No new 5-player dungeons in 5.4

[Leonard McCoy]

Riiight...
Let's keep the argument in the current expansion, yes?

The fact that WoW was still attracting way more brand new players than people leaving?
Unavoidable. Would happen even if WotLK was the current expansion.



Yes, maybe then they can make an expansion without raids, only dungeons, and you get the best gear when you enter.
Then after doing all the dungeons you get to decide whether you want to keep playing even though you aren't being rewarded.

Right. That's the extreme they'll move to. I mean they were dumb enough to move to mists so why not? I guess when we get the dungeon only expansion you'll be leaving us? Or are you sheeple enough to keep paying them?

[Jtbrig7390]

Riiight...
Let's keep the argument in the current expansion, yes?

When it comes to keeping old content relevant then no you can't. people have asked for a long time now to update all old raids to make them relevant.

This is blizzard's pore way of doing what Everquest did and that was keeping old content relevant.

I bet that this whole special feature blizzard plans to add before the end of MOP is to scale ether raids or player's to the same level so that that content becomes Relevant. Wow dose not work that way it has not worked that way since TBC and believe it or not people hated that back in TBC because if there guild lost a few core raid members that could mean they just went from raiding BT back to Kara.

There is a reason this did not work before and history will prove itself again. when blizzard finally decide's to pull its head out of its ass ill be more then happy to return.

But ill say it now. Keep doing what the 5% of the WOW pop wants and all that will be left is 5% of the WOW pop.

[Deleted]

It's only an unworthy hobby because of foolish decisions on the part of the developers. I guess after this month is done I'll wait till the next expansion where they can admit how wrong they were and what they learned from mists and we can hash out this argument all over again.

I bet the ideology on progression will stay the same because it works so well. Seriously beside few whiners on forums like you I hear only praise for MoP. You keep saying WoW bleeds subs but all we know WoW lost 400k subs that was probably even less then anyone expected, after boom of expansion launch.

[ringpriest]

Frankly I find it a bit amazing how you can think that a new tier should completely remove older content from progression.

Because it should, it always did ('cept for vanilla) and it worked well for PLAYERS.

Not just vanilla. As I remember it, the model Garak is describing didn't actually exist until post-Ulduar in Wrath. There were some options to upgrade some via farming tokens from heroics in very late BC and in mid-Wrath, but the best stuff was always always from raiding until Blizzard started adding 5-mans in Wrath.

[MasterHamster]

It's only an unworthy hobby because of foolish decisions on the part of the developers. I guess after this month is done I'll wait till the next expansion where they can admit how wrong they were and what they learned from mists and we can hash out this argument all over again.

It's weird how the majority of players didn't quit when they realized the foolish decisions.
I still find it funny how you want to put sub losses into arguments when your Queueaclysm saw the biggest drop ever. But that's what happens when a patch that has near instant catchups lasts for like a year. Why keep playing when you've gotten all the gear you can get (assuming you don't raid) in a few weeks.

But yeah, I'll eagerly await this discussions return, when the "major" shift in design is that valor now earns you some valor pieces, and the rest from story-driven factions.
I guess the only thing that could convince you is a major sub gain. Ahh who am I kidding, you'd just call them sheep.

[Stormspellz]

They will continue with their shitty priorities, boring scenarios and lolpokemon tuning. I love running dungeons and it's the main reason I would be intrested keeping my sub up. They offer so much this expansion, but nothing that would keep me intrested.

Scenarios? Reharsed world content where you get to do some quest with low chance of useful loot.

You know you enjoy pokemon in WoW if it's the only good game you have played...

don't get why you call scenarios rehashed content when 5mans never change as well?

[MasterHamster]

But ill say it now. Keep doing what the 5% of the WOW pop wants and all that will be left is 5% of the WOW pop

You think 95% of all players want dungeons to throw near top level gear at you?
What did 4.3 do to us...

Right. That's the extreme they'll move to. I mean they were dumb enough to move to mists so why not? I guess when we get the dungeon only expansion you'll be leaving us? Or are you sheeple enough to keep paying them?

I'll quit when a major content patch only keeps me busy for a couple of weeks.
Your design. The design that Blizzard abandoned in favour of one that works.

[Deleted]

Are people complaining to complain or are new five mans really that big of a deal? LFR fills the role of getting gear.

Getting gear, that's only one aspect. The other aspect of 5-mans ever (and 10-mans in WotLK) was spending time with people whose company you enjoyed or at least didn't abhor. Sure people did solo-q for LFD at times, but most guilds could reasonably fill 5 or 10 spots with "agreeable" people. That doesn't work for LFR; given the current WoW clientele, you will have multiple morons in a random 25 man sample and forcing me to interact with morons is nothing I am willing to accept or even pay for. Same for PvP, same for CRZ. Many players are younger and dumber than people I am willing to put up with in RL. There is no effing chance in hell I will put up with them within the confines of an entertainment product with monthly subscriptions.

ps. And "10-man raids are still here" doesn't cut it. Just compare the number of people doing them during WotLK with the the number of people doing them now.

[Deleted]

I would like some new 5 mans, but I do think scenarios are better for story telling.

So if I was to choice between say

8 boss raid tier + 3 Dungeons or 13 boss raid tier + 3 scenarios I would 100% go with the latter.

I 100% hated the way the implemented 5 mans in Cata they completely made the previous tier of 5 mans pointless, it really did not help that they got easier each tier as well instead of harder, this means at the end of Cata we where running the same 5 man over and over again till we vomitied.

So again if my choice for gaining valor outside raiding was.

3 5 mans people run

or

9 5 mans, 15 + Scenerios and Dailies

Again I will go with the latter.

I do have an intresting question for all the unhappy people in this thread.

Would updating the loot be middle ground? (this is something they did in SWtoR).

So when the next raid got released they updated all the drops in the existing 5 mans to 489 iLvl would take away the catch up sting a bit?

[Fagatronics]

There is a reason wotlk had the most high sub count in wow history and will forever hold this title.

Wow dose not work that way it has not worked that way since TBC and believe it or not people hated that back in TBC because if there guild lost a few core raid members that could mean they just went from raiding BT back to Kara.

There is a reason this did not work before and history will prove itself again.

While TBC was riddled with problems, there is a misconception on how popular it was compared to Wrath. This was a post I made last week in reference to this which I think should help. I hope this isn't considered spam:

There are a lot of myths about the growth that WotLK really had on subscriptions.

January 2007 there were 8 million subscribers at the beginning of TBC and peaked at 11 million in October 2008 prior to the launch of Wrath. One week after the launch of Wrath, Blizz announced 11.5 million subscribers. It wasn't until October 7, 2010 that Blizzard announced subs were over 12 mil.

Source: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=2847812
Source: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=2847816
Source: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=2847881

So essentially in 2 years TBC gained ~3 mil subs while Wratch gained ~1 mil (500k if you don't include the first week subs bump). Even though Wrath had the higher sub number, TBC had MUCH more growth. And growth has significantly slowed down since TBC and is actually on the decline since Wrath.

[Jtbrig7390]

So essentially in 2 years TBC gained ~3 mil subs while Wratch gained ~1 mil (500k if you don't include the first week subs bump). Even though Wrath had the higher sub number, TBC had MUCH more growth. And growth has significantly slowed down since TBC and is actually on the decline since Wrath.

No its been on a decline since Cata. because even at the end of wrath right after RS came out and ICC has been out almost nearly 1year wow was a little over 12.5mil subs "there was a 500k sub gain in the middle of ICC and cata's release".

Subs did not start dropping until after Cata came out.

The link to what I just said has been showed many times feel free to look it up on ur own.

[Fagatronics]

No its been on a decline since Cata. because even at the end of wrath right after RS came out and ICC has been out almost nearly 1year wow was a little over 12.5mil subs "there was a 500k sub gain in the middle of ICC and cata's release".

Subs did not start dropping until after Cata came out.

I would like to see proof of this 12.5 mil sub you speak of since the source I gave was after RS came out and just 2 months before Cata.

Maybe I should have said subs have declined "since the END of wrath" because that was my intention.

Edit: my quotes were from the official Blizz Anouncement page. If the 12.5 mil sub announcement isn't on there then I'm inclined to believe it doesn't exist.

[Jtbrig7390]

Edit: my quotes were from the official Blizz Anouncement page. If the 12.5 mil sub announcement isn't on there then I'm inclined to believe it doesn't exist.

I will admit I couldn't find where I seen the 12.5mil so I could be wrong.

Can't remember right off hand where I seen it so you may be right. but even still WOW peaked its high's amount in subs in wrath and even got subs while ICC was out for a year. there was no major sub drop until cata and the sub bleed has been going since.

[Seefer]

It's only an unworthy hobby because of foolish decisions on the part of the developers. I guess after this month is done I'll wait till the next expansion where they can admit how wrong they were and what they learned from mists and we can hash out this argument all over again.

Kinda funny, they lost a ton of subs during Crapaclysm and they added your precious 5 mans, and they acknowledged they made a ton of mistakes during that expansion now all of sudden the casuals creep out yet again because they did something for the raiders even though this expansion is very casual content heavy, face it, nothing is EVER good enough for you people in this game and your sub will not be missed by me in the least.

[Jtbrig7390]

Kinda funny, they lost a ton of subs during Crapaclysm and they added your precious 5 mans, and they acknowledged they made a ton of mistakes during that expansion now all of sudden the casuals creep out yet again because they did something for the raiders even though this expansion is very casual content heavy, face it, nothing is EVER good enough for you people in this game and your sub will not be missed by me in the least.

No this xpansion is not casual friendly.

The normal mode raids have already been said to be harder then cata's.

The the forced daily grind because valor gear was behind it.

The only thing in this xpac that is casual friendly is the pokemon battles and the 5man's that are currently out along with LFR I guess. Everything else is a major time sink and major time sinks are not casual friendly.

Comparing the amount of guilds who finished T11 to T14 prove's this.

[HardCoder]

Kinda funny, they lost a ton of subs during Crapaclysm and they added your precious 5 mans, and they acknowledged they made a ton of mistakes during that expansion now all of sudden the casuals creep out yet again because they did something for the raiders even though this expansion is very casual content heavy, face it, nothing is EVER good enough for you people in this game and your sub will not be missed by me in the least.

Okay, given that "you people" is part of the subscriber base, what exactly is your suggestion?

There is this assumption that "getting better" = "more subscribers." Now, it may just be that the genre is work out and WoW could get better every year and lose 1 million subscribers each year anyway. But let's suppose that the drop in subscriptions reflects something wrong with the game.

What would you fix?

Or do you want a smaller, less popular game? Because you could have that now without waiting for WoW to die out, by going to any other MMORPG.

[Seefer]

No this xpansion is not casual friendly.

The normal mode raids have already been said to be harder then cata's.

The the forced daily grind because valor gear was behind it.

The only thing in this xpac that is casual friendly is the pokemon battles and the 5man's that are currently out along with LFR I guess. Everything else is a major time sink and major time sinks are not casual friendly.

Comparing the amount of guilds who finished T11 to T14 prove's this.

"We want gear but hey we aren't willing to do what is required to get gear" dailies don't take long to do at all so it fits the time frame, if you want gear do something for it other than sit in a major city and queue which honestly takes just as long as dailies if you are a DPS.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 08:57 PM ----------

Okay, given that "you people" is part of the subscriber base, what exactly is your suggestion?

There is this assumption that "getting better" = "more subscribers." Now, it may just be that the genre is work out and WoW could get better every year and lose 1 million subscribers each year anyway. But let's suppose that the drop in subscriptions reflects something wrong with the game.

What would you fix?

Or do you want a smaller, less popular game? Because you could have that now without waiting for WoW to die out, by going to any other MMORPG.

What would I fix? Go back to the BC model, get rid of LFD and LFR because they have helped kill guilds and community, make heroics HEROIC again, make epics matter not make them feel like a blue, and lastly..........get rid of guild levels and perks, it helped kill small and new guilds.

[Jtbrig7390]

What would I fix? Go back to the BC model, get rid of LFD and LFR because they have helped kill guilds and community, make heroics HEROIC again, make epics matter not make them feel like a blue.

Was you asleep the whole time cata came out because wow went back to the TBC model for 90% of cata "besides the LFD system" and they lost 3 million subs.

TBC is over its done its gone forever bye bye. get over it and stop trying to turn wow into something it use to be.

You and blizzard both need to get this in your head. WOW has changed it can't go back to what it was without losing 90% of its pop if not more.

Don't like that wow isn't TBC anymore then by all means fucken leave cause I am really tired of blizzard lissing to the people who want things to be like TBC and ruining a game I enjoyed for many years.


Rift is as close as to a TBC model has gotten since wow-TBC and you see how high its pop got....

You want a TBC style go play rift or some other MMO and leave wow.

[Deleted]

No its been on a decline since Cata. because even at the end of wrath right after RS came out and ICC has been out almost nearly 1year wow was a little over 12.5mil subs "there was a 500k sub gain in the middle of ICC and cata's release".

Subs did not start dropping until after Cata came out.

The link to what I just said has been showed many times feel free to look it up on ur own.

Ofc, all of you are forgetting that half of the playerbase played TBC until 31/08/2010, 1 month after WOTLK was launched in China subs went up to 12 million.
11.5 million players were playing at release of WOTLK.
I don't think you can treat WRATH model like a second coming of Christ because in reality it got 500k players to game when Vanilla and TBC models got more then 11 million.

So when did WoW started declining? When half of the player base was in WOTLK and half in Cataclysm. Both worst expansion then TBC or classic WoW if you count subs.

Oh yes, and why Cataclysm was dropping subs:

During the call, CEO of Blizzard Entertainment Mike Morhaime pointed out that World of Warcraft had fallen again to pre-Cataclysm subscriber levels -- 11.4 million subscribers at the end of March, down from its peak of 12 million. Subscriber levels do not decline linearly, he pointed out, stating that they fluctuate based on how quickly players consume and complete content. Players are consuming Cataclysm's content faster than any expansion before it, so subscriber levels started to drop off more quickly than they have previously.

TBH, I don't understand why change in game philosophy after TBC. Model that obviously worked was replaced and now we have what we have.

[Jtbrig7390]

--snip--

Sorry I could really care less what Mike Morhaime thinks. He say whatever he wish's but that dose not make his words true or right.

If they think subs dropped due to content getting finished so fast then blizzard has a lot more problems then they relise.

So let me ask you this if the cause of subs dropping in cata was because content was getting consumed fast.

Why are the subs still dropping now in MOP......

The numbers show content isn't getting consumed fast now hell barely any guilds finished T14 before ToT came out.