Holy mother 10man nerf

[Deja Thoris]

Having proper positioning on blue so that the "one" person affected by it has to kite adds a trivial amount of complexity to the fight. If the whole raid is running about like headless chickens trying to avoid a blue beam then you need to work on your positioning.

Thats not any more complicated than tieing your shoelaces.

The fact that people choose to try to brute force it without gear and then cry for nerfs is pathetic.

I'm not saying its not a hard tier (we're 11/12) but you don't have to go out of your way to make it harder by choosing inappropriate strats for the gear you have.

[Glorious Leader]

So realistically you are making your raid team less intelligent by choosing to ignore mechanics. This is hurting you because when it comes time to learn multiple mechanics you can't slam your face against the fall and win. Don't coddle your raiders. Ask them to learn.

I wish my raid group had your problem. We can learn mechanics extremely well but not all our dps are on the same page.

No were not coddling anybody. Again they're great players, we've got server first yogg sarons in the guild. They can do mechanics but why the fuck should we have to? Look if Blizzard didn't want us to make the fight as simple as possible then they shouldn't have let it be an option. We don't need to ask them to learn, they do it naturally. We would just rather keep the fights as simple as possible.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 10:07 PM ----------

Having proper positioning on blue so that the "one" person affected by it has to kite adds a trivial amount of complexity to the fight. If the whole raid is running about like headless chickens trying to avoid a blue beam then you need to work on your positioning.

Thats not any more complicated than tieing your shoelaces.

The fact that people choose to try to brute force it without gear and then cry for nerfs is pathetic.

I'm not saying its not a hard tier (we're 11/12) but you don't have to go out of your way to make it harder by choosing inappropriate strats for the gear you have.

We're not going out of our way to make it harder. Ignoring the blue head makes it simpler. It's not our fault Blizzard can't tune bosses properly.

[cabyio]

Not if we are talking about a hard cap on the short term memory, no.

If it was a list of numbers or something yes, but due to the interaction with other members it'll be a fuzzy function and therefore not learnable by rote.

If you do something enough times it becomes second nature. Some people are faster and some are slower.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 04:11 PM ----------

We're not going out of our way to make it harder. Ignoring the blue head makes it simpler. It's not our fault Blizzard can't tune bosses properly.

It just makes the fight way more stable in terms of healing, it just might take a bit longer to complete.

[Deleted]

If you do something enough times it becomes second nature.[COLOR="red"]

And if you can't do it ever it never can be learned.

Again, if its a hard cap on short term memory lack of ability to adapt will never be overcome.

[Tharkkun]

No were not coddling anybody. Again they're great players, we've got server first yogg sarons in the guild. They can do mechanics but why the fuck should we have to? Look if Blizzard didn't want us to make the fight as simple as possible then they shouldn't have let it be an option. We don't need to ask them to learn, they do it naturally. We would just rather keep the fights as simple as possible.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 10:07 PM ----------



We're not going out of our way to make it harder. Ignoring the blue head makes it simpler. It's not our fault Blizzard can't tune bosses properly.

But you're not making it simple as others have been telling you. You're ignoring mechanics and then getting frustrated when a brute force zerg isn't working. Also wotlk was 4 years ago. No one stays at the top of their game forever so I'd quit tossing that accomplishment around as it means nothing if you're having problems with normal mode.

It's like the Philly Eagles making a dream team of great players and then bitching up a storm when they miss the playoffs because they can't play as a team.

[Hayro1]

All the wealth of experience this raid guild has and were all virtually in agreement that so far every fight this tier has felt like downing a heroic boss. This is all on NORMAL DIFFICULTY.

Either you or they are lying, because the nerfed versions feel NOTHING like Heroics in any way, shape, or form. Especially after the major nerfs that hit the early on bosses. And if you're talking about normal Yogg RF, who cares? lol. Could have easily been a backwater server.

[cabyio]

And if you can't do it ever it never can be learned.

Again, if its a hard cap on short term memory lack of ability to adapt will never be overcome.

But eventually things should be shunted to long term memory. If I die enough times to something I will stop and really figure out why the hell im dying to it. Then next time you focus on that thing till you got it down to muscle memory almost. Then you move on to the next thing your having issues with. Load them into long term memory 1 at a time if you need to.

[Deleted]

But eventually things should be shunted to long term memory. If I die enough times to something I will stop and really figure out why the hell im dying to it. Then next time you focus on that thing till you got it down to muscle memory almost. Then you move on to the next thing your having issues with. Load them into long term memory 1 at a time if you need to.

Only small chains will be shunted, then the next small chain will need to be loaded as and when it needs to.

Again, because it's a fluid situation, it can't be chain learned in the same way as something like a piano concerto can.

Say HC bob can remember move for rockall, DPS rotation 1, 2, 3, move, check for CDs becoming available, watch DBM timer - but Normal bill can only remember move for rockall, DPS rotation - anything else bil has to do will displace something already in memory.

If you think about it, given the mechanics of wow, this must be the biggest differential between players.

[cabyio]

Only small chains will be shunted, then the next small chain will need to be loaded as and when it needs to.

Again, because it's a fluid situation, it can't be chain learned in the same way as something like a piano concerto can.

Say HC bob can remember move for rockall, DPS rotation 1, 2, 3, move, check for CDs becoming available, watch DBM timer - but Normal bill can only remember move for rockall, DPS rotation - anything else bil has to do will displace something already in memory.

If you think about it, given the mechanics of wow, this must be the biggest differential between players.

Ah, your talking about working memory. I do agree there is disparity between people on this. But how low do you tune things, 1 thing at a time, 2 things at a time? Also if you know your character really well your rotation should be second nature. When I'm healing, or DPSing, its almost like my fingers just know what to do. It should not require much of your working memory, it should be ingrained in you, leaving your more active memory for things like boss mechanics, etc.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 04:38 PM ----------

You should be able to just instinctively run your rotation if you know your character well at all.

[Glorious Leader]

[/COLOR]You should be able to just instinctively run your rotation if you know your character well at all.

And if your not on a rotation but on a priority system? or if your healing and have to also make the snap decision about which character to heal and with what spell? It's not as simple as just muscle memory rotation it's also the complexity of the decision making process coupled with the constant attempts to drag your focus away from that with overwhelming mechanics. Your working memory is stretched to the limit. It wasn't in the past.

[cabyio]

And if your not on a rotation but on a priority system? or if your healing and have to also make the snap decision about which character to heal and with what spell? It's not as simple as just muscle memory rotation it's also the complexity of the decision making process coupled with the constant attempts to drag your focus away from that with overwhelming mechanics. Your working memory is stretched to the limit. It wasn't in the past.

Hey, your talking to a healer here. I agree, healing is not so much a set rotation as it is active decision making. But still, I heal without even really thinking about it. I didn't at first, but now my mouse clicks on my raid frames almost before I consciously register that a person needs a heal. I think this is possible with any class, its about experience and repetition.

[Glorious Leader]

Hey, your talking to a healer here. I agree, healing is not so much a set rotation as it is active decision making. But still, I heal without even really thinking about it. I didn't at first, but now my mouse clicks on my raid frames almost before I consciously register that a person needs a heal. I think this is possible with any class, its about experience and repetition.

No you are thinking about it. Your not just healing random targets I assume? You actually make an active decision about whom to heal and what spell to heal with? Your not just spamming whatever random players with whatever random spells? Well in that split second your focus is being drawn into doing that job and it's NOT on whatever raid mechanic you have to deal with. Now for some players it's pretty easy to divide that up but for others it's not and the more you tac on top of that it makes it much worse. The more that it splits up their cognitive awareness the more likely they are to feel overwhelmed (which they are), the more likely they are to fail and the more likely they are going to be frustrated and claim the content is to hard. Which it is.

WoW at this difficulty feels more like an rts.

[Celarent]

According to Ghostcrawler's latest tweets, it's "min-max behavior" to run LFR for Shado-Pan reputation from bosses not killed on normal for any upgrade to help your raid progress.

A few other tweets like that. I don't know if he's had a long week, but he's wading into "dungeons are hard" territory.

[Glorious Leader]

According to Ghostcrawler's latest tweets, it's "min-max behavior" to run LFR for Shado-Pan reputation from bosses not killed on normal for any upgrade to help your raid progress.

A few other tweets like that. I don't know if he's had a long week, but he's wading into "dungeons are hard" territory.

In his defense he also recognized why their would be some value in beer league raiding. I just hope to god they don't over think it. It really just is a matter of tuning normals. That's it. They don't need another tier of raiding. Just make normals normal again.

[Crashdummy]

We didnt magically pull it from our ass! We wipped all night using the wrong strat. We sat back waited a week and during that week peopel thoguth of what was killing us. Then we talked about what we thoguth was killign us and came to a conclusion to try tossing in a blue head kill to help out our healers at the end.

is that not what raiding normals is about... figuring out strats, commign up against a boss and as a team figuring out how to kill it? If you want shit to just roll over without figuring out strats and what works for your team then LFR is one que away!

OK, seems you dont get it. What you consider challenging, Paragon consider it a roll over.

What you consider a roll over, 60% of the raiders consider it challenging,

I hope you get it now, its not that difficult to understand.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:49 PM ----------

I disagree. I think a larger portion of "ability" is due to effort than natural skill. Not saying there isn't a natural element involved, just that effort goes a long way. The problem with most people is they are just not willing to put forth that effort.

You need practice, yes, but everyone has a skill ceiling. You probably would never play at Paragon level, even if you play 20 hours a day.

Well, average players will probably never play at the top 25% level, no matter how they practice.

Because you see, one person can practice and get better, but it will ALWAYS play worse than a person naturally better gifted that ALSO practice.

Normals are hard, people fail, and not because they dont practice, or because they dont read strats, or because thay have the gear badly gemmed/enchanted, its because the level of play required exceeds their possibilities.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:52 PM ----------

The real crux of it is, what is the appropriate % of players able to complete normals in time for the next raid (which isn't what Glorious even wants). Glorious said himself that he wants to be done by 5.3 and possibly try some heroics.

Around 60-75% would be appropiate

And heroics SHOULD be significantly harder than normals, because trying heroics shouldnt be something you do as soon as you clear normal, like now, it should be a decision to go into a higher level of challenge.

Right now it isnt. Cleared normal? Ok, lets do the easier heroics that are easier than what we have already done.

[Celarent]

In his defense he also recognized why their would be some value in beer league raiding. I just hope to god they don't over think it. It really just is a matter of tuning normals. That's it. They don't need another tier of raiding. Just make normals normal again.

Definitely a good thing if entry-level raiding is handed back to server communities, especially 10-man. It just suggests great detachment from how the game is playing, much more than even I figured, so I wonder how they're getting their information.

[Deleted]

but everyone has a skill ceiling. You probably would never play at Paragon level, even if you play 20 hours a day.

Well, average players will probably never play at the top 25% level, no matter how they practice.

Being "gifted" at WoW is a combination of things, and more akin to having decent spacial awareness and the ability to multitask. The majority of people who have been brought up playing computer games will have some sort of aptitude for WoW.

People who play at a "Paragon Level" are great wow players, exceptional in fact but it's not because of some sort of natural gift - frankly I find that comment slightly laughable. People hit a "skill ceiling" in WoW due to many different things like what sort of guild you're in/environment that you're being exposed to, do you fundamentally understand what your abilities do and how stats, range, priorities work etc.

Simply put; the largest factor in even a casual player being exceptional at playing their class is research and practise. Paragon are great at what they do primarily because they do the research, they min-max gear and reforges, they know their characters and abilities inside out and, above all they have the time and the enthusiasm to dedicate an inordinate amount of effort to WoW.

I firmly believe that, given enough time and with enough effort even "average" players (which is what, anybody doing normal modes?) could raid in a heroic team and push ranks on WoL. Getting to world-first level requires an amount of dedication that most people just don't have - it's not about natural ability.

[Deja Thoris]

Being "gifted" at WoW is a combination of things, and more akin to having decent spacial awareness and the ability to multitask. The majority of people who have been brought up playing computer games will have some sort of aptitude for WoW.

People who play at a "Paragon Level" are great wow players, exceptional in fact but it's not because of some sort of natural gift - frankly I find that comment slightly laughable. People hit a "skill ceiling" in WoW due to many different things like what sort of guild you're in/environment that you're being exposed to, do you fundamentally understand what your abilities do and how stats, range, priorities work etc.

Simply put; the largest factor in even a casual player being exceptional at playing their class is research and practise. Paragon are great at what they do primarily because they do the research, they min-max gear and reforges, they know their characters and abilities inside out and, above all they have the time and the enthusiasm to dedicate an inordinate amount of effort to WoW.

I firmly believe that, given enough time and with enough effort even "average" players (which is what, anybody doing normal modes?) could raid in a heroic team and push ranks on WoL. Getting to world-first level requires an amount of dedication that most people just don't have - it's not about natural ability.

Wrong.

It's like saying if I spent a long time training I could win a marathon. It's not going to happen.

Exceptional players have good awareness, multitasking and other inherent skills that makes them what they are. Kind of like Usain Bolt having certain natural attributes to make him good at what he does. Just because exceptional wow players attributes aren't physical ones, doesn't mean they don't have them.

[cabyio]

Around 60-75% would be appropiate

And heroics SHOULD be significantly harder than normals, because trying heroics shouldnt be something you do as soon as you clear normal, like now, it should be a decision to go into a higher level of challenge.

Right now it isnt. Cleared normal? Ok, lets do the easier heroics that are easier than what we have already done.

Do you realize how easy normals would have to be for 60-75% of people to clear them? They wouldn't be much better than LFR.

[Keoren]

ON NORMAL MODES if you move out of something you shouldn't take ANY FUCKING DMG from that thing.

Why, as long as the damage in relation to rest of the encounter is appropriate? It doesn't differ from a situation where you take unavoidable raid damage from a mechanic and can also move from another to not take damage from that, such as the combination of unavoidable damage and the anima fonts on Dark Animus. The only difference is that the two things are part of the same mechanic. There is nothing wrong with that.

It's like saying if I spent a long time training I could win a marathon. It's not going to happen.

Perhaps not, but you could most likely finish one and on a good placing at that.