Should we reroll if we wanna seriously PvP in 5.2?

[pitakos]

I'll start with stating that you're retarded douchebag, simply becouse you're.

1. It was obvious from beta that locks won't be a FOTM pvp class and all FOTM rerollers actually rolled SPs, Mages and Warriors.
2. All classes communities are the same, stop thinking that you belong to something special becouse you play warlock.
3. If you're ready to play a gimped class just so more peoples (becouse they aren't all kids and it isn't bad to be a kid and average kid probably have more brains and play better then you anyway) reroll from it then you're beyond help and i dunno what for i'm posting it anyway.
4. Saying that locks survived Cata!!! just shows how much of a scrub you're becouse we were top dog class during wholle Cata expansion.

This post was simply too agravating...
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Tbh right now i've no clue how Blizz can fix warlocks in arena setting and whether they're going to aknowledge that we've some glaring issues. I completly agree that rogues, monks and dk aprising will bring more hurt to us then it'll do us a favour - ofc we'll have a choice to play with rogues or dks once again, but overall both this classes counter warlocks and increasing melee participation will flood ladder with all possible cleave variants that will be hard to live long against.

Imo pushing locks from passive to active defences was the worst decision made by blizzard. That concept works for mages becouse of their dmg avoiding ability so they avoid dmg for a period of time and when they're at death door they have cds to use, also all cc they've provides them with burst opportunities. Things are entirely different for locks - we take dmg, tp and couple sec later enemy is already on us (becouse of through the roof mobility melees have) and milk us and healer out of cds in no time. Shortly after we die.

This season bloodfear was the only thing (exept prenerf demo burst) that was carrying locks, allowing them to snipe healer with instant cc and put counterpreassure. As it looks for next season training locks will lead to easiest victory ever becouse it'll fully negate locks CC potential on healer and dmg dealing capabilities (dot whatever with SB:SS, it's not enough dmg to preassure enemy healer).

Exactly the kind of retard i was talking about. Thanks for proving my sayings.

Hf rerolling you wont be missed. (hf with your fotm rogue next patch)

Edit :Even if you dont deserve it i will give you an actual response

Beta wasn't indicating that locks will be fotm when you could global someone with chaos bolt or chaos wave?I think you havent started playin beta early on then, because qq posts were all over the beta forums (and continued during release until 5.0.5 patch).

Lets see the overview of Warlock in Cata and MoP.

A Warlock during Cata :

PvE : One of the worst dps class (only superior to shamans), with the most complicated rotation and less rewarding in matter of dps.To put it bluntly, you were a Healthstone machine and ppl only cared to whom you will use your Dark Intent.That was all. I guess you were to busy playing your human rogue during that time.

Rbgs:Mediocre at best. Skill was the biggest factor to be in a group, and you were mostly able to get a spot because locks were a rare thing to get

Arena: Above average, yet nothing like a human rogue with PvE legendary daggers and PvE trinket (was getting boosted cause of items not actual skill). Again, warlock's skill wouldn't be in line with a partly PvE human rogue like you.

Now lets see MoP (and mostly 5.1, skipping release were locks were dominant (Blizzcon had 8 teams out of 10 with locks).

PvE: One of the best dps specs, if not the best, being able to top meters, with a rotation and DoT system that forgives minor mistakes (Unlike Cata). Now they will pick a lock because of its top tier dmg, single target or aoe wise, even in matters while moving (penalties for doing so hardly matter at all in most cases).

RBG: One of the best aoe classes, with great cleaving or focus dmg potential. In general, there are many rbg teams that will bring 2 warlocks and build their strategy around them (not the case in Cata).

Arena: Mediocre now, underwealming in 5.2. Even if destro and Demo were far ahaid during release, nerfs put them into the ground. But still, thats not only Warlock's fault, but the overwhelming utility of other classes.You can still perfom some roles, like doing sustain dps as affliction, or heavy phase dmg as demo/destro, or bring up opportunities for your teamate to score kills.

So to Sum it up a Warlock in MoP vs Cata

Rbgs: MoP Warlock > Cata Warlock
PvE: MoP Warlock > Cata Warlock
Arena: Mop Warlock < Cata Warlock

So atm a warlock in MoP had a big overhaul in all three specs and seems like a new class (3 unique resource systems and spells categorized better), perfoming much better in 2/3 parts of the game. Cata Warlock was like a relic of the past, specs were mested up, and was superior to Mop's Warlock only in 1/3 part of the game.

Now the thing is, if Blizzard decides to buff Warlock so he is better in Arena, how it will affect the 2 other parts of the game? Representation in rbg and PvE are indicating that we have to get toned down, not otherwise. The real question is not how they have to buff warlocks so we are viable in Arena, its impossible all these classes and specs to be viable in all aspects of the game. The question imo is what they have to do to tone down the CC (maybe nuke and sustained dmg too), so some classes are not so superior to others (not excluding warlocks). Now the only logical turn if they intend to keep things like this, would be to get Mortal Coil as a base spell and get a new talent (the only option imo to boost arena lock without affecting PvE)


EDIT 2: Don't forget that in 5.2 we get a 10%stamina buff, a 10% spell dmg reduction and 6% melee dmg reduction(10% - the armor removal ),Also with the Sarcificial Pact change it makes it viable to get it as in GoSac spec too (plus that it boosts pet's survivability). Instead of blood fear we get a defensive cd (they will twick Blood Horror more for our favour imo), a speed reduction immunity (new burning rush), and maybe the option to spec into a second trinket. So maybe we loose the BF, but we atleast get some viable options in return.And with the buff on rogues and dks, we have some good allies back for viable compositions (e.x RLS or shadowcleave)


Infracted for flaming

[Nicola]

Beta wasn't indicating that locks will be fotm when you could global someone with chaos bolt or chaos wave?I think you havent started playin beta early on then, because qq posts were all over the beta forums (and continued during release until 5.0.5 patch).

There was way to little PvP going on on beta to actually see how strong some classes were. Chaos bolt was never a big problem, nor was chaoswave, for 1 reason mainly, dark soul was dispellable.

Lets see the overview of Warlock in Cata and MoP.

A Warlock during Cata :

PvE : One of the worst dps class (superior to elemental shaman), with the most complicated rotation and less rewarding in matter of dps.To put it bluntly, you were a Healthstone machine and ppl only cared to whom you will use your Dark Intent.That was all. I guess you were to busy playing your human rogue during that time.

Right, warlocks totally weren't one of the top dps classes... While our complication was harder then other classes, and we were dependent on having the legendary, we were doing very well on dps.

Rbgs:Mediocre at best. Skill was the biggest factor to be in a group, and you were mostly able to get a spot because locks were a rare thing to get

Not really, affliction was king of multi-dotting and chain fearing. Getting a spot wasn't much of a deal.

Arena: Above average, yet nothing like a human rogue with PvE legendary daggers and PvE trinket (was getting boosted cause of items not actual skill). Again, i warlock's skill wouldn't be in line with a partly PvE human rogue like you.

Yeah, it's not like half of the comps you met were anything + lock + shaman... The warlock-shaman combination was amazing, it didn't really matter what the third class was because the combo was that strong. For arena, affliction was more then just above average.

Now lets see MoP (and mostly 5.1, skipping release were locks were dominant (Blizzcon had 8 teams out of 10 with locks).

The teams did qualify themselves during cataclysm, hence why there were so many warlocks...

PvE: One of the best dps specs, if not the best, being able to top meters, with a rotation and DoT system that forgives minor mistakes (Unlike Cata). Now they will pick a lock because of its top tier dmg, single target or aoe wise, even in matters while moving (penalties for doing so hardly matter at all in most cases).

It's easier to play warlocks for PvE, and they are more forgiving now, but as said above, in cataclysm they were a top class as well.

RBG: One of the best aoe classes, with great cleaving or focus dmg potential. In general, there are many rbg teams that will bring 2 warlocks and build their strategy around them (not the case in Cata).

The reason why people bring more warlocks is mainly due the fact that it's less likely they'll get tunneled, allowing them to show their full damage potential. The aoe isn't to amazing, but their cleaving is very good if left alone. Strategies ain't build around just warlocks either, more about aoe'ing teams in general.

Arena: Mediocre now, underwealming in 5.2. Even if destro and Demo were far ahaid during release, nerfs put them into the ground. But still, thats not only Warlock's fault, but the overwhelming utility of other classes.You can still perfom some roles, like doing sustain dps as affliction, or heavy phase dmg as demo/destro, or bring up opportunities for your teamate to score kills.

They weren't ahead during release. While they were more viable then now, they weren't top tier. Chaosbolt was not that much of an issue at higher ratings, and chaos wave wasn't a big problem either till 5.1 where they made dark soul undispellable.
At lower ratings, yes, they were very strong, but once you got higher and people knew how to counter you, you weren't that amazing anymore. Still above average, but not even top tier.

[pitakos]

Sorry not in mood to quote another quote to answer to you Niberion but:

If you watched Blizcon still demo looks were too dominant against other classes you could understand this,thats when more qq posts started happening.

In cata warlocks were not top tier dps at all ( i think unless Warmaster boat encounter?). Even if worldoflogs is not trusthworthly after some point (cause of different tricks), warlock was not at all as dominant as he is now in some encounters, but in general also you could not compete with most classes.He was average at best.And add that your complicity of your rotation and perfection perfoming it was no rewarding compared to others.

Demo lock during release was indeed dominant until blizzcon (were people witnessed how to deal with their burst), and you could see the frustation you were giving to others with the hate whispers from lvl 1 characters. Even if Dark Soul was dispellable, you wanted 2 globals to land your 2 fat chaos waves.In order to loose it you should face a class that could do that, and even if it was only 1 you could easily cc him in order to land them (benefiting for teamates like mages that could pinch them down for you). And it was not like you would face every time someone so skilled to insta dispell/spellsteall you.

I didnt say Cata locks sucked back then , but they werent as dominant as they are now. Right now you insta fear enemy healer and your dmg is more straight forward unlike then.

Getting a spot back in Cata as i said was easily to get because the Warlocks representation were too low, unlike now. I dont have any link atm to prove that, but i am pretty sure warlock representation (in numbers) is higher than in Cata.

[Nicola]

Sorry not in mood to quote another quote to answer to you Niberion but.

Hehe

If you watched Blizcon still demo looks were too dominant against other classes you could understand this,thats when more qq posts started happening.

Negative. Demo warlocks were strong, yes, but remember that there also were frost mages, that could solo people from 80-0 in a deep. There was a reason why everyone was playing orc. Spriests were also overpowered during 5.0 before all the healing nerfs happened, so I don't see where you're getting that demonology warlocks were dominant?

Demo lock during release was indeed dominant until blizzcon (were people witnessed how to deal with their burst), and you could see the frustation you were giving to others with the hate whispers from lvl 1 characters. Even if Dark Soul was dispellable, you wanted 2 globals to land your 2 fat chaos waves.In order to loose it you should face a class that could do that, and even if it was only 1 you could easily cc him in order to land them (benefiting for teamates like mages that could pinch them down for you). And it was not like you would face every time someone so skilled to insta dispell/spellsteall you.

The damage is calculated when it lands, not when it's casted, hence why chaoswave also does less damage if you instantly shift out of meta. Not to forget that having it spellstolen by a mage could result in someone getting oneshotted. They had a lot of pressure, they could bring a lot of burst, but the real chaoswave problem started in 5.1 because you no longer could counter it with dispels.

Getting a spot back in Cata as i said was easily to get because the Warlocks representation were too low, unlike now. I dont have any link atm to prove that, but i am pretty sure warlock representation (in numbers) is higher than in Cata.

Warlocks had a ~6.5% overall representation in cataclysm, now they have a 7.4%. One would say that gain is mainly because warlock PvE is easier and more interesting now.
For PvP on the other hand, our representation has already dropped to 3 times less then in cataclysm. We were sitting on 12+% for 3s, now we've dropped below 4% already, so your statement that the representation was to low isn't making sense since warlocks were wanted.
As for RBG, I don't know the numbers out of my head...but warlocks were wanted, and it had nothing to do with how many people were playing warlock.


Now a last thing I just gonna say, if the tournament realm and invitationals for the BWC were held in MoP, there wouldn't be so many warlocks. Every warlock at the BWC, played as a warlock during cataclysm. And even for a pro, it's not easy to change to a completely different class and fully mastering it in less then 2 months.

[pitakos]

Dont forget that Cata was a very alt friendly expansion, so 6.5% was actually a lot less, since i am guessing the numbers your are giving are for top lvl characters. I guess you recall that for example on every bh10/25 spam, they would ask for a lock always (class runs).

5.1 chaos wave got toned down yes, thats why dark soul became undispellable (33% nerf on chaos wave dmg if i am not mistaken?), but that made demo even less represented. If you could secure your self those 2 big chaos waves in 5.04, you would bring a lot more threat than now in 5.1, but in 5.1 you can do it easier.


Representation in matter of main characters of warlock class, not PvP representation. I know that Cata locks had more arena representation than now, but its only logical for some classes to be favored in an expansion or season at least. Warlock tho are the biggest class represented in high tears overall (for all seasons).

They all were Orcs because of the CC reduction passive mostly, since CC is far too much in this expansion, i dont this has to do with warlocks.

Last, Blizzcon as i said 8/10 teams had locks (7 demo 1 destro i think), 9/10 had shamans (7 or 8 resto?) and i cant recall mages i think 5 or 6/10. Mages were strong yes and they could bring someone down really fast, but so could demo locks if not handled carefully (were most ppl wont in average games).

My point is that post 5.1, you would face many demo locks above 1,7k or more, were now they arerarer than a unicorn.They toned us down will they didn't touch anyone else, yes, but i don't think the solution would be to buff up us again.The best solution would be to tone down other classes too(they don't actually the buff some), or give us 1 extra CC at least (imo Mortal Coil should be base again, at least for destro,affli), and they new talent in place of Mortal Coil should be an extra passive defensive (5% dmg reduction more on Fel Armor would be good, or some cc reduction)

Edit : Since we have gone this way offtopic, and trying to bring this back to topic: It varies of what your want .Warlocks wont be competitive imo but I could be easily wrong .By the time they buff Dks and Rogues Rls and shadowCleave will be an valid option in my opinion, and if they keep twinking the burst a bit of fromm all classes , affli will be good choice in 5.2 .

Now for competitive PvP, only a few locks will make it to the top, but i think we will have at least some representation (propably the least tho). You can either reroll and try to get easier on top PvP tier, or stick to your class and try to make the best out of it. As for me , I will stick to my lock even if the things will be as bad as the clues indicate .But I wont go make QQ posts on official forums about it , i will try to find a way to enjoy my class of preference (even if this means no Arena only Rbgs) .

[Nicola]

Dont forget that Cata was a very alt friendly expansion, so 6.5% was actually a lot less, since i am guessing the numbers your are giving are for top lvl characters. I guess you recall that for example on every bh10/25 spam, they would ask for a lock always (class runs).

5.1 chaos wave got toned down yes, thats why dark soul became undispellable (33% nerf on chaos wave dmg if i am not mistaken?), but that made demo even less represented. If you could secure your self those 2 big chaos waves in 5.04, you would bring a lot more threat than now in 5.1, but in 5.1 you can do it easier.

I ment overall representation yes.

And just saying but dark soul became undispellable before they hotfixed the chaoswave nerf... Because of dark soul no longer being dispellable, you couldn't counter that +90% damage on chaoswave, so it got nerfed pretty hard.

And again, the only reason there were so many warlocks at blizzcon, was because they qualified themselves during cataclysm while they were still really amazing.
It's not an easy thing to completely master a new class, being capable to fight against the best players in the world in less then 2 months time, hence why people sticked to their warlocks instead of rolling a hunter for example.