No new 5-player dungeons in 5.4

[HardCoder]

it's not an insult to call childish behavior childish. To that extent it isn't an insult to call people behaving as children children. The "real" argument is exactly what I said and has been tweeted by GC and blues on the forums all the time. Catch up ala cataclysm invalidated peoples works in the previous tiers. Which is childish behavior. It is equivelant to child taking his ball home when the other child has a toy that is some what REMOTELY similar to his. That isn't an insult, it's just a realization that a minority of players act like children.

When I saw GC use the "invalidated" word in a tweet I knew we were in for another awkward expansion.

I mean, really, who CARES that someone who didn't start playing in the first couple weeks of the expansion is able to catch up right away in the middle of the expansion? Is there someone that's actually BAD for? I don't understand what GC is trying to protect.

Blizzard got a whole bunch right with MoP, and more or less at the last moment, messed it up.

[Leonard McCoy]

When I saw GC use the "invalidated" word in a tweet I knew we were in for another awkward expansion.

I mean, really, who CARES that someone who didn't start playing in the first couple weeks of the expansion is able to catch up right away in the middle of the expansion? Is there someone that's actually BAD for? I don't understand what GC is trying to protect.

Blizzard got a whole bunch right with MoP, and more or less at the last moment, messed it up.

I honestly don't think the majority of progression raiders do care. Or even the elite hardcore guys. Hell I remember them complaining about dailies to. It literally is a minority of a minority that cares.

[MasterHamster]

Going back to a linear progression model is about the dumbest thing they could do for a couple of reasons.

1. It really is catering to a minority of so called hardcores and elites who had issues with me getting gear and "invalidating" their progress. These people are children frankly and should not be catered to in the slightest. Should note that this isn't he majority of the raiding community in any sense. It's really just a small subset of them who are children and will take their ball home if the other kid has the same or close to the same toy they do.
2. It's not gonna sate those children. Their hung up on an idea of what the game used to be and while trying to bring back linear progression is an attempt to emulate this it's a forced attempt that will simple fail to capture them becasue it fails to capture the essence of what had them hooked in TBC. In other words the past is done let it be.

I find it extremely funny that LFR is now for the gear where as before it was only catch up. People can't seem to get their stories straight. Probably for the devs it makes sense to shove people into LFR and not give us any more dungeons. It's a playstyle they can better gate and control, doesn't allow for anybody to game the system and their already building the raids anyway might as well fill em up with as many people as possible. I hope they lose millions of subs over this. Understand I want the game to succeed but not like this.

MoP is not catering to hardcores.

You might think going back to a more linear progression is a bad move, but they don't. We all know what went wrong in Cataclysm when I think it's pretty safe to say that more people saw Dragon Soul than any other raid. Not only because of LFR I might add.
Cheaper valor items, increased 5.0 LFR drops, new PvP BoEs, free i522 neck.. the progression is linear but it's sped up. That is way damn better than a newly dinged 90 in 5.2 essentially being given a full set of 490+ so he can go ToT. Which is probably what'd happen had they thrown in a couple of random dungeons that would make the older ones useless after hitting 460.

But you're impossible to convince. You refuse to do some dailies, so you probably can't spend valor on the now hilariously cheap valor gear. Perhaps if you did you'd think dungeons were a bit less useless. It's not really my concern, frankly I don't give a damn beyond replying to you now and then, but if you flat out refuse to see their reasoning, and why (judging from the past) excessive tier skipping is terrible for the games longevity, then it's pointless to even argue. I get the feeling you want some boring quartermaster selling i510 gear from Valor. Effectively removing 5.0 content from anyones mind.

You keep saying dungeons are unrewarding. Usually the very first stepping stone in progression ends up that way. But thanks to the 'okay' amount of valor, 100-120 justice per boss (you know, people do want heirlooms, or convert to honor, or whatever the fuck they do with it) you still see overgeared muppets do them. Your proposed design of keeping dungeons rewarding without touching dailies promote the clusterfuck tier-skip we saw in Cata, and I'm overjoyed that Blizzard doesn't listen to your standpoint.

I hope they lose millions of subs over this.

Yeah, that would be great, so you could attribute the loss to the lack of dungeons, or that Blizzard isn't keeping only 1 tier relevant at a time.
Great.

You know what I think would make the game bleed even more subs? 5.2 adding 2 dungeons that drop 493 gear and instantly 5.0 and 5.1 is forgotten. Yeah, that'll keep players busy long.

[Leonard McCoy]

MoP is not catering to hardcores.

You might think going back to a more linear progression is a bad move, but they don't. We all know what went wrong in Cataclysm when I think it's pretty safe to say that more people saw Dragon Soul than any other raid. Not only because of LFR I might add.
Cheaper valor items, increased 5.0 LFR drops, new PvP BoEs, free i522 neck.. the progression is linear but it's sped up. That is way damn better than a newly dinged 90 in 5.2 essentially being given a full set of 490+ so he can go ToT. Which is probably what'd happen had they thrown in a couple of random dungeons that would make the older ones useless after hitting 460.

But you're impossible to convince. You refuse to do some dailies, so you probably can't spend valor on the now hilariously cheap valor gear. Perhaps if you did you'd think dungeons were a bit less useless. It's not really my concern, frankly I don't give a damn beyond replying to you now and then, but if you flat out refuse to see their reasoning, and why (judging from the past) excessive tier skipping is terrible for the games longevity, then it's pointless to even argue. I get the feeling you want some boring quartermaster selling i510 gear from Valor. Effectively removing 5.0 content from anyones mind.



Yeah, that would be great, so you could attribute the loss to the lack of dungeons, or that Blizzard isn't keeping only 1 tier relevant at a time.
Great.

We disagree with what went wrong in cataclysm. Returning to a linear progression model doesn't solve the fact that it takes them to long to release content that people want. It just makes it grindier and slower. I see their reasoning I just disagree it's what the game needs.

As for then loosing subs that's exactly what I hope happens. So that they turn around and rethink their approach to the game. Mists and the tiered approach to raiding IS EXACTLY MEANT TO CATER TO HARDCORES or the minority of them who actually gave a fuck that I got gear fast out of a dungeon. That's exactly what they say when the devs talk about "invalidating" players by providing dungeons that are rewarding. It's extremely regressive, a massive grind, and will not serve to stem the tide of sub losses.

[MasterHamster]

If they're catering to hardcores by keeping more than 1 tier at a time relevant, then they sure made a lot of mistakes in that regard.

Like adding the 100% rep bonus
And reducing valor prices by 25-50%
And adding better BoEs
And increasing the droprate in LFRs
And giving the 522 neck
And giving reputation through dungeons
And reducing the ilvl for ToT LFR
And make Elder Charms drop on the new isles

Because that doesn't sound like anything a hardcore in average 510 by the end of 5.1 would need.
None of those changes makes 5.0 skippable, but it makes it way faster to progress through.

I wonder what your opinion of MoP would be if dungeons were the lootfest you hoped for, and LFR presumably giving guaranteed items through some obscure mean,
You'd probably be complaining that you have nothing to do. But that seems to be fine, you chose when you wanted to spend a couple of hours an evening or two and suddenly you're ready to raid the newest raid on Normal.

Yeah, that would've worked if Blizzards intent was to make a major patch last for a total of two weeks

[Leonard McCoy]

If they're catering to hardcores by keeping more than 1 tier at a time relevant, then they sure made a lot of mistakes in that regard.

Like adding the 100% rep bonus
Or reducing valor prices by 25-50%
Or adding better BoEs
Or increasing the droprate in LFRs
Or giving the 522 neck
Or giving reputation through dungeons
Or reducing the ilvl for ToT LFR
Or make Elder Charms drop on the new isles

Because that doesn't sound like anything a hardcore in average 510 by the end of 5.1 would need.

I wonder what your opinion of MoP would be if dungeons were the lootfest you hoped for, and LFR presumably giving guaranteed items through some obscure mean,
You'd probably be complaining that you have nothing to do. But that seems to be fine, you chose when you wanted to spend a couple of hours an evening or two and suddenly you're ready to raid the newest raid on Normal.

Yeah, that would've worked if Blizzards intent was to make a major patch last for a total of two weeks

Theirs actually no mistakes in that at all. Even with all the improvements the minority of children who don't want me to get gear and who don't want to feel "invalidated" because of new dungeons giving instant catch up are being catered to. None of those are instant catch ups and are in fact still loaded with grind. In other words those kids who are mad about me getting shinies so easily can still feel good that I had to "work" for it.

If MoP was like cataclysm and dungeons were a loot fest I would be great. I don't want LFR to be a loot fest but without getting gear out of dungeons I've found that I've simple gotten less reward in this game. I'd have lots to do. In cataclysm I played for months before I got bored. It took me literally 5-6 months. IN mists I was done in the first month.

Even in 4.0 the patches lasted for longer than 2 weeks and I had tabards and valor and gear from dungeons out the asshole. I'll say it again here's a very simple list of suggestions.

REmove the rep requirement from the valor gear
INcrease valor gains
Increase valor cap

You'll still have LOTS to do, I keep getting told Mists adds so much so my MODERATE suggestions shouldn't leave you with nothing to do. UNless ya know mists is really lacking in that regard and needs the artificial gates and grinds to keep you people interested. But that isn't true right?

[Duster505]

5 man dungeons - like it or not... are the core of cooperated driven content in WOW. When a developer decides to not add new 5 mans for entire expansion - then many players that have played for long time will not be coming back to the expansion. Scenarios and LFR do not create the coop feeling that 5 mans do. So Blizzard is doing alot of damage by not adding more 5 mans in MOP. The expansion that already has the fewest 5 mans of any expansion.

You only need to look at the reactions now after 5.2 from players. There is lack of things for players to do in week 1 since LFR is not gonna be opened up. So its back to dailies....

[MasterHamster]

I'll say it again here's a very simple list of suggestions.

REmove the rep requirement from the valor gear
INcrease valor gains
Increase valor cap

You'll still have LOTS to do, I keep getting told Mists adds so much so my MODERATE suggestions shouldn't leave you with nothing to do. UNless ya know mists is really lacking in that regard and needs the artificial gates and grinds to keep you people interested. But that isn't true right?

Great suggestions, too bad they make factions obsolete, make us stand around alt-tabbed in capitals, make 5.0 raids irrelevant, and lets us gear up way too quickly. So no, unlike now, that would actually make me lose interest.
4.3 mistakes all over.

[Leonard McCoy]

Great suggestions, too bad they make factions obsolete, make us stand around alt-tabbed in capitals, make 5.0 raids irrelevant, and lets us gear up way too quickly. So no, unlike now, that would actually make me lose interest.
4.3 mistakes all over.

Wait what? Why would they make you stand around alt tabbed in capitals? I Thought there was soooooooooooo much to do in this game? What happened? Labeling it 4.3 mistakes is cute. In the future when people shit on mists as being the crappiest expansion ever I'm sure I'll start labeling 5.x mistakes as well. Subs continue to bleed. Tick Tock.

[MasterHamster]

Wait what? Why would they make you stand around alt tabbed in capitals? I Thought there was soooooooooooo much to do in this game? What happened? Labeling it 4.3 mistakes is cute. In the future when people shit on mists as being the crappiest expansion ever I'm sure I'll start labeling 5.x mistakes as well. Subs continue to bleed. Tick Tock.

My current playstyle when it comes to gear on a new 90:
Buy some BoEs
Do dungeons for 463 in most slots
Do LFR when able,
Work on factions while in queue for LFR or dungeons, or perhaps a scenario
Spend earned valor on unlocked valor items, unlocking a new level of reputation with Klaxxi or GL
Getting Spirit of Harmonies for some crafts
Work on iLvl to 470 while doing perhaps some Shado-Pan, and later i480
Complement weekly valor cap with dungeons and scenarios

Your suggestion would make this:
Hit 90
Do dungeons ad infinitum
Buy ToT level valor gear, because fuck progression.

4.3 had little reason for me to ever leave a city, since the most efficient way to progress was to just queue over and over. When it doesn't regard gear, I usually try to find some rare pets, or one of those BoA rares lying around, Pandaria treasures. You know, reasons to not sit alt-tabbed in Org.
Your proposal takes away so much gameplay (or unrewarding grinding as you call it, in an MMO) in favor of ease, it's ridiculous.
So far the sub loss from 4.3, when your heaven was reality, is unbeaten.

[Leonard McCoy]

My current playstyle when it comes to gear on a new 90:
Buy some BoEs
Do dungeons for 463 in most slots
Do LFR when able,
Work on factions while in queue for LFR or dungeons, or perhaps a scenario
Spend earned valor on unlocked valor items
Getting Spirit of Harmonies for some crafts
Work on iLvl to 470 and later 480

Your suggestion would make this:
Hit 90
Do dungeons ad infinitum
Buy ToT level valor gear.

Since 4.3 had little reason for me to ever leave a city, since the most efficient way to progress was to just queue over and over.
Your proposal takes away so much gameplay (or unrewarding grinding as you call it, in an MMO) in favor of ease, it's ridiculous.

You don't have to do dungeons ad infinitum. Who says you have to do dungeons ad infinitum? Why does me being able to run dungeons for gear necesarilly mean you can't do dailies or pvp or buy boes or do ANYTHING that you listed? Why can't you choose to take it slow? why do i have to be forced to do this other crap and take it slow?

It's not ridiculous in the slightest. I thought mists was loaded with content. My MODERATE suggestions somehow make all that content disappear in no time. what happened to all the content?

[HardCoder]

Your suggestion would make this:
Hit 90
Do dungeons ad infinitum
Buy ToT level valor gear, because fuck progression.

I was actually pretty happy running dungeons ad infinitum. I completed 130 solo queued troll instances during 4.1 and 4.2, in addition to whatever else. It was crazy, but it was something to do.

Now I just have LFR and quests/dailies/pet battles/solo content out the ass.

[Leonard McCoy]

I was actually pretty happy running dungeons ad infinitum. I completed 130 solo queued troll instances during 4.1 and 4.2, in addition to whatever else. It was crazy, but it was something to do.

Now I just have LFR and quests/dailies/pet battles/solo content out the ass.

And it was rewarding and it encouraged me and my small group of friends to play together. We were good, we never found the dungeons hard and we made out like bandits. It was great. I miss it already.

[MasterHamster]

You don't have to do dungeons ad infinitum. Who says you have to do dungeons ad infinitum? Why does me being able to run dungeons for gear necesarilly mean you can't do dailies or pvp or buy boes or do ANYTHING that you listed? Why can't you choose to take it slow? why do i have to be forced to do this other crap and take it slow?

It's not ridiculous in the slightest. I thought mists was loaded with content. My MODERATE suggestions somehow make all that content disappear in no time. what happened to all the content?

You've said it yourself, players choose the easiest route. Your suggestion makes dailies obsolete, which makes factions obsolete (better gear from valor), which makes world interaction obsolete for progression.
While I am not rushing anything, neither factions or making sure I cap valor on every 90 I have, I won't slow myself down deliberately. MoP is filled with content, but they lose their part under your faceroll suggestions.

So "what happened to all the content"?
-Hey, let's do MSV, Heart of Fear or ToES!
-Lol wtf, you can get i500 by doing dungeons

That happened.

[Deleted]

I remember when they brought out the ICC 5 mans, yeah.... everyone loved those....

[MasterHamster]

I remember when they brought out the ICC 5 mans, yeah.... everyone loved those....

They were okay. Too bad I then stopped having any reason to run the older ones.
And keep farming those for Emblems. (or was it already converted to justice/valor by then?)

Essentially the latter part of WotLK was dungeons -> ICC 10normal.
All other raids forgotten, cept TotC25 pugs

And it was rewarding and it encouraged me and my small group of friends to play together. We were good, we never found the dungeons hard and we made out like bandits. It was great. I miss it already.

Missing a time when you essentially had two dungeons in total to run due to higher reward.
Well, the forums told another tale during that period.

[Leonard McCoy]

You've said it yourself, players choose the easiest route. Your suggestion makes dailies obsolete, which makes factions obsolete (better gear from valor), which makes world interaction obsolete for progression.
While I am not rushing anything, neither factions or making sure I cap valor on every 90 I have, I won't slow myself down deliberately. MoP is filled with content, but they lose their part under your faceroll suggestions.

So "what happened to all the content"?
-Hey, let's do MSV, Heart of Fear or ToES!
-Lol wtf, you can get i500 by doing dungeons

That happened.

And it was a good thing. I don't understand why forcing players to go back to do old content is such a novel idea or even one worth pursuing. It just adds more grind to the game and adds more gates for players who want to see current content. Not sit around grinding old stuff. Why won't you slow yourself down deliberately? Why can't you choose to do daililes and why can't I choose to run heroics ad nauseum? I agree players choose the easiest route well now you know why dailies are forced. Because not doing them is a more difficult route.

Even with what you said I thought mists was loaded with content. My SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE suggestion to help increase the pace of the game SLIGHTLY somehow invalidated all that content? WEll then it didn't have very content did it? It was all just gated to appear that way.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 11:12 AM ----------

Missing a time when you essentially had two dungeons in total to run due to higher reward.
Well, the forums told another tale during that period.

Mostly cauise they were to hard for some. The forums tell quite a tale now actually.

[ZeroEdgeir]

And it was a good thing. I don't understand why forcing players to go back to do old content is such a novel idea or even one worth pursuing. It just adds more grind to the game and adds more gates for players who want to see current content. Not sit around grinding old stuff. Why won't you slow yourself down deliberately? Why can't you choose to do daililes and why can't I choose to run heroics ad nauseum? I agree players choose the easiest route well now you know why dailies are forced. Because not doing them is a more difficult route.

Even with what you said I thought mists was loaded with content. My SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE suggestion to help increase the pace of the game SLIGHTLY somehow invalidated all that content? WEll then it didn't have very content did it? It was all just gated to appear that way.

Okay, so the developers who spend MONTHS making Throne of Thunder (as per a recent interview on the front page, it was started at about the time MoP launched), and obviously spent months before that making Mogu'Shan Vaults, Heart of Fear, and Terrace of Endless Spring, should have all that work completely invalidated within the same expansion, by a singular patch, just to appease a much smaller portion of the player-base that wants more 5-mans?

I'm all for options of content, but Blizzard has faith in the current end-game content model they got going, as do I. Will it be perfect for all 9.6mil subs? Not a snowball's chance in hell will it. This thread alone proves it (the hundreds of thousands that are vocal here, other fansites, official forums, etc). Will it be used and enjoyed by the silent majority (the millions that don't visit forums)? You can bet your monthly sub on it that it will be.

It might not be what you want, but for every one person who doesn't like it, more often than not, there is gonna be a lot more that do. You don't seem to like the idea of challenging 5-mans, cause otherwise, you and your friends would be neck-deep in Challenge Modes. You just want a method to facilitate character progression without having to interact with the world outside your little social circle, do dailies, or anything else. You want the game to be "multiplayer" and not "massive multiplayer". You wanna sit in Org/SW and just queue up for loot and do nothing else. Those days are over, time to get out and participate in the content being developed.

[Leonard McCoy]

Okay, so the developers who spend MONTHS making Throne of Thunder (as per a recent interview on the front page, it was started at about the time MoP launched), and obviously spent months before that making Mogu'Shan Vaults, Heart of Fear, and Terrace of Endless Spring, should have all that work completely invalidated within the same expansion, by a singular patch, just to appease a much smaller portion of the player-base that wants more 5-mans?

I'm all for options of content, but Blizzard has faith in the current end-game content model they got going, as do I. Will it be perfect for all 9.6mil subs? Not a snowball's chance in hell will it. This thread alone proves it (the hundreds of thousands that are vocal here, other fansites, official forums, etc). Will it be used and enjoyed by the silent majority (the millions that don't visit forums)? You can bet your monthly sub on it that it will be.

It might not be what you want, but for every one person who doesn't like it, more often than not, there is gonna be a lot more that do. You don't seem to like the idea of challenging 5-mans, cause otherwise, you and your friends would be neck-deep in Challenge Modes. You just want a method to facilitate character progression without having to interact with the world outside your little social circle, do dailies, or anything else. You want the game to be "multiplayer" and not "massive multiplayer". You wanna sit in Org/SW and just queue up for loot and do nothing else. Those days are over, time to get out and participate in the content being developed.

Yea. It's 2013 here people. You don't get hung up in the past you move the fuck on. I mean first of all I don't particularly care about their end of things. They spend months on it and it gets consumed and used up and it's enjoyed. That's the point. Attempting to stretch that out for as long as possible not only makes it feel grindy and stale it makes it feel cheap. Second of all I don't think it's a minority. In fact it's only BECOME a minority because the developers aren't supporting it as play style anymore. Put the gear behind it and voila look at that. It will get used. Exactly what they did to dailies.

Not every change is a good change and the label MMO is frankly meaningless. I don't care for such labels and i don't think the developers should get hung up on them. If people are interested in doing instanced content then they should provide and support that playstyle, I want the method to facilitate character progression that I enjoy with my friends. Theirs nothing wrong with that and I don't see why yourw ants and mine have to conflict.

[Elim Garak]

Okay, so the developers who spend MONTHS making Throne of Thunder (as per a recent interview on the front page, it was started at about the time MoP launched), and obviously spent months before that making Mogu'Shan Vaults, Heart of Fear, and Terrace of Endless Spring, should have all that work completely invalidated within the same expansion, by a singular patch, just to appease a much smaller portion of the player-base that wants more 5-mans?

Yes, because it's not about devs and their feelings - it's about customers and money. And you have no numbers to speak about the size of the portion of the players who wants more 5-mans or other means to by-bass outdated content (5.0). Yes it is outdated.