Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Deleted]

Can you tell example where in hc modes one mistake results in wipe.

[jax]

Stone dogs, tank messes up taunt, bad explosion on herioc = 1/2 raid dead. Normal mode you dropa tranq and continue on.
Feng, you mess up and not kill the adds before they reach him he heals and you hit enrage, no such mechanic on normal.
Garjal, you fail to kill the 3 big adds in spirit realm before tank has to go back up its a wipe.
Spirit kings... lol theres 10 things that if you mess up you wipe
Elegon, if the big add dies inside the barrier its instant death, normal mode you blow a tranq and keep rolling.

There are tons more but I hope you get the idea.

Were you asking because you dont know these things or because you wanted to argue that one mistake doesnt kill you?

[Deleted]

Can the mods just start closing any thread that pops up about 10s and 25s?

I'm seriously sick of the complaining from the 25 side. People just need to shut the fuck and play what they want; or shut the fuck up and don't. You don't need incentives, you don't need bonuses for turning up to a raid your OFFICERS organised just because you're 25; if you're not raiding 25 already, you obviously aren't the target player of that format, despite how much you yell otherwise that 10s ruined your game - y'know, cause there are a good number of successful 25 guilds out there, and I'm sure plenty of successful 10s on your server who are "forced" into 10. Here's a novel idea: merge guilds like we used to in TBC.

Otherwise, just shut up.

[Deleted]

I can't agree with LFR = Raiding. It's not. It's a 25 man normal dungeon, at best.

Well that is really strange. Could you explain me why Looking For Dungeons puts me in a 5man dungeon, and Looking For Raid puts me in a 25man raid? Could you explain me why there is no 5man dungeon of MSV, HoF, and ToeS? Could you explain me why Blizzard considers LFR a raid? Could you explain to me LFR drops the very same loot, but lower ilvl, as Normal and Heroic raid?

[Deleted]

I am not familiar with heroic mechanisms.

[Chaochamp]

Can the mods just start closing any thread that pops up about 10s and 25s?

I'm seriously sick of the complaining from the 25 side. People just need to shut the fuck and play what they want; or shut the fuck up and don't. You don't need incentives, you don't need bonuses for turning up to a raid your OFFICERS organised just because you're 25; if you're not raiding 25 already, you obviously aren't the target player of that format, despite how much you yell otherwise that 10s ruined your game - y'know, cause there are a good number of successful 25 guilds out there, and I'm sure plenty of successful 10s on your server who are "forced" into 10. Here's a novel idea: merge guilds like we used to in TBC.

Otherwise, just shut up.

Actually, yes you do need incentive. Once the incentive was removed we saw a rapid decline in 25 man guilds, mine being one of them. How about you, good sir, shut up.

Well that is really strange. Could you explain me why Looking For Dungeons puts me in a 5man dungeon, and Looking For Raid puts me in a 25man raid? Could you explain me why there is no 5man dungeon of MSV, HoF, and ToeS? Could you explain me why Blizzard considers LFR a raid? Could you explain to me LFR drops the very same loot, but lower ilvl, as Normal and Heroic raid?

Because it's not. It's a 25 man dungeon. They can call it a raid whenever they want, but until organization, communication, execution, reliability, skill and all the other things required in a real raid is required in LFR, it is not a raid. It is simply a bigger dungeon, with purple loot.

Blizzard calls it a raid so people can feel happy about themselves.

[Chaochamp]

Seeing as LFR means "Looking for Raid", you can "disagree" all you want.. You're wrong

Perhaps in a literal sense but not in a meaningful sense, for the reasons I described in my previous post.

[MoanaLisa]

Actually, yes you do need incentive. Once the incentive was removed we saw a rapid decline in 25 man guilds, mine being one of them. How about you, good sir, shut up.

There's a fine line between creating an incentive and creating something that people feel forced to do. Blizzard wants to do the former and avoid the latter.

Minus the aggression, I'm more or less in agreement with Valarius that if people want to raid 25's then it's up to them to set that up for themselves. Sadly, because I prefer 25's myself, when all things are more or less equal, most people prefer 10's. If they didn't, then 25's wouldn't be in the state they're in at the moment.

There doesn't really need to be an argument or sides in this at all. If there was some vast pool of people who wanted to raid at 25's then it would be simple enough. There isn't.

[schwank05]

They could just get rid of 10 man's all together and then it would change from there being 100+ guilds on a server to around 20 or so. Then people would just merge and what not and go for all out 25's

[Chaochamp]

There's a fine line between creating an incentive and creating something that people feel forced to do. Blizzard wants to do the former and avoid the latter.

And it's Blizzard's, not the player's job to fine that sweet spot. In the end, it's really all of their fault.

[MoanaLisa]

Perhaps in a literal sense but not in a meaningful sense, for the reasons I described in my previous post.

You're simply using your own definition of what is a raid and what isn't. It's an opinion. Blizzard disagrees. It's their game.

[Chaochamp]

So Blizzard needs to force people before they start to raid 25's?
If you need to force people to do something, that means they don't want it.

That or they need to just remove it altogether. It's obviously an incredible waste of development time to make and tune 25 mans for such a small group of people.

No matter what you believe, it's still a raid.
Organization, communication, execution and the rest of that nonsense has nothing to do with it being a raid or not.
It has 5+ people, which makes it a raid.

You only call it a dungeon because you can feel happy about yourself.

Again, literal but not meaningful. This is simply something that we will not agree on, so I'll leave it at that.

[MoanaLisa]

And it's Blizzard's, not the player's job to fine that sweet spot. In the end, it's really all of their fault.

You're blaming Blizzard because people made a choice that you don't like. I don't buy that logic and neither should anyone else.

[Chaochamp]

You're blaming Blizzard because people made a choice that you don't like. I don't buy that logic and neither should anyone else.

Pretty much. Is that not the point of arguing in general?

[Deleted]

Because it's not. It's a 25 man dungeon. They can call it a raid whenever they want, but until organization, communication, execution, reliability, skill and all the other things required in a real raid is required in LFR, it is not a raid. It is simply a bigger dungeon, with purple loot.

Blizzard calls it a raid so people can feel happy about themselves.

Ah OK, so now the definition of raid is related to the difficulty. It gets funnier every post. What is challenge mode dungeons? Shall we rename those to raid? What were TBC dungeons such as MgT? Raid or dungeon?

Or maybe, just maybe, you just need to accept there's 3 difficulties in dungeons and raiding nowadays:

Dungeons -> Normal, Heroic, Challenge Mode.
Raids -> Looking For Raid, Normal, Heroic.

[Chaochamp]

Ah OK, so now the definition of raid is related to the difficulty. It gets funnier every post. What is challenge mode dungeons? Shall we rename those to raid? What were TBC dungeons such as MgT? Raid or dungeon?

Or maybe, just maybe, you just need to accept there's 3 difficulties in dungeons and raiding nowadays:

Dungeons -> Normal, Heroic, Challenge Mode.
Raids -> Looking For Raid, Normal, Heroic.

The entire point of this argument was that LFR raiding equates to normal raiding, and using LFR statistics to boost however many people are raiding.

LFR, fundamentally, is different from its counterpart regular raid. The only three things that remain consistent are the bosses' models/names, and the scenery. Every single other aspect has been changed to dumb down the content for a PuG. While I still feel that LFR != Raiding, I understand the viewpoint of those who do.

With that said, I don't agree that you can look at WotLK's raiding numbers and fairly compare them with the Drangonsoul+LFR numbers to determine if the WotLK system worked worse than the Cataclysm system.

[venie]

I do agree blizzard has made mistakes with how theyve turned 25 man raids, they need to go back to the ICC style of raids & loot, 10 mans are casual and cakewalk. 25's are for more hardcore players, theres nothing else to say, its just very simply put out there as most 25 man hm players know.

[MrHappy]

25 should not feel superior to 10's via exclusive rewards. Current solution is i think is ideal. The RATE at which you can get better gear is greater in 25 vs 10 that way the intensives are there but does not make 10's feel left out. 2-4 weeks extra of running 10's to get same gear as 25 is enough to keep 25 going and possilby get more. Exclusivity in wow is never a good thing

[phyx]

There's a fine line between creating an incentive and creating something that people feel forced to do. Blizzard wants to do the former and avoid the latter.

Minus the aggression, I'm more or less in agreement with Valarius that if people want to raid 25's then it's up to them to set that up for themselves. Sadly, because I prefer 25's myself, when all things are more or less equal, most people prefer 10's. If they didn't, then 25's wouldn't be in the state they're in at the moment.

There doesn't really need to be an argument or sides in this at all. If there was some vast pool of people who wanted to raid at 25's then it would be simple enough. There isn't.

There is a copious amount of generalization in your post, and things are never that simple. There, in fact are a lot of people that want to raid 25's. Now we can enter a 10v25 debate for the millionth time and we will come to no conclusion, but the fact is, it's A LOT harder to recruit for 25's, they are a lot harder to manage (both in and out of the raid) and they are prone to dwindling to 10s when you can't find more competent people which happens a lot. So, it's just easier to do it on 10.

Thunderforged gear won't do literally anything. Blizzard knows what they have to do to make 25s attractive again (not forcing people to raid them, just make them worthwhile) - they have to do something that 10man raiders just won't like. There lies the only solution. But they won't because 90% of all guilds are 10s.
Either that or they can shut down 25s because there won't be enough guilds to even do them. If/when that happens, that day will be very sad in WoWs history and will lead to more players leaving. People are forgeting that 25man guilds don't only have 30 people that raid. Friends, family are in there also, playing with people they know. They are the true pillars of community. Deleting or ignoring 25s could lead to a chain reaction making at least part of that number quitting. You can fit few 10s into one proper 25man guild.

[Chaochamp]

25 should not feel superior to 10's via exclusive rewards. Current solution is i think is ideal. The RATE at which you can get better gear is greater in 25 vs 10 that way the intensives are there but does not make 10's feel left out. 2-4 weeks extra of running 10's to get same gear as 25 is enough to keep 25 going and possilby get more. Exclusivity in wow is never a good thing

The "current solution" has dwindled down the 25 man population to minuscule amounts. It's obviously not enough.