Guilds Falling Apart a Lot This Patch

[Harekrsna]

Wrong.

It is blizzards job to prove content doable by the playerbase - either by matching the encounters to the playerbases skill or by teaching the playerbase to play right from the start. Right now blizz leave the players largely clueless but also tunes their stuff to be only doable by experts.

The playerbase can clear content, thats what LFR is for. If you can't do LFR then I don't know what to say to you. Normal / Heroic content is now designed to each have a certain level of difficulty and not be completed by just walking through it with 0 effort or knowledge or skill. Heroic mode especially is designed to be very challenging but doable if done right. Its the difference between a normal dungeon, a heroic dungeon and a challenge mode dungeon. Different skill levels for different players.

[judgementofantonidas]

So you just mash buttons with no real thought process involved from 1-90. You don't care how to pull more or why someone else in lesser gear and the same spec as you is doubling your dps? You arent curious what he is doing differently than you? What kind of tuning can blizzard possibly do if 90% Of players fail at even learning how to play? Leveling and hitting 90, then expecting to down bosses without even knowing your class. Loot in your m ailbox sounds about right if 90% of people dont know their class, that sounds rather high btw.

I personally strive to out dps better geared players as I level. For the short amount of time it generally takes to level an alt. But then I am in the "minority" of players that strives to excell regardless of my lack of success at doing so.

[fangless]

So you just mash buttons with no real thought process involved from 1-90. You don't care how to pull more or why someone else in lesser gear and the same spec as you is doubling your dps? You arent curious what he is doing differently than you? What kind of tuning can blizzard possibly do if 90% Of players fail at even learning how to play? Leveling and hitting 90, then expecting to down bosses without even knowing your class. Loot in your m ailbox sounds about right if 90% of people dont know their class, that sounds rather high btw.

Thing is, Blizzard could make some single player trial scenario where you have to obtain XYZ dps with scaled gear, tune it to a proper rotation, and expect people to perform at X% of optimal output... and people would complain that it takes too much to win.

I would LOVE something like this in the game though, that used up to date player theorycrafting/rotations as the tuned numbers, and then even give hints on rotations/skill priorities.

[Crashdummy]

Although hard to believe it IS possible when you are dealing with MILLIONS of players.

Again, if thats the case, then IMO t14 was a failure, because at least 40% of the guilds trying it couldnt down a single boss.

[ro9ue]

So by choosing the casual mentality, does that mean you don't know the correct rotations for your class?Reforge?Gemming? When to use Cd's and when not to? How to glyph? Or do people expect to do everything mostly wrong and still down bosses? Blizzard doesn't ask much from its players besides play your class and pull the numbers you should and you will down bosses, period. Pull the numbers you should and you will progress like you should.

What do you mean? Never asked to just roll into a raid and get free loot. It's about more forgiving mechanics for casual players who maybe understand their class 80%. If you have maybe 1-2 "wrong" gems and 1 "wrong" glyph, shouldn't mean you can't accomplish anything in this game.

[Deleted]

Wrong.

It is blizzards job to prove content doable by the playerbase - either by matching the encounters to the playerbases skill or by teaching the playerbase to play right from the start. Right now blizz leave the players largely clueless but also tunes their stuff to be only doable by experts.

ok, so for example they should dumb down PvP to match my level of skill (I am total noob), just because I should be able to do it and get gladiator title?
Come on people you are not entitled to be best at everything in this game If you can't beat easy bosses then stick to LFR.

[Osmeric]

If you pull the numbers you should then you will progress. If you fail at that then it isn't blizzards job to carry you through content especially normal mode.

This is the irrelevant argument hardcores always seem to fall back on. It's bogus and entirely misses the point.

It is confusing two completely different things: actions within the game, in which playing better leads to better results, and actions outside the game, where the designers decide how to tune things. "Game" vs. "metagame".

The tuning of content is a knob that the designers can adjust any way they want. Tuning it down isn't an axiomatically bad move, as you seem to be suggesting. Consider if the content were tuned so high that no one could do it. Would tuning it down be bad? Of course not. So why is further tuning down bad? There is an optimal level of tuning; why is your prefered level supposed to be better that someone elses?

[isadorr]

No disrespect but it seems like you just have a solid 10 core players who are fairly hardcore. I've been in guilds like that and I know it can be hard to understand where a casual guild comes from, but we raid two nights a week and constantly rotate 2-4 slots in our raid every week because people prioritize raiding very low (hallmark of a casual guild) and that's fine. This is the same type of guild who got 3/8 H DS pre-nerf which I thought was decent progression for our playstyles. The problem is the entry level bosses are too hard to have to reteach every week so nothing is every really on farm and less people can be carried. Also, less server activity overall means slim pickens for our roster and we have to be less picky. We can't get all 10 players to be all-star Joes. I'm used to raid encounters that allows us to carry 2-4 people in a 10 man fairly easily.

Changes servers, look at your core group, look at their numbers and their classes. Are they pulling the numbers they should for their gear? It sounds like a server change would be the best thing for you, i know alt runs with some pugs are doing a fair amount of heroic farming on lightbringer. Get on a good server, get to know some good players, add them to friends and win.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:41 PM ----------

I personally strive to out dps better geared players as I level. For the short amount of time it generally takes to level an alt. But then I am in the "minority" of players that strives to excell regardless of my lack of success at doing so.

For the most part joining a better guild is the best bet depending on your spec/class and your logs. If you log well then getting into a better guild with more people of the same mindset fixs all.

[Caladia]

My guild isn't falling apart, but we're not progressing like I would normally like to see the raid I'm in progress. The GM tries to make everyone happy in this casual, family-oriented, guild that has people that want to raid. So we have two 10 man raids, each one bringing 1-2 people that need to be carried. So we have 8 people that could really push content and progress faster if we had 2 competent players to fill the last two spots.

This is eventually going to lead to burn-out on us 8 that really would like to push further. The problem for me, besides just leaving, is that I want to raid with friends and finding a guild that raids the days/times that we can make it and can accept 2+ raiders into their team really brings the chances of finding one down. So I just keep chugging away at it, doing what I can to help improve the other raiders when I can.

But looking at the raiding guilds on the server, there is definitely a drop from DS, and probably beforehand as well. Looking at wowprogress.com I see we have 40 guilds with at least 1 kill this tier, with 81 guilds with at least 1 kill in DS, 102 guilds with at least 1 kill for tier11, and finally 147 guilds with at least 1 kill in ICC10.

Good times.

[Crashdummy]

ok, so for example they should dumb down PvP to match my level of skill (I am total noob), just because I should be able to do it and get gladiator title?
Come on people you are not entitled to be best at everything in this game If you can't beat easy bosses then stick to LFR.

Get gladiator? No, those are the heroic kills. Win a bg? Yeah, they should dumb down PVP to math your level to be able to win a bg (and they have, any john doe can win a bg).

[Harekrsna]

Just looking at the progress on my server, mine included, T14 will remain progress for MANY players for a week or two into T15. T15 is being dropped too soon, not T14 is too difficult.

I do agree that T15 is coming out a little bit too early, when you compare the amount of weeks vs. the bosses it is a little bit ridiculous seeing that it is coming out earlier than all tiers in Cataclysm yet has more bosses than any of them. There will probably be some more casual guilds that will stick around in Tier 14 and try to finish up normals or maybe farm it for a bit to get gear but thats more of a personal decision. Anyone in 485+ ilvl can go into the next tier and begin clearing content in there on normal mode and start getting 522's + getting the new vp gear and raid finder gear to get themselves where they need to be. But if you are a normal mode guild like you are then the progression is the normal modes so getting 12/12 normal the first week isnt a priority since you aren't really going for 13/13H before the tier ends like a heroic guild might.

[judgementofantonidas]

Thing is, Blizzard could make some single player trial scenario where you have to obtain XYZ dps with scaled gear, tune it to a proper rotation, and expect people to perform at X% of optimal output... and people would complain that it takes too much to win.

I would LOVE something like this in the game though, that used up to date player theorycrafting/rotations as the tuned numbers, and then even give hints on rotations/skill priorities.

They kind of have that with brawlers club. Try getting to level 4 as a tank............

[Harekrsna]

Get gladiator? No, those are the heroic kills. Win a bg? Yeah, they should dumb down PVP to math your level to be able to win a bg (and they have, any john doe can win a bg).

Actually a BG is equivalent to LFR, normal raid bosses is like a low-rated arena/rbg player; you can't expect to win but eventually you will. And Heroic raiding is like going for gladiator, you might hit 2000 or something with a few bosses but some people will hit a brick-wall and not be able to close the deal.

[Zaerick]

Burnout right now is worse than I've seen it...probably ever

Tier 11 burn out was the worst by far. I can't say much because I have now quit for about 2 months but tier 11 almost 50% of our 25 man roster had quit including our GM of 6 years and 2 officers of 6 years. I was the first to quit this tier because of the fact we were doing 10 mans and not 25 mans like last expansion. I was having less fun having to DPS on every fight instead of healing like I did for the past 5 years.

The reason so many guilds are dieing is because of LFR. There is way too much content there Yes I am complaining about too much content. LFR takes a whole night to complete and some nights not a piece of loot drops for you. Tis is burning out raiders who raid normals and heroics because for the first month or two or even longer depending on how progressed their guild can get they have to do LFR to get gear to compete. IMO LFR should not be out for the current tier but it should come out when the next tier launches so the casuals can see the content and gear up at their rate but also so raiders can gear up their alts if needed for current tier raiding.

LFR is the sole reason I quit. I was sick and tired of having to do it but not doing it made me feel like crap because I wasn't putting in 100% effort like my guild members.

[Harekrsna]

They kind of have that with brawlers club. Try getting to level 4 as a tank............

Except Brawlers Guild doesn't tune your gear so if you out-gear it you can go in and one-shot everything. I went in on my 506 Warlock and killed everything up to Rank 8 in under 4 hrs and got all but one boss that day, once you out-gear it it becomes a joke.

[isadorr]

This is the irrelevant argument hardcores always seem to fall back on. It's bogus and entirely misses the point.

It is confusing two completely different things: actions within the game, in which playing better leads to better results, and actions outside the game, where the designers decide how to tune things. "Game" vs. "metagame".

The tuning of content is a knob that the designers can adjust any way they want. Tuning it down isn't an axiomatically bad move, as you seem to be suggesting. Consider if the content were tuned so high that no one could do it. Would tuning it down be bad? Of course not. So why is further tuning down bad? There is an optimal level of tuning; why is your prefered level supposed to be better that someone elses?

Funny you mention that, you realize how many times we used to wipe on bosses back in the day? It used to be months before some bosses went down and some times it was luck or stacking classes. People didn't whine asking for nerfs then because they knew they had to tweak things and play better. Players got to be really good at their class and pulled great numbers all the time. People were asked to kite, mage-tank, shamans kiting VashJ and so on. People could play their class and even when asked to do difficult things, they did it and did it well. So it isnt tuning, it is the player base. They were given hand outs and nerfs for so long that as another posted mentioned, 90% Of people not wanting to even learn their class and blizzard is supposed to tune around that number?

[judgementofantonidas]

I do agree that T15 is coming out a little bit too early, when you compare the amount of weeks vs. the bosses it is a little bit ridiculous seeing that it is coming out earlier than all tiers in Cataclysm yet has more bosses than any of them. There will probably be some more casual guilds that will stick around in Tier 14 and try to finish up normals or maybe farm it for a bit to get gear but thats more of a personal decision. Anyone in 485+ ilvl can go into the next tier and begin clearing content in there on normal mode and start getting 522's + getting the new vp gear and raid finder gear to get themselves where they need to be. But if you are a normal mode guild like you are then the progression is the normal modes so getting 12/12 normal the first week isnt a priority since you aren't really going for 13/13H before the tier ends like a heroic guild might.

The difference between this expac and last is that we finished the expac as one of only seven alliance guilds on our server to legitimately complete heroic dragonsoul prior to release of MOP talents. Now the difficulty is such that we are no longer an heroic guild. Sour grapes maybe but I would not change the difficulty for the world. When/if we get it down it will be more of an achievment than prior easier content.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 02:46 PM ----------

Except Brawlers Guild doesn't tune your gear so if you out-gear it you can go in and one-shot everything. I went in on my 506 Warlock and killed everything up to Rank 8 in under 4 hrs and got all but one boss that day, once you out-gear it it becomes a joke.

and although you would like to think he is, your warloc is not a tank.

[isadorr]

My guild isn't falling apart, but we're not progressing like I would normally like to see the raid I'm in progress. The GM tries to make everyone happy in this casual, family-oriented, guild that has people that want to raid. So we have two 10 man raids, each one bringing 1-2 people that need to be carried. So we have 8 people that could really push content and progress faster if we had 2 competent players to fill the last two spots.

This is eventually going to lead to burn-out on us 8 that really would like to push further. The problem for me, besides just leaving, is that I want to raid with friends and finding a guild that raids the days/times that we can make it and can accept 2+ raiders into their team really brings the chances of finding one down. So I just keep chugging away at it, doing what I can to help improve the other raiders when I can.

But looking at the raiding guilds on the server, there is definitely a drop from DS, and probably beforehand as well. Looking at wowprogress.com I see we have 40 guilds with at least 1 kill this tier, with 81 guilds with at least 1 kill in DS, 102 guilds with at least 1 kill for tier11, and finally 147 guilds with at least 1 kill in ICC10.

Good times.

Lots of guilds like really easy content and then after that it was heroics as the nerfs started to roll in. It will be the same way this tier, nerfs will start to roll in and people will be happy again. They will feel like really good raiders then when 5.2 hits, it will be another tier that is too difficult and they will be back in this forum crying for change.

[ro9ue]

Changes servers, look at your core group, look at their numbers and their classes. Are they pulling the numbers they should for their gear? It sounds like a server change would be the best thing for you, i know alt runs with some pugs are doing a fair amount of heroic farming on lightbringer. Get on a good server, get to know some good players, add them to friends and win.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:41 PM ----------



For the most part joining a better guild is the best bet depending on your spec/class and your logs. If you log well then getting into a better guild with more people of the same mindset fixs all.

Again... no offense but we don't care THAT much about the numbers. The problem is that we are casual but still all have a lot of experience with WoW and our classes. Do some of us have a different glyph or two from the 'accepted elitist' guides on the web? Maybe. That shouldn't mean we can't clear normals. Those people who are really into min/maxing have heroics.

What I'm trying to point out and sorry if I'm not clear, is that there's a massive gap now. Look at the bigger picture. If you understand your class maybe 25%, you're not going to be raiding. All of your gems are wrong, maybe you don't even have glyphs. That's fine. I'm talking about people who have a solid 75-80% understanding of their class. Maybe they do a few things wrong, but it shouldn't be so brutal that you need to be 100% flawless to accomplish anything in this game outside of heroic modes. Normal modes should be for people who are like 70-80% invested.

[Osmeric]

Funny you mention that, you realize how many times we used to wipe on bosses back in the day? It used to be months before some bosses went down and some times it was luck or stacking classes.

Now you are resorting to a lame argument by tradition. Sometimes the old ways of designing something are just bad. That old raiding style certainly didn't satisfy most people who played the game. There's a reason ex-WoW players outnumber WoW players, and it's not because there are tens of millions of hardcores who have quit.