Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[chipsky]

Of course it shouldn't. That's completely nonsensical, to an absurd degree. People don't join, run or manage 3 ten mans, they join, run or manage one 25 or one 10 man.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 06:58 PM ----------



LFR is not raiding by any sensible definition. When you push a button, teleport to an instance with a bunch of random people, go afk or smash random buttons for less than an hour to collect loot, you're not raiding. Sorry, but you're just not.

You don't *want* that to be raiding, but it is. To be sure, you don't like the evolution, but that won't keep it from evolving.

[manniefaces]

People post as if 25 man raiding dying is a bad thing. It had its days in the sun as did 40 mans but those days have passed. The sun has set on 25 man raiding and it needs to go the way of 40 mans. Perhaps with raiding being exclusively 10 mans a lot of QQ will fade, oh yeah probably not but let them die already.

[Deleted]

You don't *want* that to be raiding, but it is. To be sure, you don't like the evolution, but that won't keep it from evolving.

No, I don't care what you call it. Call it raiding if you want, it makes no difference to me or the argument. You're just derailing the issue, which is that LFR is a fundamentally different thing from what "raiding" was in vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Back then "raiding" was a group activity you did as a team, a team you built over an extended period of time, got to know well and practiced with. LFR is essentially solo play you happen to do with some random people in the same zone.

[Deleted]

You're not 25 players, you're one player.

We aren't looking at one player, we are looking at groups of players.

[Deleted]

People post as if 25 man raiding dying is a bad thing. It had its days in the sun as did 40 mans but those days have passed. The sun has set on 25 man raiding and it needs to go the way of 40 mans. Perhaps with raiding being exclusively 10 mans a lot of QQ will fade, oh yeah probably not but let them die already.

I think we need 5 man and solo modes for raids. Why should I need to get 9 idiots rather than just my 2-3 great friends?

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:07 PM ----------

We aren't looking at one player, we are looking at groups of players.

I don't know who "we" are. But you can look at groups of players all you want, it's just completely pointless and irrelevant to do that.

[Ragedaug]

Look guys. You cannot deny that 25's take a higher logistical effort form both raiders, officers, people farming mats, etc.

Just to pick at hairs...


25's take a higher logistical effort from:
Raiders: False
Officers: True
People Farming Mats (see below)
- - Officers farming mats: Often True
- - Raiders farming mats: Always False

[chipsky]

XX-player raids were never a good in the first place... the idea that you need a specific number of people to compete against a foe had its day and it wasn't a good day.

As we're seeing with quest/daily objective "bosses", the difficulty of the encounter should scale with the number of people present. When I'm killing X-boss and another person joins the battle, the boss health increases.

This is part of Blizzards quiet experiment.

DPS, Healers, Tanks... terrible restrictions that have created animosity and play-styles that are only conditionally entertaining.

[Deleted]

I think we need 5 man and solo modes for raids. Why should I need to get 9 idiots rather than just my 2-3 great friends?

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:07 PM ----------



I don't know who "we" are. But you can look at groups of players all you want, it's just completely pointless and irrelevant to do that.

No, it';s the only thing that occurs when you compare one group size with another group size.

If you want to look at it from the POV of one player, unless you heal or raid lead, 10 and 25 man are identical in every way. Do rotation, move out of shit, win. If you heal, theres slightly more organisation in 25 man, and if you raid lead you have a nightmare of extra cat herding in 25 versus 10.

[chipsky]

No, I don't care what you call it. Call it raiding if you want, it makes no difference to me or the argument. You're just derailing the issue, which is that LFR is a fundamentally different thing from what "raiding" was in vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Back then "raiding" was a group activity you did as a team, a team you built over an extended period of time, got to know well and practiced with. LFR is essentially solo play you happen to do with some random people in the same zone.

Not derailing, just disagreeing with your semantic issue. To that point, sure they're different... evolution of the game. Just like it different from "raiding" in everquest. 20-years of doing it wrong, doesn't make it right.

[Deleted]

If you want to look at it from the POV of one player, unless you heal or raid lead, 10 and 25 man are identical in every way. Do rotation, move out of shit, win. If you heal, theres slightly more organisation in 25 man, and if you raid lead you have a nightmare of extra cat herding in 25 versus 10.

No wonder you couldn't manage to do 25 man raiding. There's a lot more to it than that.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:12 PM ----------

Not derailing, just disagreeing with your semantic issue. To that point, sure they're different... evolution of the game. Just like it different from "raiding" in everquest. 20-years of doing it wrong, doesn't make it right.

So if this is some great evolution, why are sub numbers not skyrocketing from these great new innovations?

[Ragedaug]

I think we need 5 man and solo modes for raids. Why should I need to get 9 idiots rather than just my 2-3 great friends?

Vanilla simulated 5 man raiding with the end game dungeons. They were largely unused. BC attempted to simulate the difficult of raiding in 5 man heroics. A lot of people liked BC heroics, but groups could be tough to get together, and Blizzard found that more players used them the more they out geared them. The current iteration is "challenge mode" to provide a 5 man end game experience. Brawler's Guild is the solo end game experience, though it would be interesting to know how many players would attempt that type of challenge in a progressive raid boss & trash type environment.

[Deleted]

Since 2 mio people do lfr and only like 600.000-750.000 do normal/heroic raiding lets go with Injin and just abolish normal/heroic raiding. All hail LFR the only "raiding" format left standing... Who needs social raiding in an mmo anyways?

[chipsky]

No wonder you couldn't manage to do 25 man raiding. There's a lot more to it than that.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:12 PM ----------



So if this is some great evolution, why are sub numbers not skyrocketing from these great new innovations?

Who said that would happen in either circumstance? That's a strawman. This game is long in the tooth and no "great innovation" can counteract that. What you fail to realize is that the current changes and innovations are *retaining* those who would have left already. Growth of any significance or duration at this point is a pipe dream.

[Deleted]

Vanilla simulated 5 man raiding with the end game dungeons. They were largely unused. BC attempted to simulate the difficult of raiding in 5 man heroics. A lot of people liked BC heroics, but groups could be tough to get together, and Blizzard found that more players used them the more they out geared them. The current iteration is "challenge mode" to provide a 5 man end game experience. Brawler's Guild is the solo end game experience, though it would be interesting to know how many players would attempt that type of challenge in a progressive raid boss & trash type environment.

Yeah, I don't care about that. I want to get the same gear and achievements with my 2 buddies. I'm being forced to raid because the gear from current 5 mans is much worse, so I have to do 10 mans or LFR. There's a lot more personal responsibility involved in 3 mans anyway, and if you have 10x 3 man groups then the logistical effort is equivalent to 25 man raiding overall.

[Ragedaug]

No wonder you couldn't manage to do 25 man raiding. There's a lot more to it than that.

Like what for example? I have less responsibilities and less to keep track of in every 25 man raiding guild I was in versus every 10 man guild I've been in.

So if this is some great evolution, why are sub numbers not skyrocketing from these great new innovations?

Old game is old? Farming/grinding is designed to keep players subbed, but after a time people realize they aren't having so much "fun" as they are just spending time "farming/grinding".

When you look at the fact that even at raiding's peak, only 15% of the player base did it, I think raiders put too much stock in the the quality of the raid being what's killing the game.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:22 PM ----------

Yeah, I don't care about that. I want to get the same gear and achievements with my 2 buddies. I'm being forced to raid because the gear from current 5 mans is much worse, so I have to do 10 mans or LFR. There's a lot more personal responsibility involved in 3 mans anyway, and if you have 10x 3 man groups then the logistical effort is equivalent to 25 man raiding overall.

Ok...I guess. Good luck with that.

[Deleted]

Who said that would happen in either circumstance? That's a strawman. This game is long in the tooth and no "great innovation" can counteract that. What you fail to realize is that the current changes and innovations are *retaining* those who would have left already. Growth of any significance or duration at this point is a pipe dream.

EVE has been around longer than WoW and has been constantly growing, the gamer market as a whole is growing, Blizzard makes you buy a brand new box every year or two for WoW. I fail to see any reason why the subs would not be skyrocketing if this new model is in fact such a great improvement.

[Ragedaug]

EVE has been around longer than WoW and has been constantly growing, the gamer market as a whole is growing, Blizzard makes you buy a brand new box every year or two for WoW. I fail to see any reason why the subs would not be skyrocketing if this new model is in fact such a great improvement.

Then you aren't looking hard enough. I can only suggest to "look harder".

[gamingmuscle]

No, I don't care what you call it. Call it raiding if you want, it makes no difference to me or the argument. You're just derailing the issue, which is that LFR is a fundamentally different thing from what "raiding" was in vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Back then "raiding" was a group activity you did as a team, a team you built over an extended period of time, got to know well and practiced with. LFR is essentially solo play you happen to do with some random people in the same zone.

Sorry, but no. I don't consider LFR to be "serious" raiding but it is still very much raiding. Hell in some sense it is just like raiding in vanilla...half the raid can AFK and be carried by the rest.

By your definition pugging any raid ever wasn't raiding either (not an established team with a history together)....Raiding is doing content that involves a group of people that is a multiple of 5 (N greater than 1) .

[Deleted]

Sorry, but no. I don't consider LFR to be "serious" raiding but it is still very much raiding. Hell in some sense it is just like raiding in vanilla...half the raid can AFK and be carried by the rest.

Call it what you want, it makes no difference. The reality is that using the definition of "raiding" that was used in vanilla, TBC and WotLK, the number of people "raiding" has fallen some 30%. You can redefine "raiding" to include an activity that's new and fundamentally different just to get those numbers up, but all you're really doing is dodging the issue and fudging the numbers.

By your definition pugging any raid ever wasn't raiding either (not an established team with a history together)....Raiding is doing content that involves a group of people that is a multiple of 5 (N greater than 1) .

Pugging is not raiding, not in the sense I mean when I say "raiding".

[chipsky]

EVE has been around longer than WoW and has been constantly growing, the gamer market as a whole is growing, Blizzard makes you buy a brand new box every year or two for WoW. I fail to see any reason why the subs would not be skyrocketing if this new model is in fact such a great improvement.

You're over-simplifying a complex system... trying to connect dots which are almost wholly unrelated. EVE Online has no relationship to Warcraft besides being in the genre. They have a minimal subscriber base that took 8-years to exceed 400k. Their grow is attributable to foreign market expansion to Japan, not a game innovation.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:41 PM ----------

Hell in some sense it is just like raiding in vanilla...half the raid can AFK and be carried by the rest.

You pretty much nailed Vanilla raiding. I get a chuckle out of old-school raiders longing for those raid while lamenting the LFR system. It was a joke.