Is the concept of raiding still suitable for an age of fluctuating players?

[Deleted]

I pose this question to you guys as an increasing number of recent MMOs have avoided adding raid-content (namingly GW2 and TESO)

I guess it makes sense to a point. Classic raiding requires a relatively tightly nit group and stable player participation in order to be fun and rewarding.

However the increase in F2P games makes it much easier for people to pick up....but also to leave the game when bored. WoW has issues with this too, despite having subscriptions, where people sub for a few months after new content, only to leave again a while later.

With this type of volatile player behavior the classic raid concept seems to become harder and harder to sell.

Subjectively speaking it also seems as if MMO players in general are less and less willing to submit to regular raiding schedules and committed guilds.

So what do you think? Is the classic raid model outdated?

Does there need to be a more flexible endgame concept in place?

Edit: This is in the Video Games forums and not directly about WoW.

[Bearshield]

Players "fluctuate" because WoW is a 9 year old game that isn't doing anything new and exciting anymore. The game is almost exclusively focused on end game raiding and once you've cleared the content a few times, it gets boring to log in and do the same thing every day. Even leveling alts is less appealing for many of us. It's not about free to play vs pay to play, it's about lack of things to do in a game that's getting stale.

Raiding is a good activity in these kind of games, but it can't be the only thing there is to do. Blizzard's problem this expansion is they are not continuously adding new content. It doesn't have to be a big raid every patch, but it should at least be new dungeons with current tier appropriate loot or a single boss raid dungeon like Ony or Mag. (new though, not recycled) Hell even the last batch of dailies we got were worthless if you raid at all.

[Faroth]

I think it's still suitable, but there's a problem with the direction MMOs have been developing.

Classic raiding requires a relatively tightly nit group and stable player participation in order to be fun and rewarding.

In another thread, someone made the following claim: People with friends in an MMO are the minority.

And I think that about sums it up. MMORPGs have declined, which were built very much as social games. They've been replaced with the MMO which supports and even rewards antisocial behavior for the sake of more subscribers and more money.

Everything's designed to be quick and progress in some way or another quickly. You essentially have games that are designed in a way that decreases the chance and need of interacting with others, which is how you once upon a time built in-game friendships.

[isadorr]

People think up new ways to mention raiding. It is too hard or normals are too hard, or LFR is too easy, etc.

[Chickat]

They should make normal mode hard mode, heroic modes elite mode,and add another tier thats inbetween lfr and current normal and call it normal. Then make lfr alot faster and remove most of the trash if its really just a gearing method.

Heroic dungeons would reward item level 100
Lfr would reward 110
normal would reward 118
hard would reward 128
and elite would reward 140

You would only need an average item level of 110 to do the next tiers hard mode.

[Hulari]

I don't think raiding is a good option for end-game in it's current state. Very little exploration, very little replay value. It's the same thing, over and over and over. I think the major reason people continue to raid is the competition that it provides.

I've been looking for an MMO recently that gets rid of this competition aspect (the race, killing it first) and brings back the exploration and replay value that an end-game should have.

Personally my ideal end-game for an MMO would be scaled, randomly generated dungeon crawls. Being able to enter a dungeon with anything from 3 to 10 of my friends or guildies. Whenever you go in everything inside is randomly generated. The amount of floors, the amount of passages and the amount of random rare groups. The only thing that stays the same is the base story, aesthetics and bosses.

That in my opinion would bring back the fun end-game with immersion and exploration giving you replay value to go back time and time again. Missing a couple of friends? Doesn't matter because they will scale to the amount of players meaning less hassle of "Jim and Dave didn't turn up!"

[The Casualty]

So what do you think? Is the classic raid model outdated?

Does there need to be a more flexible endgame concept in place?

I think that it really depends on what sort of demographic you are looking for.

I enjoyed the end game content model of Everquest, Final Fantasy XI, and World of Warcraft. When I was in college and slightly after when I was single and first entering my career field, I had plenty of time to participate and keep active in the online world gaming communities. Were I to fit into that demographic to this day, I'm sure I would want a similar experience.

However, I am now have a family of my own, I focus on more RL activities and have more responsibilities at work. I don't fit into that same model, which is one of the reasons I parted with WoW during Cataclysm - I was a raider who could no longer raid.

If the gaming company wants my money, they are going to have to cater to my playing style. I might be able to play every night, but the minute I have to guarantee that I am going to be there, I'm in trouble.

That said, I'm okay that WoW isn't for me anymore. I don't want a game to pander to everyone and please no one.

That said, after years of playing these game types, I do feel that the level grind end game based content is getting a little long in the tooth. I do hope that there is innovation in the market for players of all types.

[ddsad2212]

Personally I would prefer it to be taken over by 5 mans. Similar to the Gw2 concept, just executed better

[The Casualty]

Personally my ideal end-game for an MMO would be scaled, randomly generated dungeon crawls. Being able to enter a dungeon with anything from 3 to 10 of my friends or guildies. Whenever you go in everything inside is randomly generated. The amount of floors, the amount of passages and the amount of random rare groups. The only thing that stays the same is the base story, aesthetics and bosses.

That in my opinion would bring back the fun end-game with immersion and exploration giving you replay value to go back time and time again. Missing a couple of friends? Doesn't matter because they will scale to the amount of players meaning less hassle of "Jim and Dave didn't turn up!"

That sounds fantastic.

[Afrospinach]

Raiding ticks a lot of boxes, well structured, synchronised activity but I don't think it is the be all end all. If we loosely define casual content as something that does not expressly demand a schedule then we have seen something like this in wow before. Opening the gates to AQ and a couple of other events like it have been inherently casual friendly. I think this idea could be expanded upon greatly as an addition to raiding.

Another possibility that comes to mind is something more akin to GW2 quests or rifts, where by there is some end game level event happening in the world sort of like the Naxx event, would go a long way to making the rest of those places you never visit feel a little relevant again, CRZ complicates this now though.

I do hope they think of something that is supposed to co exist with raiding rather than overlap with it though. The current method of smudging and fudging the two together is genuinely making a lot of people unhappy, as I have said before I do LFR because it is rewarding but it is a pretty lukewarm diet coke type experience.

Personally I would prefer it to be taken over by 5 mans. Similar to the Gw2 concept, just executed better

It is just sitting there right in front of them and they just never seem to want to do anything substantial with it.

[Redblade]

Blizzard has bastardized the concept to a point where it's no longer rewarding nor motivating due to all the gradual nerfs and the whole concept of LFR. I do think it's still just as viable if done right though, newer games just doesn't make proper raids and between the issues I mentioned and the server structure of WoW (or lack of free transfers) leaves Rift and they kinda screwed up their reward system with the expansion.

[barackopala]

The question shouldn't be asked on mmo-c, WoW-centric comunity which tends to go towards raid loving.

[Hulari]

That sounds fantastic.

It's a concept I've been toying with and jotting down in a notepad for the past 18-20 months. All I need to do is win the Euro-Millions to get some funding!

[Edge-]

There actually less long-term fluctuation in F2P games than you would think. They have the same kind of boom/busts as the retail subscription base MMO's in recent years, with huge initial populations that eventually settle down on a smaller core group of dedicated players.

You're still going to get a certain level of turnover due to the nature of the business model (new players coming in to try it, old player vacationing to other games before coming back), but from everything I know, the long-term playerbases are surprisingly stable once it gets established.

So depending on how the raiding system is designed, yes, it is still suitable for the current age of MMO's.

[Lethey Alexandros]

Most of what has been described here is content being placed into the new Final fantasy 14 reboot.

Fates - events like the rifts in rift or the open world events in gw2. They range in level and difficulty and have a bit more variety. The offer rewards as well in the form of money, exp, and items.

Hunting logs - A side path to leveling that is different for every class. requires you to go out and kill various monsters in the different regions and awards exp and money

dungeons - their take on dungeons only requirs 4 party members but also requires you to find items to access different areas or floors

raids - the raid model they have for ff14 is not too much different than their dungeon model in additon to 7 or more people depending on the raid.

The list of things included goes on but those are just a few of the things that caught my eye about the revamp.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

However, I am now have a family of my own, I focus on more RL activities and have more responsibilities at work. I don't fit into that same model, which is one of the reasons I parted with WoW during Cataclysm - I was a raider who could no longer raid.

If the gaming company wants my money, they are going to have to cater to my playing style. I might be able to play every night, but the minute I have to guarantee that I am going to be there, I'm in trouble.

As the MMO audience ages (which it is - the average age of MMO gamers continues to trickle up) more and more people will be in this position. And since this demographic places a premium on time and tends to have more disposable income, they are an excellent target group for f2p models that need whales to support it. Contrast this to sub models which target and rely upon a steady base of hardcore gamers who tend to have time in abundance.

Basically, one of the major reasons for the change in the market is the recognition that an aging demographic is easier to monetize with cash shops than flat fees that require commitment. And this trickles over to content design as well (quick and accessible rather than time-consuming and exclusive).

[Dilbon]

I'd like DAoC-style non-instanced raiding where you just take random ~50 guys and go.

[Bearshield]

As the MMO audience ages (which it is - the average age of MMO gamers continues to trickle up) more and more people will be in this position. And since this demographic places a premium on time and tends to have more disposable income, they are an excellent target group for f2p models that need whales to support it. Contrast this to sub models which target and rely upon a steady base of hardcore gamers who tend to have time in abundance.

Basically, one of the major reasons for the change in the market is the recognition that an aging demographic is easier to monetize with cash shops than flat fees that require commitment. And this trickles over to content design as well (quick and accessible rather than time-consuming and exclusive).

I disagree with this. I'm 32, married with a child and have been playing MMORPG's since Asheron's Call. I am a part of the "aging demographic" of MMORPG'ers, and I find the idea that because some people no longer wish to/can not dedicate more than a couple hours a week to gaming that time vs rewards needs to be reevaluated insulting. MMORPG's have always been a timesink. It has always been a world where you get out of it what you put into it and that's how it should stay.

I have never raided more than 3-4 nights a week, usually 3 hour raid nights and I don't feel like the game owes me something because I'm unable/unwilling to commit to the same schedule that the hardcore raiders who put in 4-5 hour nights 5-7 days a week. Why should they be punished because they choose to use their time differently than me? Why should I be punished because someone else is unable/unwilling to even put in the amount of time that I do? If you want instant gratification, there are plenty of single player games out there that provide that and with less and less time commitment these days. The MMORPG genre needs to remain what it was designed to be because every time a developer caters to the notion of players not wanting to commit extensive amounts of time to the game, we end up with less and less to do in the game and then everyone loses.

[Redblade]

I have never raided more than 3-4 nights a week, usually 3 hour raid nights and I don't feel like the game owes me something because I'm unable/unwilling to commit to the same schedule that the hardcore raiders who put in 4-5 hour nights 5-7 days a week. Why should they be punished because they choose to use their time differently than me? Why should I be punished because someone else is unable/unwilling to even put in the amount of time that I do? If you want instant gratification, there are plenty of single player games out there that provide that and with less and less time commitment these days. The MMORPG genre needs to remain what it was designed to be because every time a developer caters to the notion of players not wanting to commit extensive amounts of time to the game, we end up with less and less to do in the game and then everyone loses.

Precisely this, the notion that all content has be be for everyone and to be seen by everyone is ridiculous.

[isadorr]

I disagree with this. I'm 32, married with a child and have been playing MMORPG's since Asheron's Call. I am a part of the "aging demographic" of MMORPG'ers, and I find the idea that because some people no longer wish to/can not dedicate more than a couple hours a week to gaming that time vs rewards needs to be reevaluated insulting. MMORPG's have always been a timesink. It has always been a world where you get out of it what you put into it and that's how it should stay.

I have never raided more than 3-4 nights a week, usually 3 hour raid nights and I don't feel like the game owes me something because I'm unable/unwilling to commit to the same schedule that the hardcore raiders who put in 4-5 hour nights 5-7 days a week. Why should they be punished because they choose to use their time differently than me? Why should I be punished because someone else is unable/unwilling to even put in the amount of time that I do? If you want instant gratification, there are plenty of single player games out there that provide that and with less and less time commitment these days. The MMORPG genre needs to remain what it was designed to be because every time a developer caters to the notion of players not wanting to commit extensive amounts of time to the game, we end up with less and less to do in the game and then everyone loses.

Well said, i find it hilarious that people expect things just because they play the game. Imagine logging into BF3 and demanding the best of everything because golly gee beav, that guy has neat looking guns and armor, and i just paid you money and stuff, i want some /pout.