World Record Siege of Niuzao Temple - 10:17

[Maebyfu]

Very impressive tactic. Definitly some norwegian people in that group

Maeby says hi!

[Mahoraba]

The fact other groups did it before or that it takes "skill" to do doesn't make it legit.

Who are you to define "Legit" or anyone that did not design the dungeon for that matter, legit in this case is a matter of how you perceive it, not a term of legal or illegal.

If you remove this teams timer you would need to remove the top 100 times along with it, since every single one of them used the reset strat.

[Criptos]

It's clever and kiting the adds to the very end is impressive as shit. But the timer is off, if you spent the time gaining the buff before then reset you basically are just resetting your timer mid run. You should add the time spent gaining the first bunch of stacks.

[Aethilus]

Excellent accomplishment, well done.

Side note: the argument about cheating or not to get the world first speed run time is entirely worthless. It seems both sides will hold onto their argument to the last. At the end of the day just say there are both races, one which is "legitimate" and one which uses anything and everything including "bugs and exploits". In a similar sense I tend to only respect world firsts that in theory everyone had the capability to do.

For example, in this case I am very impressed by the creative thinking and control used to achieve the time, a feat that anyone else can now do (and beneficially without any of the involved theory-crafting). I never really respected things like the world first race to max levels which have been done not through creative thinking and control but instead through mass numbers of cooperation, not everyone can get a group of 40 people to kill the mobs that the solo person tagged etc..

[mmines]

I don't know much about Challenge Mode, couldn't you reset two more times to start directly at 50 stacks? (Or is the dmg taken an issue?)

Think damage taken would be an issue, at the end of the video just three of those while he was at 50 stacks almost killed him.

[Deleted]

The time isn't an accurate reflection of the actual time involved. Notice how the video of their 10:17 run is longer then the actual run? It isn't as amazing a time when you actual time them based on actual time involved doing the run. It has nothing to do with jealousy but everything to do with honesty and giving actual credit for fastest run where it is deserved.

Sorry in advance to being uncivil, but what the fuck are you smoking? The timer starts when you start the instance it really is as simple as that. We get pre-buffs reset (which obviously includes the timer) then we go for real. What you said is your obscured opinion of how things should be times, fact is the vast majority of people will agree with my point as well as Blizzard (which is the more important one) since they don't time you from when you enter the instance, but rather from when you actually start it.

[RayuEU]

There seems to be a lot of discussion about the legitimacy of the tricks we used to obtain our time. Before I explain my view I would like to add that it is my own and it's not necessarily shared by my team.

First off - to each their own. There will always be a gray area of what is allowed in challenge modes. Personally I think they would be rather boring without most of the tricks we use, but others like to see just large pulls of mobs and leave it at that. I'm not entirely sure myself what I think about DKs in SM for example, but I like to look at how well a run is executed rather than the legitimacy of the tricks used; if it's fun to watch and takes skill to execute, then what's the problem with it?

I'm not going to further try to push my opinion down people's throats, because it will not likely change their minds, but I will say that I respect their views and understand where they are coming from and I hope they return that favor.

If Blizzard decides this is not allowed, then I hope they change the way the stacks work and we will do it as they intended it. It was not our intention to do anything that isn't allowed.

Arthelais, Discipline Priest

PS the intention of the OP was to get people excited about Challenge Modes.

[Deleted]

I think what Rayu sums it up best, although our opinions differ let's also enjoy what we produced and promote challenge modes as they are awesome!

P.S. Thanks for the congratulations! <3

[Deleted]

It seems like we reach this point every time game mechanicks are creatively used to get an edge.
Since all we can say about this issue is highly subjective, we need to focus on one point: could blizzard have anticipated people using this and decided not to care?
The definite answer to this is yes: the ''exploit'' of getting a buff of a random mob somewhere which increases dps bigtime and then summoning that person there has been around since vanilla (remember ony/zg buff stacking?).
So by that definition, blizzard could have attempted to stop this but choose not to.
If you look at it from another side: this is definately not the intended way of doing things, and it gives you a huge edge over people who compete in CM's legitimately.
Wether or not other people do it has no bearing on wether or not something isn't cheating: having everyone do it doesn't make it right (I could earn 100 euro/day boosting people in RBG, but I choose not to, even though all other top teams do). So that has nothing to do with wether or not it is cheating.
So in my personal moral oppinion, this was cheating and these people should have their record stripped from them and blizzard should fix this, but I can understand people who disagree, also this is comming from someone who needed to use a DK in SM to get a gold time there.
Regardless of wether or not its cheating, the control and micromanagement displayed by the group is incredible, especially the tanks kiting, so I wish to any group who wants to try and break this record: good luck and I hope blizzard doesn't ban you.

[crunk]

the real exploit here is guard lol. this probably wont be possible after next patch, but grats, thats some crazy damage you guys are able to handle

[Deleted]

That is so far from true it isn't funny. Back when my group had a majority of the fastest times in the world (and the only difference between those times and the current times is that we haven't had a group to go back and just push ourselves harder) not a single instance had a 'clever use of mechanics' with the exception of SM (and even then, I did not take part in that one). We just pulled big, pushed DPS hard and that's that. You don't need to exploit to get good times, it's possible without. Feel free to go watch the videos, too they're all still some of the fastest times in the world.

Having a priest for heals is pretty OP for getting the absolute best of the best.

Isn't getting 4 defenders purified in shado-pan monastary by just purifiying 1 defender a huge exploit? It clearly says "4 defenders purified" and not "4 people purifiying 1 defender"

You maybe mean SM as shadopan, but i do think you mean scarlet monastery which you probably used the control undead thing on.

It's easy to think back and think you did everything accordign to the rulebook, but im fairly sure that everyone who's done any serious speedrunning in CModes used a few "exploits."

E: You can also argue that pulling the last mobs in SH to the last boss qualifies as an exploit, as the boss actually doesn't get the 99% damage reduction IIRC. (Don't quote me 100% on that though)

Don't get me wrong, your runs are very very impressive and I love watching them, but sometimes you just can't follow the rulebook and do everything truthworthy.

[Mahoraba]

It seems like we reach this point every time game mechanicks are creatively used to get an edge.
Since all we can say about this issue is highly subjective, we need to focus on one point: could blizzard have anticipated people using this and decided not to care?

The definite answer to this is yes: the ''exploit'' of getting a buff of a random mob somewhere which increases dps bigtime and then summoning that person there has been around since vanilla (remember ony/zg buff stacking?).So by that definition, blizzard could have attempted to stop this but choose not to.If you look at it from another side: this is definately not the intended way of doing things, and it gives you a huge edge over people who compete in CM's legitimately.

Wether or not other people do it has no bearing on wether or not something isn't cheating: having everyone do it doesn't make it right (I could earn 100 euro/day boosting people in RBG, but I choose not to, even though all other top teams do). So that has nothing to do with wether or not it is cheating. So in my personal moral oppinion, this was cheating and these people should have their record stripped from them and blizzard should fix this, but I can understand people who disagree, also this is comming from someone who needed to use a DK in SM to get a gold time there.

Regardless of wether or not its cheating, the control and micromanagement displayed by the group is incredible, especially the tanks kiting, so I wish to any group who wants to try and break this record: good luck and I hope blizzard doesn't ban you.

Made your post readable and bolded the fault with that point of view, It is not your decision to make on whether or not this was illegitimate or legitimate, that lays with the Devs, if they so choose to think that this was an abuse of game mechanics and not a clever use of game mechanics then as i've stated before, the top 100 times at least use the reset stratagy but did not use the kite method, since the kite method is 100% skill then the only think you could be banned for would be the Reset method which, you would need to ban every single person that was involved in at the VERY LEAST the top 100 slots.

Do not let this person post above scare you, you will not get banned for this kind of thing.

[Deleted]

Made your post readable and bolded the fault with that point of view, It is not your decision to make on whether or not this was illegitimate or legitimate, that lays with the Devs, if they so choose to think that this was an abuse of game mechanics and not a clever use of game mechanics then as i've stated before, the top 100 times at least use the reset stratagy but did not use the kite method, since the kite method is 100% skill then the only think you could be banned for would be the Reset method which, you would need to ban every single person that was involved in at the VERY LEAST the top 100 slots.

Do not let this person post above scare you, you will not get banned for this kind of thing.

Thanks for making my post readable, I tend to focus on content rather then layout alot (my college proffesors agree with this )

However, if you had read my post rather then correcting it, you would have looked at one of the points I made: no matter how many people commit a wrong, it doesn't make it right, period.

Also, while I don't have any proof of it (and neither do you) I would like conjecting that the ''kiting'' part of the strategy is much more valuable then the ''resetting'' part, since it gives you a much bigger advantage. Therefore I would think that a bigger chunk of the top-100 would have been involved in kiting, since it is a pretty normal to kite mobs and stack a buff/debuff for maximum advantage. The kiting strat just seems like something people are more likely to do then the exploiting strat.


So while I agree with your point that these people are absolutely skilled and did a very good job, no matter if the top 100 (which I very much doubt is true) does it, it still doesn't make it right.

Also blizzard does have a history of resetting exploiters (see LK first kill)

[Venant]

Just for the sake of consistency, why is it cool to reset a run and keep a buff that apparently isn't intended to be stacked that high so quickly in a single run. If you were dealing with only the resources of a single speed run then you would have a limited number of buff stacks to deal with, but with this strategy you have far more resources than were designed to be in a single run.

If resetting an instance to give you more resources than you are supposed to have is ok, then why was it wrong to use saronite bombs to reset the LKs platform? In essence, both examples are situations where you are gaining more 'resources' than the encounter intended you to have. Why was it unintended for feral druids to be doing insanely high damage on the original release of Heroic Nefarian, in this example you also have players who figured out how to do more damage than was intended to be possible in the encounter. And why did they just recently change H Ambershaper so that you can't burn him down in phase 1, it is almost the same thing as what happened here with stacking a debuff ridiculously high so that you can effectively just blow up the boss.

I don't think that different standards should be applied to different aspects of PvE, you can't say that Blizzard intends for players to use tricks like this in timed runs but then everyone goes crazy when the same thing is done in a raid, and there are calls for bannings and removing achievements and loot.

[Kalmah]

It's kind of funny seeing people defending what is pretty clearly an exploit of an oversight by Blizzard.

It's still a pretty impressive run.

[Nerthfu]

Made your post readable and bolded the fault with that point of view, It is not your decision to make on whether or not this was illegitimate or legitimate, that lays with the Devs, if they so choose to think that this was an abuse of game mechanics and not a clever use of game mechanics then as i've stated before, the top 100 times at least use the reset stratagy but did not use the kite method, since the kite method is 100% skill then the only think you could be banned for would be the Reset method which, you would need to ban every single person that was involved in at the VERY LEAST the top 100 slots.

Do not let this person post above scare you, you will not get banned for this kind of thing.

We didn't, (currently world 4th) and we can probabbly beat that time without a reset too. There's even a proof that we didn't :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paKewmn_7kg

Didn't use the gong trick either

edit: Just wanted to note also that as you can see from my video keeping the ooze stack isn't a new strat, and if you want to point out that we didn't keep them for the entire instance you can just look at the comments I posted over 2 weeks ago saying it was possible, I also mentioned it very often on stream for those who watch my runs. I'm pretty sure all the players competing in the top 1% times know about it and knew about it for weeks now. I'm not taking credits for it because I'm sure others thought about it before me too.

edit2: Also wanted to say I'm not taking anything from that group, they did a really nice run and grats to them

[theyanger]

Made your post readable and bolded the fault with that point of view, It is not your decision to make on whether or not this was illegitimate or legitimate, that lays with the Devs, if they so choose to think that this was an abuse of game mechanics and not a clever use of game mechanics then as i've stated before, the top 100 times at least use the reset stratagy but did not use the kite method, since the kite method is 100% skill then the only think you could be banned for would be the Reset method which, you would need to ban every single person that was involved in at the VERY LEAST the top 100 slots.

Do not let this person post above scare you, you will not get banned for this kind of thing.

I won't comment on what is 'legit' and what isn't. This is up there with going through walls to me, but there are lots of semi-shady tactics you can use in various CMs, so it's really a grey area.

I'm going to call BS on the 'top 100 times' use it though. Like I said before, everyone knows you can do it, but it's very possible to get a legitimate time without it.

[Harmonium]

Posted by RayuEU
First off - to each their own. There will always be a gray area of what is allowed in*challenge*modes. Personally I think they would be rather boring without most of the tricks we use, but others like to see just large pulls of mobs and leave it at that. I'm not entirely sure myself what I think about DKs in SM for example, but I like to look at how well a run is executed rather than the legitimacy of the tricks used; if it's fun to watch and takes skill to execute, then what's the problem with it?

This line of thinking involves a risk — anyone could argue that what they do goes into the gray area. Let's use a controversial example.

If a group finds a way to prevent their gear from downscaling, they gain an advantage over everyone in 463 gear. If accused, the clever group could defend itself by stating that what they do is inside the boundaries of what's allowed, because what's allowed is not clearly defined. The logic you use would effectively legitimize this point of view.

Make of that what you will.

[Deleted]

Well done, well done!

[Deleted]

This line of thinking involves a risk — anyone could argue that what they do goes into the gray area. Let's use a controversial example.

If a group finds a way to prevent their gear from downscaling, they gain an advantage over everyone in 463 gear. If accused, the clever group could defend itself by stating that what they do is inside the boundaries of what's allowed, because what's allowed is not clearly defined. The logic you use would effectively legitimize this point of view.

Make of that what you will.

Thing is, all 5 people require either Engineering or the squire (I think?) which is somewhat a specialty to abuse the ilvl scaling bug. Additionally bugging your ilvl is definitely not allowed considering you are specifically scaled to 463 as part of the challenge of challenge modes, so trying to argue that is invalid using the same logic. However using Scarlet Monastery as an example again you specifically have to have a DK to abuse the add, no matter your skill or group comp you simply can't compete, whereas you can compete with what we did for example.