Paladins in T15

[Shmeh]

Let me start out with a little something about my raid groups situation. We're a relatively successful 10 man 12 hour a week guild, currently 6/13h, aiming for 8 by the end of this coming raid week. Our dps excellent, with everyone consistently parsing in the top 10 for their class. We have an exceptional disc priest and resto druid that rank as well. Now we run in to our issue. Our third healer is a resto shaman, and our tanks are death knight and monk. No paladin.

Damn near every heroic this tier is one tankable if your raid has a hand of protection available. On top of being able to have an additional dps for most fights, the additional vengeance from single tanking makes that tanks damage and self healing beyond absurd. Not only that, but prot paladins are arguably the strongest tank, and holy paladins are the healing king right now.

While we're still killing bosses effectively, I can't help but feel a little bit crippled by not having a paladin. Hand of protection this tier is the most broken thing in PvE in recent memory.

I guess what I'm getting at is, does anyone else feel the same right now?

[Dorfie]

Nearly every heroic is one tankable? Durumu and Iron Qon yeah, maybe Tortos if you really want to. Any thing else and you're just going to be causing more trouble than it's worth.

[Shmeh]

Nearly every heroic is one tankable? Durumu and Iron Qon yeah, maybe Tortos if you really want to. Any thing else and you're just going to be causing more trouble than it's worth.

Council and Megaera can and have been single tanked. The dps requirement for Council is made significantly lower by one tanking. "Nearly every" was an over exaggeration, but still. Having one of the class can entirely mitigate mechanics.

[Deleted]

what server you on? I'm more then happy to transfer my holydin =3

[Shmeh]

what server you on? I'm more then happy to transfer my holydin =3

<DSLB> on US-Arthas. We should talk some time soon.

[Nuckels]

Council and Megaera can and have been single tanked. The dps requirement for Council is made significantly lower by one tanking. "Nearly every" was an over exaggeration, but still. Having one of the class can entirely mitigate mechanics.

You can solo tank meg heroic? How's that work exactly <_<

[Loxxie]

You do not want to solo tank Megaera Heroic, and thats coming from someone who has tanked that fight.

While solotanking on Normal is doable, on Heroic you will have to rangetank heads if you want to solo tank, and that ranged attack is a fast spammable 350k? attack. while that might in some extreme cases be survivable, its not worth it in any way shape or form.

[Shmeh]

You do not want to solo tank Megaera Heroic, and thats coming from someone who has tanked that fight.

While solotanking on Normal is doable, on Heroic you will have to rangetank heads if you want to solo tank, and that ranged attack is a fast spammable 350k? attack. while that might in some extreme cases be survivable, its not worth it in any way shape or form.

You can solo tank meg heroic? How's that work exactly <_<

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...p?f=48&t=33400

[Nuckels]

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...p?f=48&t=33400

Hm fair enough, cant imagine that being worth it tho considering you would have to holdback dps.

[Shmeh]

Hm fair enough, cant imagine that being worth it tho considering you would have to holdback dps.

It would have been more effective several weeks ago, before legendary metas and all the gear people have acquired. I'd imagine now you'd have to hold dps quite a lot for the rot armor debuff But still, one tanking for an early kill would have been nice. I can't see a non-paladin tank being capable of doing it.

[Deleted]

Speaking as a Paladin that has a 2nd Paladin also in the raid I can't really feel your pain. >.>

But yes, BoP is kind of OP for a lot of these mechanics. Still though, it happens. I can tell you how crippled I felt when we did some fights last tier without a Disc priest and how stupid OP Spirit Shell seemed from the outside looking in. There's lots of other examples in past tiers, like Combat Rogues or if you remember DK tanks on Yor'sahj. Grass is always greener on the other side when you lack that key class for a specific fight.

I think one tanking is a bit overrated this expansion too. Its still useful but nothing like what it used to be if you have a Monk tank. They do ridiculous DPS even while 2 tanking.

[Shmeh]

Speaking as a Paladin that has a 2nd Paladin also in the raid I can't really feel your pain. >.>

But yes, BoP is kind of OP for a lot of these mechanics. Still though, it happens. I can tell you how crippled I felt when we did some fights last tier without a Disc priest and how stupid OP Spirit Shell seemed from the outside looking in. There's lots of other examples in past tiers, like Combat Rogues or if you remember DK tanks on Yor'sahj. Grass is always greener on the other side when you lack that key class for a specific fight.

I think one tanking is a bit overrated this expansion too. Its still useful but nothing like what it used to be if you have a Monk tank. They do ridiculous DPS even while 2 tanking.

Yeah, your examples are right. My issue is just that in the case of ToT, the key class is paladins of any spec for most fights rather than a specific fight here and there.

[Deleted]

tankadins are OP; other paladins are worthwhile bringing for utility but nothing too ott.

[Aircroth]

Yeah, my raid group felt severely gimped on H Horridon progression with a Death Knight and Warrior tank, during the last phase we just had to pray to the RNG gods (and thank god for purgatory.) I think Paladin tanks are just too good in 10man, but I don't think they should be nerfed, other tanks need to be brought up in line with them though.

[mistahwilshire]

BoP is basically the reason Rets are ever brought to raids with their terrible DPS the past 2 tiers.

As a Hunter in these current times of all 3 Hunter specs sucking ass relative to most DPS specs I have to say I'm very jealous of having an amazing utility to bring to a raid while still sucking as a DPS spec.

[Takeada]

Hand of Protection and their talent Clemency are just too powerful and I really don't know why they allow it to clear debuffs/avoid mechanics in raids. It's not just a prot paladin's utility abilities that make them so powerful, but also their healing can get ridiculous as well. As well, why they gave prot paladins devo aura along with all that is beyond me.

I think one tanking is a bit overrated this expansion too. Its still useful but nothing like what it used to be if you have a Monk tank. They do ridiculous DPS even while 2 tanking.

Monks only manage this because they don't stack avoidance stats like other tanks do to mitigate damage. Their AOE damage can get pretty ridiculous though. But I'm not sure why you think single tanking isn't a big deal when it matters mostly in 10 man, and in that case is only really an option if you have a prot paladin to do it. That's a significant design flaw considering how easy it can make some fights.

[Deleted]

Monks only manage this because they don't stack avoidance stats like other tanks do to mitigate damage. Their AOE damage can get pretty ridiculous though. But I'm not sure why you think single tanking isn't a big deal when it matters mostly in 10 man, and in that case is only really an option if you have a prot paladin to do it. That's a significant design flaw considering how easy it can make some fights.

I guess I just haven't seen it be that big of a DPS increase yet. For most of WoW switching a tank our for a DPS would have been double or more DPS, that's not really the case anymore. Its still a DPS increase but I don't see it as a game breaker.

So no, I don't think one tanking is really such a huge issue or that guilds who can't do it are suffering hugely. But yes Prot and Holy are very good and one might feel gimped without them, but its due to a multitude of reasons. Both specs perform very well within their own boundaries (like HPS, or mitigation) while ALSO providing big class-wide utility like double BoPs.

[Shmeh]

I guess I just haven't seen it be that big of a DPS increase yet. For most of WoW switching a tank our for a DPS would have been double or more DPS, that's not really the case anymore. Its still a DPS increase but I don't see it as a game breaker.

So no, I don't think one tanking is really such a huge issue or that guilds who can't do it are suffering hugely. But yes Prot and Holy are very good and one might feel gimped without them, but its due to a multitude of reasons. Both specs perform very well within their own boundaries (like HPS, or mitigation) while ALSO providing big class-wide utility like double BoPs.

It's still quite large. The single tank will be getting much more out of his vengeance, and the additional dps will do much more than a secondary tank would have.

[Cairhiin]

So basically just because you don't have a Paladin in your raid you want Paladins nerfed? Seems a little unreasonable seeing as BoP has been around since vanilla, and it never has been a problem. Other classes have brought huge advantages to the raid in the past, this isn't the first time something like this happens (Resto Shamans in Sunwell, Disc priests in T14, etc). The issue is not Paladins, the problem is 10 man raids and lack of certain classes.

[Kroni]

Im prot Pala and Warrior, switched to my paladin currently in 10m.

Its pretty rediculous how this changes many things in our raid, even tho my paladin was only at 502 when my warrior was at 518, now my pala is 514.

I will 1tank HC Tortos, HC Quon and HC Durumu, which makes them essentially different fights, especially Quon and Durumu. Quon HC Tank damage on my 505 Paladin at the time was a complete joke and you just get a full DPS for free too. Its not the biggest deal in the world, you can still kill them the normal way but for us its really good because my co-tank was DPS and is a very good one (DK) so its very convinient for us to do this. If you co-tank is half-good at his DPS spec you will not get the same result, but if he is with your top ranks its golden.

Our DK likes to DPS and i like to solo tank so its win-win, NHC i also solotank Tortos, Durumu, Quon, Twins and Lei Shen(soon) which makes clears even faster.

And its not just the DPS increase for your raid(70k~100k+ DPS increase), its the healing aswell with all that vengeance. So yes, i can see why you feel that way.