Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Raelbo]

You can't say that? There are more factors here than just preference and 10 mans are obviously the better choice and sometimes the only choice because people rather take the easier path than choose for a preference.

Choosing to take the easier (logistic, non game-related) path is the result of a preference for doing so.

Rewards are never going to change this unless we go back to WotLK like they did in Asia.

The WotLK 10/25 was fundamentally flawed. It formed that way because of historical reasons, so I don't blame Blizzard for that model. But with hindsight, moving back to that model would be silly.

So the only option is to have one raidsize only and after much discussing here it looks like 15 man is the best option.

Personally I don't think your view represents the majority of the WoW playerbase. I believe the 15 man option was conceived in the interests of the 25 man community and represents the interests of those raiding 25 man, or who are stuck in 10 mans because they cannot find a 25 man.

It is, IMO a pretty horrible compromise because it guarantees that you will please neither the 10 man nor the 25 man community (although the 25 man community will feel better than it would being forced into 10 man).

Nay, the best option is to keep 10 and 25 man pretty similar to what they are now. Add a few small incentives to 25 man to counter for the logistics, sure. But if insufficient people are prepared to go to the effort of doing 25 man, then clearly most of them are not as passionate about the format as they claim and the 25 man format does not deserve to survive. That being said, as long as there is still some interest in 25 man raiding, I support Blizzard keeping it alive.

[Deleted]

I think they shouldn't care about 25 mans. If players want to do it because they enjoy it even if it isn't more rewarding than 10man then let them do. If enough players do it Blizz can continue producing 25 versions. If not, they should just stop making them. Simple as that. If noone wants it why to fight for it? Also it isn't just about logistics. Many of the players don't even have the computer power to do 25 man raid. I had the same problem just a month ago, before I bought new computer. ~3-4 fps under hero+every cd by every raid member. Good luck with it..

[Mosotti]

People should prefer 25man for a more epic experience, not a silly tabard or a stupid pet. But I think people like that are not too many in the game anymore...

25man raiding begun to die just as soon as raids became available in 10man also. From there it just went downhill. It became increasingly harder to find people for 25 man, because "you can do it 10 man". And as I remember there was a difference in gear back then, but that was shit compared with the problems in organizing and maintaining a 25 man pool. I remember at the beginning of WLotK, my guild had this application forum with lots of applications every week, by the end of the expansion there would be even months without any applications... And it was not a problem of people leaving the game, it was a problem of people going the easy way.

I think the most important measure to revive 25man raiding is to make it easier to find people for it. How can that be made, I have no idea. I don't think it's possible in the current setup, with dying servers and whatnot. Maybe some cross-server guild system or something

[Kralljin]

The WotLK 10/25 was fundamentally flawed. It formed that way because of historical reasons, so I don't blame Blizzard for that model. But with hindsight, moving back to that model would be silly.

Technically they partially stepped back to this model, but the occurence is less frequent since Thunderforged items aren't 100% drops.

[Raelbo]

They were not promoting 25's because 25's already excisted and when 10 mans were introduced they never had to promote 25's. They had to promote 10's for obvious reasons and by doing that they ruined the 25's community or whatever you want to call it.

Ok, yes, you're right. They promoted 10 mans.

But it misses the point, because in the original context, the assertion was that Blizzard are giving preferential treatment to 10 mans, which they are not. Promoting 10 mans merely levelled the playing field. They never promoted them over 25 mans

---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 12:55 PM ----------

Technically they stepped back to this model, but the occurence is less frequent since Thunderforged items aren't 100% drops.

I beg to differ. There is a world of difference between offering an easier path to certain rewards and offering an exclusive path to those rewards.

There is nothing you can't get by raiding 10 man that you can only get raiding 25 man.

[Talen]

That you still believe people simply prefer 10 mans because of the raidsize... But keep defending your precious 10 man raidsize.

I, for one, DO believe people prefer 10s due to raid size......and everything that comes with it.

10s are about the right size for most players circle of friends.
10s require only a little more logistical work than 5s....especially if it is made up of your friends
10s are easier to run and manage, making them more attractive to raid leaders...meaning more 10s form up and it is much easier to find a group on the same schedule
10s require less bandwidth and PC resources
10s, for many, present a feeling of greater personal impact and responsibility preferable to the "only one of many" feel of 25s
10s offer greater visual clarity of the encounter
10s, to many, offer the same challenge, prestige, loot as 25s

So yes....I do think many players prefer 10s because of the raidsize.

Technically they partially stepped back to this model, but the occurence is less frequent since Thunderforged items aren't 100% drops.

Technically, they haven't. The Thunderforged system....as currently described...is identical to the current raid loot system.

10s and 25s get the same gear but 25s will tend to gear faster.

EJL

[Alvito]

I did make a mistake with saying that. But grats on still being an idiot after hundreds of threads and more than a year of discussing this issue. That you still believe people simply prefer 10 mans because of the raidsize... But keep defending your precious 10 man raidsize.

Seeing how they were already bribing 25 man raids with slightly more loot and are now giving them a better chance at better loot then it is very clear ppl do not want to do 25s. If ppl really wanted to do them then they would be doing them. For the ppl that say they cannot find one, well stop being lazy and bitching and make one or look harder. Ppl acting elitist, acting like they are the majority and then somehow trying to be the underdog vs the 10 man raiders are beyond laughable.

[Slant]

If ppl really wanted to do 25 mans then they would. The fact that even with a little extra loot before and now a chance at higher lvl gear more often screams that Blizzard knows ppl don't want to yet it is being forced onto the game. Often mechanics are easier due to flexibility of roles or ability to swap specs fight to fight with a 25. This is yet another one of their unneeded fixes and stupid over reactions to the ppl that want to hide in a group of 25 for higher loot chances.

Hi. I'm in a 25man guild with a couple of server firsts. We do want to raid 25, so we do. And you know what, we feel like we're kicked in the ass repeatedly since Cataclysm. And we're pretty much still being kicked although we're already down. During Cataclysm it was sheer luck and proper planning that we got our last first kill, because encounters were tuned in favor of 10 mans, there is slim chance we'll ever be able to compete on our server for first kills again, since most people decided 10 man was the way to go to get that feat of strength. We're one of only two guilds left. The other is horde. Our server used to have 2-3 horde 25 man guilds and 5-6 competing alliance guilds for the 25 man format. When asked, most people said they wanted to compete and therefore either went into 10 man guilds or disbanded/quit playing the game. Our server is dying.

Don't EVER tell me what 25man raiding is about or what people should do if they wanted to raid 25man. Don't EVER assume that 10 man raids are in the slightest comparable to proper 25 man hardmode progress or the effort that goes into it. And to Blizzard, don't assume loot is the reason people switch. It's the achievements, brainiacs. Loot is just a tool to get to the goal, but it's not the goal itself. And never assume that 10man are tuned too hard. If Blizzard gets crazy and halves the size of every boss area, then we can talk about proper tuning. I'd like to see you 10 man monkeys deal with positioning when you only have half the area to do it in.

[TooMuch]

I think it's a broader problem than 10 vs 25. If I look at the server I am playing on, the amount of people playing is getting less every week so guilds disband. Additionally people have an entitlement problem: a guy on our server organizes 10-man pugs. He barely gets a group going (aside from the 3 people joining every week), because people join once, don't make too much progress in 2 days (6/6 MV, and 2/6 HoF) and don't come again.

[Slant]

Seeing how they were already bribing 25 man raids with slightly more loot and are now giving them a better chance at better loot then it is very clear ppl do not want to do 25s. If ppl really wanted to do them then they would be doing them. For the ppl that say they cannot find one, well stop being lazy and bitching and make one or look harder. Ppl acting elitist, acting like they are the majority and then somehow trying to be the underdog vs the 10 man raiders are beyond laughable.

Read my post. I am doing 25 man and have to read I'm elitist by some funny guy on the internet. Yeah, feels really good. Totally worth it, to be laughed at by some 10 man raider. If you want to know why people say WoW is past its prime time, this is one of the reasons why people say raiding in TBC was the real deal and afterwards it degraded.

[Kaiarra]

Seeing how they were already bribing 25 man raids with slightly more loot and are now giving them a better chance at better loot then it is very clear ppl do not want to do 25s. If ppl really wanted to do them then they would be doing them. For the ppl that say they cannot find one, well stop being lazy and bitching and make one or look harder. Ppl acting elitist, acting like they are the majority and then somehow trying to be the underdog vs the 10 man raiders are beyond laughable.

What worries me with this is where it's going to end; Blizzard seem insistent on their refusal to let 25m go extinct. If they keep on adding extra incentives to raid 25m eventually the majority of us are going to feel pressured back into 25m. I mean what's next on their list if this idea still doesn't fix 25-mans? 10 items per boss kill? A free elder coin roll per boss for everyone?

[Deleted]

Op the problem isnt actually a logistical one but a recruitment one, people just don't apply very much as there is no advantage and they can get further easier in 10 man.

I have 20+ raiders that disagree and do want to raid 25 man but when people have to leave due to real life commitments its nigh on impossible to replace them.

[mag07]

Blizzard's greediness is what killed 25mens in the first place. It's so much easier not to have to design seperate gear sets for different raid setups.

Now, the current changes, while pointing in the right directions, are nowhere near enough to bring 25men raiding back to life.

First, server merges - despite Blizz claiming millions and millions of WoW sub, the EU side of things isn't rosy. There are a couple of high pop realms out there, the rest is dead. My realm, BDF, has no 25men raiding at all, zero, nada. We have around 100 members in our 6 year old guild, 4 of which are actually actively playing WoW, the rest of us hang out in other games hoping a day will come when WoW will offer an incentive to play it again. Do they really hope that a couple of hundred thousand players will pay for transfering 11 characters to be able to play the game they've paid for over and over again?

Second - seperate lockouts

Third - seperate achivements

Fourth - different gear, not different ilevel - it seems like way too much hastle to try to organize 25mens just to step up .0x% in overall stats

Whether you liked BC or not, truth is, by the end of it, WoW had nearly 10 mill subs in West alone. Now they claim to have just slightly less, but that is Worldwide, with the EU, quite obviously, judging by the empty cities/areas on various realms, being just a tiny fraction of the whole.

No incentive will help if there simply aren't enough people around to do it with. And to bring back the people, they would have to do much more then boost your ilevel by few points.

The market has evolved immensly since WoW's peak time, for some reason Blizz refuses to acknowledge that it's affecting their game.

[Deleted]

This "fix" will help, at least for a year or so.The problem isn't that 25 man is dying, it's that raiding is becoming less and less popular, especially on low pop realms. 10 man guilds are dying everywhere as well.

[Slant]

I think the problem started with Karazhan. That alone got a few guilds into big trouble. How do you split 25 people into two 10 man groups just after downsizing from 40 to 25 man? And yet, it was a well designed instance for 10 man and a lot of fun even months after you were into T5 content already. Blizzard saw that and immediately assumed there was a target group that wanted to raid 10 people, so they started WotLK development with that in mind. And that's where all the problems began, including the whining that 10 man should be a feasible format on its own etc.

Why didn't we yell "If you want to raid 10 man, raid 10 man, regardless of lower iLevel"? Because we were dumb and thought Blizzard wouldn't listen to the bickering... Guess we were wrong. And now we have it reversed and a crapton of ex-casual players suddenly greed for server firsts. And you know what, it is my firm belief that half the people bitching about 25 mans getting advantages are turncoaters that would go wherever the realm firsts are easier to get. Liars and hypocrites is the one thing the internet has an abundance of.

[Valkryx]

You are still wrong. Just go read the thousands of arguments in the other threads.

---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 10:47 AM ----------



I did make a mistake with saying that. But grats on still being an idiot after hundreds of threads and more than a year of discussing this issue. That you still believe people simply prefer 10 mans because of the raidsize... But keep defending your precious 10 man raidsize.

pro·mote (pr-mt)
tr.v. pro·mot·ed, pro·mot·ing, pro·motes
1.
a. To raise to a more important or responsible job or rank.
b. To advance (a student) to the next higher grade.
2. To contribute to the progress or growth of; further. See Synonyms at advance.
3. To urge the adoption of; advocate: promote a constitutional amendment.
4. To attempt to sell or popularize by advertising or publicity: commercials promoting a new product.
5. To help establish or organize (a new enterprise), as by securing financial backing: promote a Broadway show.

They were not promoting 25's because 25's already excisted and when 10 mans were introduced they never had to promote 25's. They had to promote 10's for obvious reasons and by doing that they ruined the 25's community or whatever you want to call it.

wow, ok so we resorting to name calling now? and you wanna call me an idiot? and you make comments like this? buddy go read those hundreds of threads for the past FOUR years! they never had to "promote" 10 mans, your right they have made changes, wrath brought both 10 and 25 man versions to each raid and that when the serious bitching started. reason i say they never had to promote ten mans is because even back then they were ran more than 25s, not only did you have the guilds that only had enough for 10 but if you were in a high end 25man guild like i was ( was an officer of <Late Night Mafia> on terenas/kilrogg as a holy/ret paladin Çloud/valkryx) you would have to run BOTH you would run normal 10 man just to have an edge to run norm 25 and when icc came you used 25 just to have an edge for 10man herioc just to have an edge for 25man herioc, it caused many to get burned out fast and complain. and on top of the burn out you had to have 10-15 people on the benches for those that didnt show/late/dc/RL issue occurance, than when you split into 10man you had to bench another 5 people (always dps peeps usually), and in 25s you have alot more competitions for gear, Does anyone remember the fights over turning tide between the mages locks and holy palys?, and experience tells ya that after a while of all this and that many people just ends up being alot more drama.
im one of the people that after cata turned around left, xfered and started a 10man guild, now i cant speak for every 10man Guild Leader/Raider but with 10man I get a feel of a much tighter niche of people, if your team is set up smoothly u have almost no gear competition, instead of 10-15 others on the side you maybe only have 3-5, and its a bit more challenging, if one person dies its quick BR and hope we still get it if 2 die its a wipe but in 25man if 2-5 people drop you can still try to push thru (hell you even have 2 more BRs than 10s), and this is all with the knowledge that we arent gonna get as much gear as 25 man and gear slower. the incentive for 25mans is there, but like you would see people have told you constantly over and over agian in those "hundreds of threads" the majority dont care bout the gear they just enjoy the raid size more. they didnt "promote" 10mans they just stopped promoting 25mans "your precious raidsize".
oh but you want 15man raids? exactly how different is that to 10mans? besides more people in raid and more people on side more gear competition to cause fights. but by all means keep flinging insults and talking with no proof, hell i already know nothing im saying is gonna make it thru your dense skull, its like talking to a 2 year old who just covers his ears, shakes his head, and starts screaming "NAHNAHNAHNAHNAH" (oops looks like i flinged a bit of an insult there, meh)

[Deleted]

I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.

You are either running a million addons or you have all graphics turned on max, I promise you you can raid 25 mans without lagging at all. I have done it with a worse processor and an ati 5850.

[Deleted]

I still think they should retire 25 people raiding. Let it die and retire it. Then maybe make special 15 people raiding, give incetives to people to raid that one, and also remove 10 people one. 15 is a good balance, not too many people, not too few.

[Deleted]

Well OP, I'm fine with adding all that to 25 man raiding on two conditions: LFR gets the same items, as that's 25 man too, and 10 man raids get exclusive items like that as well (but of course different models then the 25 man stuff).

[Spike`]

lol @ 10 man is easier and 25 is alot harder

most people here just want to feel special and better than everybody else, news flash you aren't

25 is only harder for the OFFICERS, NO ONE ELSE, ok for raiders only fights with stricky /range in small spaces like Blood Queen, nothing more

in 10mans everyone has more responsability than 25, is almost everyone has the same work has the tank and healers

in 25? lol, just dps

and yes, i raided both in WOLTK, CATA and in MOP, is pathetic the easier it is to be in an 25 raid, the fast you can gear up but ALL THE RESPECT TO THE OFFICERS, its alot of drama on 25, everyone else is simply be on time and press some buttons

but oh well, your mind will not change, you think you are special and you in 25 are the Almighty (if you are not a officer), so be it, be happy lol

has for more people going to 10 is alot because of the fps lag, if they simply change to lower effects of all the spells on 25 to gain around 15 more fps then more people you be back to 25

its not fun to play with 15-25fps and sometimes with breaks, hello big world area aka Terrance and hello Sha