Vol'jin on, "Why should we (Alliance) help you?" (5.3 spoilers)

[Combatbutler]

Which is why victory over Garrosh is meaningless. The Horde will not become any stronger or weaker. We all know in advance that we're safe from Alliance finishing Horde altogether once they're in Orgrimmar, and we know that with Garrosh or without him things will be the same. Just not as fun.

It would be interesting if the Alliance rebuilds the ruins of Tiragarde, to keep an eye on them for example.

[Trassk]

What if the alliance just sat back while Garrosh continues to slaughter darkspeare trolls? Where is Vol'jin's sense of urgency and humility in his time of need? The alliance doesn't really need him.

And yet the alliance believes itself to strong it can take down Garrosh alone, which given what Vol'jin says, if they don't agree to a truce to take him down, he will take them out too if they insist on remaining his enemy.

[checking facts]

The real qúestion is, where are all the fat humans in WoW?

[Combatbutler]

And yet the alliance believes itself to strong it can take down Garrosh alone, which given what Vol'jin says, if they don't agree to a truce to take him down, he will take them out too if they insist on remaining his enemy.

Lets be honest if the entire Alliance would march on Orgrimmar ,and use every weapon in their arsenal, Garrosh doesn't stand a chance.

[Every Pwny]

And yet the alliance believes itself to strong it can take down Garrosh alone, which given what Vol'jin says, if they don't agree to a truce to take him down, he will take them out too if they insist on remaining his enemy.

The alliance can just wait around until Garrosh destroys the Darkspeare, they have no reason to go into Org right now. They can just contain them and let the horde weaken itself. Vol'jin and the Darkspeare are running out of time. Also if the Alliance really wanted to use superweapons like the horde has no problem doing, the siege would be over quickly.

[Trassk]

Lets be honest if the entire Alliance would march on Orgrimmar and they would use every weapon in their arsenal Garrosh doesn't stand a chance.

Exactly, they would use all there resources on Garrosh, which is what you need to win such a conflict, and once its spent they have nothing left to use, the horde rebels then come in with there resources and numbers (cause lets face it many troops will be killed in such a siege), and wipe them out.

This is why the only thing that makes sense and anyone with common sense would follow is to make a truce to get the job done.

[Combatbutler]

Exactly, they would use all there resources on Garrosh, which is what you need to win such a conflict, and once its spent they have nothing left to use, the horde rebels then come in with there resources and numbers (cause lets face it many troops will be killed in such a siege), and wipe them out.

I doubt that it would be one hell of a battle royale with almost every capable fighter dieing there, unleashing their most deadliest weapons of mass destruction upon each other, no matter who would be left standing the victory would taste as bitter as defeat.

[Keile]

He isn't hating on Alliance.

He is simply saying: "Do it your way and die, no skin off my back. Or do it MY way and live, and we both win."

[Frozen Death Knight]

The horde are though. Think about it, they are actully fighting there own. The alliance are simply fighting someone that call an enemy, but the horde is having to kill its own soldiers. That is as right up there with willing to solve the problem as it gets.

Also, if the alliance makes a think about feeling the horde rebels will stab them in the back, the horde has as much legitimate reason to believe the alliance will do the same.

So trying to solve their own mess now proves that the Horde wishes to change their ways towards their longtime enemy? How exactly is this rebellion based on improving the relation with the Alliance, now again? I completely missed that part in the script, since I only recall them forming this revolution because Garrosh was a douchebag and has been pushing around the other faction leaders to a point where they will not take it anymore. If it was because of moral reasons then they have done a terrible job at distancing themselves from the atrocities that the Horde has committed under Garrosh. Claiming to not agree with Garrosh' direction when doing nothing about it until now just makes the other Horde leaders more or less accomplishes whether they like it or not.

Yet the Alliance has never unprovoked declared war against the Horde at any point in the history of WarCraft. While Garrosh may be hugely blamed for the current impossibility for the Alliance to make peace, they still have done more than the Horde leaders ever have and ever will. It is pretty much guaranteed that even if the Alliance takes the higher road, the Horde will never be able to do the same. The Horde simply never learns.

[Trassk]

So trying to solve their own mess now proves that they wish to change their ways towards their longtime enemy? How exactly is this rebellion based on improving the relation with the Alliance, now again? I completely missed that part in the script, since I only recall them forming this revolution because Garrosh was a douchebag and has been pushing around the other faction leaders to a point where they will not take it anymore. If it was because of moral reasons then they have done a terrible job at distancing themselves from the atrocities that the Horde has committed under Garrosh. Claiming to not agree with Garrosh' direction when doing nothing about it until now just makes the other Horde leaders more or less accomplishes whether they like it or not.

Yet the Alliance has never unprovoked declared war against the Horde at any point in the history of WarCraft. While Garrosh may be hugely blamed for the current impossibility for the Alliance to make peace, they still have done more than the Horde leaders ever have and ever will. It is pretty much guaranteed that even if the Alliance take the higher road, the Horde will never be able to do the same. The Horde simply never learns.

why should the horde keep proving itself to the alliance? It wouldn't matter if all horde leaders appeared before Varian and tried to make a pack, the alliance simply won't accept it.

[Frozen Death Knight]

why should the horde keep proving itself to the alliance? It wouldn't matter if all horde leaders appeared before Varian and tried to make a pack, the alliance simply won't accept it.

The Alliance apparently has to, since they need to take the higher road here. If the Horde cannot do the same, then they are hardly honoring the Alliance's decision to leave the Horde alone. It would be quite a dishonor to the entire Horde if they went to war with the Alliance after the siege if Varian and his troops just walk away from Orgrimmar with no strings attached. Not many would make such a decision and that should be respected in the highest regard if you ask me.

[Haven]

It would be interesting if the Alliance rebuilds the ruins of Tiragarde, to keep an eye on them for example.

Experience tells me that "it would be interesting if" equals "it will never happen" in this game.

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 01:49 AM ----------

why should the horde keep proving itself to the alliance? It wouldn't matter if all horde leaders appeared before Varian and tried to make a pack, the alliance simply won't accept it.

Because Garrosh. And Sylvanas. And perhaps Gallywix. Horde is not holy, unlike Alliance.

[Talen]

I don't think he is bluffing though. Without the aid of the rebels, the Alliance is going to take heavy casualties in the siege. The rebellion should not have a problem "cleaning up" what's left of the exhausted Orcs and Alliance.

Note that Durtor is Horde territory, they have the "home advantage". They have a good foothold and they know the land. Alliance would have fight a lot harder without the aid if Vol'jin.

Unless they, for example got smart and let Garrosh and Vol'jin fight it out and weaken themselves....a plan with next to zero downside for the Alliance.Garroshes home field advantage will be meaningless after Vol'jin kills half his army and destroys Orgrimmars fortifications.

The end result is the Horde is neutralised, the Alliance regains its lands, it gains the peace and security it wants and it gets this at a far lower cost than previously imagined.

So....why exactly do they have to fight Garrosh? What has turned them from fighting the Horde to just fighting Garrosh? Why should they help a being who just threatened to turn their dead over to Sylvanas and then claim they ca't be trusted because rescuing his friend wasn't enough of a show of good faith. Why should the Alliance hep when by standing back and letting Vol'jin and Garrosh fight it out they gain everything they need and want?

No...i don't think he was bluffing. But that makes Vol'jin stupid and dumber than Garrosh, and it makes the Alliance look weak and a bunch of wannabe groupies.

EJL

[checking facts]

Because Garrosh. And Sylvanas. And perhaps Gallywix. Horde is not holy, unlike Alliance.

if the alliance is so holy, why do so many villains come from alliance races?

arthas was a human. he even killed nerzhul's half of their soul in Rise of the Lich King. so was kel'thuzad.

illidan was a night elf. so was fandral staghelm and maiev shadowsong. oh, and the nobles of the night elves tried to destroy the world once.

kil'jaeden and archimonde were velen's brothers as the three leaders of the eredar race 25000 years ago.

remember the warlock who almost screwed the argent tournament up by summoning an EREDAAAR LORD OF THE BURNING LEGION? he was a gnome.

while not a villain, let's remember that magni bronzebeard was a really bad father. in the novels, moira complains about how he held it against her that she was born a girl

the alliance is as unholy as the horde. they are just not sincere enough to show it off.

[Talen]

And yet the alliance believes itself to strong it can take down Garrosh alone, which given what Vol'jin says, if they don't agree to a truce to take him down, he will take them out too if they insist on remaining his enemy.

All the Alliance has to do is wait and Vol'jin will see first hand how empty his threats are. He is dumb to even make them.

If VJ can't take down Garrosh by himself...and apparently he can't...he was stupid to start his rebellion now. He is stupid in not sending an emissary to the Alliance asking for help, just as he did with the Zandalari. He is stupid in making threats and alienating a power who can help his tribe survive.

If he can take Garrosh by himself then the Alliance shouldn't be aiding either side.It should stand back and let both sides annihilate each other.

Vol'jin should have been forced by events to start is rebellion early....before he was ready.
Vol'jin should be the one to approach the Alliance, the one to try and make a deal
The Alliance should have been given the option of standing by and letting Garrosh emerge leading a weaker but more unified Horde, or fulfilling its war aims by allying with Vol'jin.

EJL

[Deleted]

Unless they, for example got smart and let Garrosh and Vol'jin fight it out and weaken themselves....a plan with next to zero downside for the Alliance.Garroshes home field advantage will be meaningless after Vol'jin kills half his army and destroys Orgrimmars fortifications.

Who says such thing would happen? Why we keep ignoring ALL the new strength that Garrosh is getting, from armies of Dire Orcs and Proto-Dragons and the Heart of an Old God?

So....why exactly do they have to fight Garrosh?

Uhm... Theramore? Dalaran? Divine Bell? The fact that factions of the Alliance and Horde did called a ceasefire and agree to focus on Garrosh?

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 12:32 AM ----------

All the Alliance has to do is wait and Vol'jin will see first hand how empty his threats are. He is dumb to even make them.

If VJ can't take down Garrosh by himself...and apparently he can't...he was stupid to start his rebellion now. He is stupid in not sending an emissary to the Alliance asking for help, just as he did with the Zandalari. He is stupid in making threats and alienating a power who can help his tribe survive.

If he can take Garrosh by himself then the Alliance shouldn't be aiding either side.It should stand back and let both sides annihilate each other.

Vol'jin should have been forced by events to start is rebellion early....before he was ready.
Vol'jin should be the one to approach the Alliance, the one to try and make a deal
The Alliance should have been given the option of standing by and letting Garrosh emerge leading a weaker but more unified Horde, or fulfilling its war aims by allying with Vol'jin.

EJL

[Zaelsino]

All the Alliance has to do is wait and Vol'jin will see first hand how empty his threats are. He is dumb to even make them.

Probably worth bearing in mind that the Alliance player is there on a mission from his majesty's secret service to, explicitly, befriend the Darkspear tribe. This same player being stupid enough to run his or her mouth off to the tribe's chieftain is kind of asking for a reprisal, not to mention how it's endangering the reason the player's there in the first place.

[Haven]

if the alliance is so holy, why do so many villains come from alliance races?

arthas was a human. he even killed nerzhul's half of their soul in Rise of the Lich King. so was kel'thuzad.

illidan was a night elf. so was fandral staghelm and maiev shadowsong. oh, and the nobles of the night elves tried to destroy the world once.

kil'jaeden and archimonde were velen's brothers as the three leaders of the eredar race 25000 years ago.

remember the warlock who almost screwed the argent tournament up by summoning an EREDAAAR LORD OF THE BURNING LEGION? he was a gnome.

while not a villain, let's remember that magni bronzebeard was a really bad father. in the novels, moira complains about how he held it against her that she was born a girl

the alliance is as unholy as the horde. they are just not sincere enough to show it off.

I used to use most of those arguments myself, but Alliance die-hards beat that with "they weren't officially part of Alliance when they became villains" card. While, unfortunately, villains that come from the Horde, stay and die within Horde.

[Sky High]

So trying to solve their own mess now proves that the Horde wishes to change their ways towards their longtime enemy? How exactly is this rebellion based on improving the relation with the Alliance, now again? I completely missed that part in the script, since I only recall them forming this revolution because Garrosh was a douchebag and has been pushing around the other faction leaders to a point where they will not take it anymore. If it was because of moral reasons then they have done a terrible job at distancing themselves from the atrocities that the Horde has committed under Garrosh. Claiming to not agree with Garrosh' direction when doing nothing about it until now just makes the other Horde leaders more or less accomplishes whether they like it or not.

Yet the Alliance has never unprovoked declared war against the Horde at any point in the history of WarCraft. While Garrosh may be hugely blamed for the current impossibility for the Alliance to make peace, they still have done more than the Horde leaders ever have and ever will. It is pretty much guaranteed that even if the Alliance takes the higher road, the Horde will never be able to do the same. The Horde simply never learns.

maybe...JJUUUUST maybe. they are doing this for themselves? people need to stop bringing this up that the horde rebels are doing this to make things better with the alliance because as far as we have seen that is not even remotely true. the rebels want their horde back, if peace can come between them and the allies down the road, yippee! but in the mean time its making what they love and have fought for in the past mean what it should TO THEM.

and so the fuck what if the horde "never learns"? do you want them to learn? and learn what exactly? I'm not going to argue on the moral implications of what both sides have done because id agree with you on a lot of it and we would be going tit for tat for fucking ever. but the bottom line is the horde are the anti-heroes (of the story) or the good guys in their own eyes. and for the most part could give a fuck what their "enemies" care or think of them, and can you seriously tell me its really all that different with the allies? both sides are out to maintain and preserve their future. the methods and means are very different and range in moral standing.

[bohapjut]

What if the alliance just sat back while Garrosh continues to slaughter darkspeare trolls? Where is Vol'jin's sense of urgency and humility in his time of need? The alliance doesn't really need him.

Sure they don't need him, but they could save significant loss of life if they help Vol'jin secure Bladefist Bay for a landing.