughly...2-2.5 years as a CD, and a little longer than that without a duration.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 03:26 PM ----------

Oh I certainly played with it when it used to be on CD.

Though I don't think much of this type of reasoning is even relevant. The real issues with welly didn't even matter pre-MoP since frost wasn't pve viable anyway. So any QOL issues or any other issues the spell had/has were eclipsed by the other major issues preventing frost even being PvE viable in the first place

Yeah I know these types of arguments are rather pointless, but I just want to point out that people saying it's spent a majority of its lifespan as a CD are simply not correct. Having it have no duration has made Frost slightly easier to live with in PvP and quite possibly easier to balance since FoF generation is relatively normalized with it out.

[Deleted]

Challenge modes, rBGs, Arenas, Raids. These 4 pillars are a good place to start when you are considering class design.

Ok lets think in this 4 pillars:
Challenge Modes: Frost is more then perfect in this and so you think another heavy tool would be good? Dont know if this is good balance. Maybe. I dont have done challengemodes till now and so i will not say any more.
PvP: Yeah go back to the point where frostmages where only good when the we was out. It was one of the major things for making the elemental permanent. Burst is allways a problem in pvp and we see it in this addon again. making the we again with cooldown would bring this problem back to the world.
rBGs: Someone remember the good old 3-Minmage. I do. And it was in fact terrible for me. I didnt liked it. Ok thats maybe only me but i think it was not changed because of me either because it was a bad design to only rule everyone in 2 sec when you have all your buffs available..
Raid: All said above.
I dont say WE is fine now. I want more interaction with it. Maybe a cooldown to mirrorimage the pet with us or such things. But going back to an pure cooldownmodel is really bad in all parts of the game.

[Methusula]

I was thinking of a way to make Blazing Speed attractive enough to actually consider taking and forgoing Blink and Ice Barrier in the process. Nothing short of becoming a 2 second, cc immune, fiery projectile that left dot and a snare on everything it touched, came to mind. I really think the best bet would be to make Scorch baseline again, put a reasonable version of Blazing Speed in t15, and replace it's position in t30 with a new defensive CD. This would take a good deal of balancing so I dont see it happening but it seems to make more sense.

[Elegiac]

Vanilla: didn't exist
TBC: CD
WotLK: Permanent
Cata: Permanent
MoP: Permanent

It was a CD for only 20% of the total game time, and permanent for 60% of the time. If we knock out Vanilla from the equation, it's been a CD 25% of the time and permanent 75% of the games lifespan. Basically, anyone who really wants it as a CD never really played with it when it was on CD.

Bending the truth a little; during Wrath, it became an -optional- permanent pet obtained via a glyph about half-way through the expansion, at the cost of Freeze.

[Imnick]

As Freeze was then pointless outside of PvP it was a DPS loss not to glyph it though~
That said it was also a DPS loss to play Frost at all

[Elegiac]

As Freeze was then pointless outside of PvP it was a DPS loss not to glyph it though~
That said it was also a DPS loss to play Frost at all

Pretty much. If Blizzard is so opposed to having WE play a part of the rotation, then honestly they -should- revert it to a DPS cooldown again, albeit one that can have slightly more benefit tied to it (similar to the improved Elementals for Shaman)

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 03:53 PM ----------

I was thinking of a way to make Blazing Speed attractive enough to actually consider taking and forgoing Blink and Ice Barrier in the process. Nothing short of becoming a 2 second, cc immune, fiery projectile that left dot and a snare on everything it touched, came to mind. I really think the best bet would be to make Scorch baseline again, put a reasonable version of Blazing Speed in t15, and replace it's position in t30 with a new defensive CD. This would take a good deal of balancing so I dont see it happening but it seems to make more sense.

You're correct. It's impossible; hell, I don't even think Ice Barrier should be in that tier of talents due to its general superiority over Temporal Shield.

[Sw1tch]

I'll always disagree with the WE being a cooldown. We already have Icy veins, Frozen Orb, and Alter Time (and whatever trinkets). I'd rather not have to use 4 cooldowns.


The whole point is that frost is not even remotely compelling in its current format without the Water Elemental. It would be the most boring spec in the game without it. Which is why I've been so fervently supporting Water Jet. Because without Water Jet or Freeze (in live format), the Water Elemental really is a "DoT will legs". It stands there and casts waterbolt. Yay.

Save talk about those things for the next expansion. it won't happen, so let's make the most of our current situation by supporting Water Jet and not ruining spec identity by adding more passive effects to our arsenal in place of active ones.

[jtmzac]

I'll always disagree with the WE being a cooldown. We already have Icy veins, Frozen Orb, and Alter Time (and whatever trinkets). I'd rather not have to use 4 cooldowns.


The whole point is that frost is not even remotely compelling in its current format without the Water Elemental. It would be the most boring spec in the game without it. Which is why I've been so fervently supporting Water Jet. Because without Water Jet or Freeze (in live format), the Water Elemental really is a "DoT will legs". It stands there and casts waterbolt. Yay.

Save talk about those things for the next expansion. it won't happen, so let's make the most of our current situation by supporting Water Jet and not ruining spec identity by adding more passive effects to our arsenal in place of active ones.

The problem is the water elemental is barely noticable in pve. I only ever notice it when its out of range when I try to cast freeze and thats easily avoidable in most cases by simply placing it in the right place before the fight.

Removing the water elemental and compensating with a slight buff to all spells and changing freeze to a mage spell and there would be no difference in dps or mechanics.

In its current form the water elemental should be changed to a cd.

I think in reality to keep everyone happy the water elemental actually needs several more spells of its own. A lot more then just freeze and water jet.

If the water elemental is so important to frost mages then it should be represented by the role it plays in our core mechanics. Right now or even with water jet it just seems pointless because it does so little.

[Sw1tch]

Eh, people underestimate how having Freeze/Water Jet completely separate from your character is so awesome. It's not on any self-CD because it's not even my own character. This makes it relatively easy and compelling to set up Frost Bomb blowing up on all things around it (and benefiting from mastery), etc. And if Water Jet comes through even remotely resembling it's 5.1 PTR iteration, it will be relatively challenging to set up to gain maximum efficiency.

Not to mention it's constant dps. For a spec with just about no DoTs (I only use Frost Bomb so I have literally none), I like having some consistent damage.


I should clarify. I like the idea of having no water elemental or it on a cooldown.....provided new mechanics are added to replace it from a "compelling gameplay" standpoint". Take out the water elemental right now and give us an 11% damage bonus and you've just created the most boring specialization in the entire game.

But here's the thing. They won't change it so dramatically mid expansion. Especially considering the perma pet has been around for a while now. Accept that, and move on. Wait till the Beta. For now, fight for Water Jet, because a cooldown pet or no pet at all is not coming.

[Zoros]

It's impossible; hell, I don't even think Ice Barrier should be in that tier of talents due to its general superiority over Temporal Shield.

Probably Blizzard is waiting to solve Blazing Speed issues to improve Temporal Shield.

The easy solution for Blazing Speed, as Mathusula said, is put it on scorch position, scorch return to the fire spec, and create a new shield option instead of Blazing Speed, it could be something related to Mirror Images.

[Deleted]

Still a little bit worried about the legendary meta-gems.
"If you've been diligent about helping Wrathion and continue to do so, your reward in 5.2 is going to be a legendary meta-gem that can go in any helmet."

I really hope we'll get an additional meta-socket, otherwise it'll be a hard decision for fire...