Holy mother 10man nerf

[Deleted]

horridon and tortos did not need to be nerfed.

Omg you released the kracken !!! people in this thread will eat you alive
/brofist

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 05:07 PM ----------

I highly doubt it's all casual undergeared people posting here when MMO-champion consists of less than 4% of the player base. If they truly are, they are delusional but most people here understand when they are lacking gear and skill.

i thought that too. Then i spent 10 pages discussing and my opinion has reversed !

[Femoris]

If they were this fast to nerf the first couple bosses im worried about the bosses after. I think council was overtuned at release but the health nerf was enough, horridon and tortos did not need to be nerfed.

dont be the only hard boss after horridon and council is durumu until you get to lei shen ( and they're only hard because they require a certain amount of coordination while being able to heal and dps)

[Glorious Leader]

This post is absolutely horrendous AND false. TBC raiding model was great, but that's just my opinion... but stating hundreds of guilds were stuck 2 years in Karazhan is absolutely laughable. Why did i even bother responding...

Anyway, don't state opinions as fact, and don't over exaggerate - or blatantly lie - to get your points across. That's sad.

I would KILL for tbc raids, maybe not the model itself but the raids where fucking EASY as hell especially by comparison to ToT. Seriously our raid leader said something last night that got me thinking. He said every fight feels like muru this tier. Well I agree and disagree. Every fight is a cock block so I understand the principle but Muru is a fucking JOKE compared to what you have to run around in ToT with. I would kill for EASY ass tbc raids. Are you kidding me?

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 05:10 PM ----------

dont be the only hard boss after horridon and council is durumu until you get to lei shen ( and they're only hard because they require a certain amount of coordination while being able to heal and dps)

uhh yea I would expect more nerfs. Ji Kuun is also a massive 10 man cock block. Once they get more "data" you'll see more nerfs.

[clevin]

Yes, the average, and if the average raids 4 horus a wekk, NORMAL content should be tuned for them to be able to clear it in the 5 months it takes .

No. This would be a disaster.

It's a give and take between the game and the players. The game needs to be tuned so that most good players can complete normal when it's current. Part of that tuning is the number of bosses in a raid. After all, they could put 30 bosses in a raid, but even if there was no trash, that's simply not a number that people could get through in a reset. The sweet spot seems to be in the 10-15 range for the most part.

At the same time, players need to realize that they can't raid for 30minutes a week and expect to clear the tier. Nor can they raid for, say, 2 hours. in general, players need to realize that a raid will usually take at least a couple of nights or about 6-8 hours. More might be nice, but it's just that, nice, not mandatory. If a raid isn't willing to put in something like 6-8 hours a week, they should not expect to clear the tier (extending the lock aside).

So what if a raid can only run one night for 4 hours? Extend the lockout. Yes, you give up farming the early bosses, but there are consequences to every choice and your raid would be making the choice not to run more than 4 hours a week.

As it is my above average but not hardcore guild kills HoF, most of Terrace and Jinrokh in 6 hours. Before we stopped bothering with MSV the clear there took us 90 minutes. So I'd say that Blizzard is fine designing for a raid group that has a 6-8 hour base=.

ON Garalon... if someone's been trying him for all off 5.1 and hasn't killed him, they're bad. We took something like 6 or 7 tries and, while we out-geared it a bit, we weren't that much above level. Passing pheromones and a couple of other things takes a bit of coordination but, I'm sorry, it you struggle on him more than 2 or 3 resets you're either bad or have a very odd raid comp.

[Glorious Leader]

At the same time, players need to realize that they can't raid for 30minutes a week and expect to clear the tier. Nor can they raid for, say, 2 hours. in general, players need to realize that a raid will usually take at least a couple of nights or about 6-8 hours. More might be nice, but it's just that, nice, not mandatory. If a raid isn't willing to put in something like 6-8 hours a week, they should not expect to clear the tier (extending the lock aside).
.

Actually if you want to make any significant progress (say a boss a week) your gonna have to do more than two nights. Or extend raid lockouts. Both things we are looking into. As the raid gets further and further in and you get more bosses behind you and more trash behind you it start's to eat up more and more time that's also assuming you one shot every boss up until progression content. The ideal goal should be one night to farm content you've cleared and one night for progression. It's not gonna work out that easy unless you raid more than 6 hours I think. One of the downsides of such massive raid tiers.

This raid is honestly crushing the casual "middle class" of raiding. The overall difficulty is the primary problem but the trash you have to clear doesn't help either. We might try adding a sat raid but it's not likely going to happen. This tier has turned alot of folks off and they don't want to raid another day if at all possible.

[NRL1515]

How can you awesome, leet, heroic raiders not understand that more accessibility into NORMAL mode raids only helps you out?

The more people you have raiding normals, the more people will eventually want to try out heroic modes. The more people you have doing heroic modes, the bigger pool of players you can pull from. The bigger pool of players you have, then the more time and resources can be justified being spent on raids by Blizzard.

I know that I am a damned good raider. If I had the time or the means, I know I would find a decent heroic guild and push for server firsts and all that jazz. However, there are several reasons why I am not in a heroic guild. I can't devote however many hours a week due to a wife and a job and school. I love raiding. I love the feeling of coming together as a tight-knit group and overcoming obstacles to down a boss. I spend my down time during work or whatever to work out our strategies for the next boss, or read class guides to see if I can squeeze any more tanky-ness/dps/heals out of my toons. I go over logs to see who in our group could be doing better and how I can improve.

Unfortunately, the 10 man group I raid with is average. We only have 10 people on our roster because that's just how it is... recruiting on our server is a nightmare as either all the decent players have already found groups, or the 'sub-par' players have no idea what is required for 'NORMAL' mode raiding. We can only raid 2 nights a week for 6 hours total, and once in awhile RL steps in and we cannot raid that day. We have several good players, yes, but we have about 3-4 players in our group who, for the life of them, cannot devote the awareness or concentration to perform their optimal rotation while avoiding mechanics while switching targets immediately to interrupt. It's too much to ask of them. I can do it no problem, and it frustrates me at times because I feel like these people are holding me back. But I enjoy raiding with them, and we've been raiding together since Wrath on and off.

I have a feeling that MOST raiders can relate more to this than 'LOL normal mode is ez wtf just dps harder nubz'. 'If you cant down horridon in 15 tries u r bad and not tryin hard enuf go back and do t14 moar' is a terrible argument. Look, I don't expect our group to clear normal modes in 4 weeks and start working on heroic bosses, but we're not that bad to be stuck on the 2nd boss of the raid. We already have enough things working against us (6 hours of raid time a week, going back to t14 to TRY and pick up pieces that fill holes for people, trash that takes half the night to clear).

If you've already cleared ToT by this point, well done chaps. You guys have awesome groups and all your players are awesome. Unfortunately having 7 awesome people and 3 average players isn't enough to cut it in NORMAL modes. I'll see you guys down the road when LFR is the only difficulty available because of dwindling numbers.

[Femoris]

I would KILL for tbc raids, maybe not the model itself but the raids where fucking EASY as hell especially by comparison to ToT. Seriously our raid leader said something last night that got me thinking. He said every fight feels like muru this tier. Well I agree and disagree. Every fight is a cock block so I understand the principle but Muru is a fucking JOKE compared to what you have to run around in ToT with. I would kill for EASY ass tbc raids. Are you kidding me?

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 05:10 PM ----------



uhh yea I would expect more nerfs. Ji Kuun is also a massive 10 man cock block. Once they get more "data" you'll see more nerfs.

how is ji kuun a massive 10 man cock block as you put it when its only a 3% decrease from the previous boss while durumu is ~7% from guilds that killed ji kuun.....3% decrease between each boss seams about right as with 12 boss thats 36% less guilds that kill the first one than will kill the last one over a tier. putting it at 64% of guilds killing everything which is much higher than the 50% i see everyone in the thread arguing about. (also if you think its easier on 25m the 10m % decrease from megaera to ji kunn is about 2.5% which is smaller than the overall)

[Glorious Leader]

how is ji kuun a massive 10 man cock block as you put it when its only a 3% decrease from the previous boss while durumu is ~7% from guilds that killed ji kuun.....3% decrease between each boss seams about right as with 12 boss thats 36% less guilds that kill the first one than will kill the last one over a tier. putting it at 64% of guilds killing everything which is much higher than the 50% i see everyone in the thread arguing about. (also if you think its easier on 25m the 10m % decrease from megaera to ji kunn is about 2.5% which is smaller than the overall)

64% of the guilds who have managed to get past horridon and tortos. Again when they have more "data" you'll see more nerfs. We'll see though.

[clevin]

Actually if you want to make any significant progress (say a boss a week) your gonna have to do more than two nights. Or extend raid lockouts. Both things we are looking into. As the raid gets further and further in and you get more bosses behind you and more trash behind you it start's to eat up more and more time that's also assuming you one shot every boss up until progression content. The ideal goal should be one night to farm content you've cleared and one night for progression. It's not gonna work out that easy unless you raid more than 6 hours I think. One of the downsides of such massive raid tiers.

This raid is honestly crushing the casual "middle class" of raiding. The overall difficulty is the primary problem but the trash you have to clear doesn't help either. We might try adding a sat raid but it's not likely going to happen. This tier has turned alot of folks off and they don't want to raid another day if at all possible.

We'll see. The trash worries me a bit because you can't really rush it past a certain point. I'm not that worried about the bosses - we'll get there. But this is feeling a bit like Ulduar where, even if you 1-2 shot the bosses there are so many of them that it does take most of the 2 nights we have to kill the farm bosses.

To give you some context, when we started raiding normals about 3 weeks pre-5.2 we killed through Spirit Kings in MSV in one night, got some tries at elegon, killed him and then Will. It took us most of 6 hours to clear MSV and get Zorlok in HoF. Before we stopped MSV, we were clearing it in 90 minutes. Some of that was gear, much of it was knowing the fights as a group. No one needed to be told what to do, we'd see a phase, all go do what we needed to do and killed the boss. But much of that was a relative lack of trash in MSV. yes, there's some, but it's not that much.

ToT... we'll see. It feels like the trash takes longer, but it might be the wind bridges to Horridon coloring my perspective. At this point, I just want us to get past Horridon and up to Durumu. And you know what? if we need to extend lockouts, we can. I don't like to because we lost farm gear, but...

[Femoris]

original horridon and council were much more difficult than ji kuun so with those guilds getting past those fights now they shouldn't have too much difficulty with ji kuun as there is much less going on in that fight versus the other two

[Glorious Leader]

We'll see. The trash worries me a bit because you can't really rush it past a certain point. I'm not that worried about the bosses - we'll get there. But this is feeling a bit like Ulduar where, even if you 1-2 shot the bosses there are so many of them that it does take most of the 2 nights we have to kill the farm bosses.

To give you some context, when we started raiding normals about 3 weeks pre-5.2 we killed through Spirit Kings in MSV in one night, got some tries at elegon, killed him and then Will. It took us most of 6 hours to clear MSV and get Zorlok in HoF. Before we stopped MSV, we were clearing it in 90 minutes. Some of that was gear, much of it was knowing the fights as a group. No one needed to be told what to do, we'd see a phase, all go do what we needed to do and killed the boss. But much of that was a relative lack of trash in MSV. yes, there's some, but it's not that much.

ToT... we'll see. It feels like the trash takes longer, but it might be the wind bridges to Horridon coloring my perspective. At this point, I just want us to get past Horridon and up to Durumu. And you know what? if we need to extend lockouts, we can. I don't like to because we lost farm gear, but...

Yea we have to make that decision to. It's not a pleasant because our members do need the gear. We might just I don't know farm the first chunk for a bit, get as far and as long as we can until we've decided that those bosses are done and we've got everything we need. At some point you don't need their gear right it may be another couple of weeks before that though depending on how lucky we get with rolls. The stupid roll protection can't come fast enough.

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 05:32 PM ----------

original horridon and council were much more difficult than ji kuun so with those guilds getting past those fights now they shouldn't have too much difficulty with ji kuun as there is much less going on in that fight versus the other two

Council is actually very easy if you stack them up and trivialize the mechanics. You cheat them in other words. Horridon was more or less just a gear check. A horrible one and placed far to early in the instance but mechanically I never thought it was that much of a challenge. Mind you my job on that fight was just to heal the tank and the challenge more or less boiled down to keeping them up through tripple punctures. God it's fucking sad but after meg and tortos I would welcome Horridon. I mean I can sit and hard cast on Horridon. Tortos can't be "cheated" and Meg we'll you can kinda cheat it by not killing the blue head but it's still a cock block. Again we'll see what they do when they get more "data".

[Deleted]

Its time to grow up if you still have this "special snowflake" mentality, really.

I could say its time to turn your brain on and figure out what your raid is doing wrong when you wipe 40+ times on horridon (i don't mean you, I mean the people who do)

But then people will call me an elitist (who raid 5h a week, thats how elitist I am).

I'm not gonna cry over it, i'm just expressing my opinion, I don't like it, but thats how it works and I can't do anything about it. It means we'll clear it faster and have more time on new boss, thats cool.

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 07:19 PM ----------

The first red and green zone, first purple zone, and most of the guilds in the second purple zones guilds couldnt complete T14 after 5 months and with item upgrades.

And we are asumming 100% of the pupulation is those GUILDS GROUPS (at least 8 players from the same guild in 10 man, over 20 in 25 man) that killed at elast 1 boss in normal modes.

BTW, all the guilds in the second red zone and most of the guilds on the second green zone are HEROIC GUILDS.

I hope you get it now how many guilds failed to do so. Now, we may think, over 75% of normal raiders suck and therefore fail to complete a content that SHOULD BE TUNED FOR THEM, or, the content was overtuned for the target audience.

Thank Blizzard for making Empress NM 10 times harder than all the bosses in ToeS combined. And that you have to kill her to be able to go to ToeS. If ToeS didnt had this access i'm sure it would've been a lot smoother than that. ToeS was a complete faceroll when you got there, even the Sha was easier than Garalon. To me, the required access was the problem.

Also, to be able to make assumptions on this data, i'd like to have the same data for previous raids, and where those data come from. I'm not sure the other raids have better numbers.

[NeverStop]

I forgot one. Sue me. I do use it all the time on single targets but towards the later heads I mostly try and use it just before the head dies to help catch up for rampage. It is a 15 second cooldown and I'll fully admit I could be using it more effectively but I'm usually to busy focused on running the obstacle course.

We tried all kinds of strats. In fact we were literally writing out RGRGBRG and RGBRGBG. Something to that effect. We tried all kinds of combinations. in fact we ignored the blue head at first by and large but our tanks were getting whacked even abusing cooldowns and the ground was full of fire. We place the blue beams just fine, usually way out in the back but if I do that then I'm not range of healing anybody and then somebody else has to cover. With the amount of raid dmg going out in the 5th or 6th head phase I need to be HEALING not running around chasing beams or running from fire or dodging green shit that is just gonna hit me for dmg anyway. I usually do ask other healers to cover while I'm trying to avoid shit but I'm not a fan of asking others to carry me because the fight isn't a good comp for a holy paladin. I'd much rather sit to be honest.

Can you post a WoL link? My guild is 6/12 and on the verge of quitting for being stuck on Durumu for over 10 wipes. We're replacing our Resto Druid who keeps dying to the maze and we'd really love to have a Holy Paladin for more BoPs. We'll even pay your transfer / faction change if you're above average.

[Kiry]

I'm not really surprised at the 28 pages of opinons about the normal mode adjustments. I am glad that Blizzard adjusted the bosses, they should be if there is a certain % of people that can't get past them, it's the 1/2 half of the raid dungeon. Heck those people stuck at Tortos still have to get past Meg, Dururmu and others.
I agree Durumu is one of the tougher bosses, mostly due to the amount of things you have to remember.

Our guild cleared normal last week, and we're happy to have done so. And we aren't bothered by these adjustments, our eyes are on the heroics we are working on. We have little concern for those guilds behind us except offering assistance and advice to them - as it should be in a good community.

[Squirl]

Can you post a WoL link? My guild is 6/12 and on the verge of quitting for being stuck on Durumu for over 10 wipes. We're replacing our Resto Druid who keeps dying to the maze and we'd really love to have a Holy Paladin for more BoPs. We'll even pay your transfer / faction change if you're above average.

Quitting after 10 wipes? What. Maybe you forgot a 0.

[Reyzzz]

Can you post a WoL link? My guild is 6/12 and on the verge of quitting for being stuck on Durumu for over 10 wipes. We're replacing our Resto Druid who keeps dying to the maze and we'd really love to have a Holy Paladin for more BoPs. We'll even pay your transfer / faction change if you're above average.

If you are quitting after 10 wipes on a single boss, I'd recommend sticking to LFR.

[Well]

I just honestly don't see the point. Yes, we could barely live the fight with our gear back then, but yesterday I did not even need to use my healing cds to keep the grp alive in the council.

[Glorious Leader]

Can you post a WoL link? My guild is 6/12 and on the verge of quitting for being stuck on Durumu for over 10 wipes. We're replacing our Resto Druid who keeps dying to the maze and we'd really love to have a Holy Paladin for more BoPs. We'll even pay your transfer / faction change if you're above average.

I'm happy where I am thanks. If you want to look for my logs you can search Ashes of the Phoenix on US-Windrunner and you should be good.

[Shmeh]

10 man guild have a higher representation of casual groups than 25 man Makes sense, friends etc.
This is why you are seeing less 10 man guilds getting through.
the average to good 10 man guilds have absolutely no problem killing all 12 bosses on normal.

If you cant, go farm more gear via LFR, ToES and HoF, and valor. You are not prepared.

But noooooo lets QQ and nerf everything. Really good for the game in the long run, when in 2 months everything is nerfed and cleared by everyone, and you are crying 'because there is no content for another 6 months'

If you want content to be difficult, do heroics. If you are doing heroics, then fuck off and let normal players deal with normal nerfs.

[cabyio]

uhh yea I would expect more nerfs. Ji Kuun is also a massive 10 man cock block. Once they get more "data" you'll see more nerfs.

Really? Ji-Kun is the biggest pushover boss in this tier (not counting the first boss). We killed him on our third try. I literally said in vent, "Really? That's it?". I don't expect everyone to kill him that fast but to say he is a cock block is just beyond crazy.

EDIT: FYI, I am doing normal raids (not a heroic raider). We are only 9/12 atm.