Hunter Stat Weights.

[Effinhunter]

Ignoring the fact that many guilds private log, the answer is that the highest overall DPS spec isn't necessarily the best for the fight. It's all about maximizing raid DPS. Durumu had a massive DPS check when we first got to him, and, as we all know, ele shamans and demo warlocks are completely broken for killing the ice walls. Now I'm pretty sure going survival would increase my overall DPS for the fight, but that means attacking the ice walls more and reducing the amount of time warlocks and shamans got to sit on them. The raid's DPS would decrease by me going survival. The same thing goes for Lei Shen, except for Lei Shen I at least picked up barrage.

The private logging is undoubtedly part of the issue right now. I've had the pleasure to run with a couple 535 hunters in LFR recently, and not a single one of them were in guilds that did public logging, and each of them smoked the meters (>200k on every fight). When it comes to the 515-525 ilvl ranges, the majority of mid-tier hunters appear to be going SV all the way through the instance.

Another issue right now on many of the ToT bosses is pet pathing. Even on Jin'Rokh, the pet can sometimes glitch in its movements around the big boss. Blink Strike in 5.3 should change that. Honestly, I think the mechanics of Blink Strike should be baked into hunter pets as a baseline, considering that we should not be penalized for poor pathing AI implemented by Blizzard. And in all honesty, it's a really difficult problem to fix, and Blizzard is not going to dedicate the programming resources to fix poor pathing AI in all pet classes over other issues that could use their attention, especially since the pet AI is only really affecting a single spec on one pure dps class--BM. Warlocks and DKs can do great dps and are not as dependent on their pets, even if they are considered a pet class.

[Kennyloggins]

Hi Kenny,

You been playing haste > crit for little while now, would you even go back to crit > haste? At the moment I got 2 rppm trinkets, 2pc, plus meta, FD still puts me down if I go haste > crit. I notice on AOE fights if I get good uptime on my trinkets I do just as well or better if I had Crit > haste , on single targets its def better. I already gone with forging haste > crit just want know your thoughts before I start switching agi & crit gems for agi & haste. Thanks for feedback

I usually don't use FD ever unless it's to get a general idea of how a new change is going to work, and that's because Zeherah is way faster at updating than the simc guys. The logic behind using Simulationcraft exclusively is frankly that simulation is better than formulation (meaning that FD tries to express everything with a spreadsheet, ie formulas, and simulationcraft basically runs thousands of unique simulations to get an average). Simc's model seems pretty solid for BM and RPPM, so I trust its results. Going from Crit > Haste to Haste > Crit nets me 1500 DPS as BM using simc. Stat weights are also here: http://goo.gl/z5lBF

Overall there is definitely a noticeable difference in trinket uptimes, but it's hard to say whether or not I have noticed a DPS increase from the reforging. This is due to working within the margin of error, constant gear upgrades, and simple RNG.

---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 08:10 AM ----------

The private logging is undoubtedly part of the issue right now. I've had the pleasure to run with a couple 535 hunters in LFR recently, and not a single one of them were in guilds that did public logging, and each of them smoked the meters (>200k on every fight). When it comes to the 515-525 ilvl ranges, the majority of mid-tier hunters appear to be going SV all the way through the instance.

Another issue right now on many of the ToT bosses is pet pathing. Even on Jin'Rokh, the pet can sometimes glitch in its movements around the big boss. Blink Strike in 5.3 should change that. Honestly, I think the mechanics of Blink Strike should be baked into hunter pets as a baseline, considering that we should not be penalized for poor pathing AI implemented by Blizzard. And in all honesty, it's a really difficult problem to fix, and Blizzard is not going to dedicate the programming resources to fix poor pathing AI in all pet classes over other issues that could use their attention, especially since the pet AI is only really affecting a single spec on one pure dps class--BM. Warlocks and DKs can do great dps and are not as dependent on their pets, even if they are considered a pet class.

I honestly do not understand the complaint about pet pathing. I feel like this is mostly people just not knowing how pets behave, or simply not liking it. Either way, this tier I have had no problems with my pet behaving erratically in any way, even on Megaera, and the only boss that really had a problem last tier was Garalon. There's a difference between a fight like Garalon that is completely broken and a fight like Durumu where you have to simply optimize your pets movement.

[Saoron]

So the pet randomly despawning on durumu is intended ?

And yea I agree with kenny.. I believe sampling bias is to blame for the skewed numbers on WoL atm.. I mean even last tier, when the gap was fairly significant between BM and SV, people still played SV cuz they 'liked' it better.. and now that the gap is shortened (but still significant as far as progression goes) quite obviously everyone will flock to SV, as evident with the logs.. Once again though, that doesn't change the fact that BM is superior..

But Draco, are you simply just claming mastery > haste for aoe/multi target SV ? Or are you saying that the stat prio's are the same as they were last tier for both BM and SV as mastery > haste for both aoe and ST and RPPM had no effect on it ?

[Deleted]

So the pet randomly despawning on durumu is intended ?

You need to summon youre pets outside durumu's room otherwise it can despawn.

[Dracodraco]

So the pet randomly despawning on durumu is intended ?

And yea I agree with kenny.. I believe sampling bias is to blame for the skewed numbers on WoL atm.. I mean even last tier, when the gap was fairly significant between BM and SV, people still played SV cuz they 'liked' it better.. and now that the gap is shortened (but still significant as far as progression goes) quite obviously everyone will flock to SV, as evident with the logs.. Once again though, that doesn't change the fact that BM is superior..

But Draco, are you simply just claming mastery > haste for aoe/multi target SV ? Or are you saying that the stat prio's are the same as they were last tier for both BM and SV as mastery > haste for both aoe and ST and RPPM had no effect on it ?

I'm saying Mastery>Haste in AOE and multidot-scenarios (Council, Tortos, Magaera, Horridon, argueably Lei Shen). Haste is stronger than mastery on single target.
As for BM - even simmed, the difference between the specs are less than 3%, well within the "margin of error". The fact that Surv is far better at the above encounters due to aoe/multidotting, and has chance to do things such as multishot in last phase of Qon (adding a little extra to the base damage) is why most people go Surv over BM. The difference simply isn't big enough to warrant a switch, because of survs ability to abuse dots.

[Humiliate]

For Horridon HC I should go for Crit > Mastery > Haste ? (4p + 2 trinket rppm ) Or it's still better to go with Crit > Haste > Mastery for the next final phase ?

[Deleted]

I trust alot what people simming but having the 2 set bonus and 2 of the new trinkets...it still feels like trinkets procc more often with crit > mastery > haste and also a higher overall damage..... mb its just my playstyle but for me mastery feels superior compared to haste.... this also goes for survival specc which i play only at 2 bosses in throne of thunder

[Deleted]

I remember seeing a haste breakpoint for the attacks of Dire Beast but I can't find it anymore. Anybody who can help?

[Kennyloggins]

I was speaking about stat weights when referring to the margin of error. With T14 gear, stat weights were usually so close for BM that they were within the margin of error. That is what I am speaking about.

As for pet despawning on Durumu, my experience was that it only happened for SV since Kill Command's charge did something to prevent it from despawning. In this case, pet issues do not hinder BM, they in fact promote its use in a way. In any case, I'm sure there's a workaround like karigan suggested.

[Stridur]

I usually don't use FD ever unless it's to get a general idea of how a new change is going to work, and that's because Zeherah is way faster at updating than the simc guys. The logic behind using Simulationcraft exclusively is frankly that simulation is better than formulation. Simc's model seems pretty solid for BM and RPPM, so I trust its results. Going from Crit > Haste to Haste > Crit nets me 1500 DPS as BM using simc. Stat weights are also here: http://goo.gl/z5lBF

Overall there is definitely a noticeable difference in trinket uptimes, but it's hard to say whether or not I have noticed a DPS increase from the reforging. This is due to working within the margin of error, constant gear upgrades, and simple RNG.[COLOR="red"]

Thanks for the feedback bud, I never really used the sim but only FD. Give it a shot this weekend

[Effinhunter]

I honestly do not understand the complaint about pet pathing. I feel like this is mostly people just not knowing how pets behave, or simply not liking it. Either way, this tier I have had no problems with my pet behaving erratically in any way, even on Megaera, and the only boss that really had a problem last tier was Garalon. There's a difference between a fight like Garalon that is completely broken and a fight like Durumu where you have to simply optimize your pets movement.

From what I've experienced (and I don't let this stop me from playing BM), it's not just that the pet is moving oddly or that the pet isn't hitting the boss. It's that when tanks are turning the boss (e.g., on a swap or just as required from mechanics), the pet attempts to move to the back of the boss and is essentially hitting the boss from the front at times, which can cause expertise issues (essentially, it switches from 7.5% expertise needed to 15% expertise needed if you don't want the pet to miss from the front). When I look at my parses for my pet on Jin'rokh, for instance, I see 1% misses.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7...?s=1503&e=1869

On Megaera, it gets even worse (1.9% misses due the way the pet paths around the heads during the transitions).

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7...?s=7111&e=7519

If this is not what's going on, let me know. I have 15% total ranged expertise/hit, so this should result in no misses if the pet is behind the target. But from what I've been able to gather and from watching what the pet is doing during fights, this appears to be caused by the pet moving from the front to the back during tank transitions. The blinkstrike changes "should" change this. We may still get a melee hit or two to miss from the front, but as soon as the basic attack triggers, the pet should instantly teleport behind the boss to where our 15% total ranged expertise/hit should be appropriate to not miss.

[Saoron]

@Draco.. I do agree that Mastery > Haste on sustained aoe fights like horridon.. No debate on that part.. But I still disagree with your other argument though.. I mean you're biasing your argument.. You're saying to achieve the simmed dps of BM, you need perfect play.. and then you compare it to the MAX potential simmed dps of SV ?? Why the double standards ? You also need perfect play to achieve SV's simmed numbers.. Saying one spec takes less effort than the other is subjective and varies from player to player.. So you can't use that as a variable.. If a players skill level is equal with both specs.. He will always perform better with BM on ST..

And again, after the 5.3 buff to beast cleave.. the aoe gap will be shortened.. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it goes.. But i don't know what's the basis of this pointless mindset that 'majority' of the fights are aoe/multi target so I will always be SV.. like we have different stat priorities or something ? And one would have to reforge back and forth and the 'hassle' wouldn't be worth it.. All the hassle you have is a couple second cast time of your respec button.. Even if 12 fights this tier were aoe/multi target based.. and only 1 was single target.. I would STILL go BM for that ONE fight.. and continue to play SV for the others.. Insisting on playing SV for that ST fight as well is just lack of a min/maxing mindset.. Which I guess is a personal preference.. I mean outside of top 5 world ranks, it wouldn't matter much technically.. But I still like to help out the raid as much as I can..

@Kenny and karigan.. Nope karigan, that doesn't make a difference for me.. I usually do summon pet outside the room while going for the trash.. Unless you're saying that I need to dismiss after trash is done.. then run out.. summon again.. then come back ?
And kenny, I wouldn't have much of a problem if it happened as SV.. although I have only been sv on that fight once.. But it pisses me off cuz it happens with BM.. And it's always during the opener.. Pop cd's.. hit first KC (pet should be on bosses ass).. GT DB etc.. and then a few seconds later poof.. pet gone.. precious burst gone to waste.. It was happening so often that I had to bind my pet and have to resummon during the opener.. still lose gcds and proc time..

[Dracodraco]

@Draco.. I do agree that Mastery > Haste on sustained aoe fights like horridon.. No debate on that part.. But I still disagree with your other argument though.. I mean you're biasing your argument.. You're saying to achieve the simmed dps of BM, you need perfect play.. and then you compare it to the MAX potential simmed dps of SV ?? Why the double standards ? You also need perfect play to achieve SV's simmed numbers.. Saying one spec takes less effort than the other is subjective and varies from player to player.. So you can't use that as a variable.. If a players skill level is equal with both specs.. He will always perform better with BM on ST..

Incorrect. I said that in order to achieve max BM potential, you have to use BW on cooldown and plan your focus accordingly. If BW comes off-CD during downtime (such as Windstorm on Qon, transistion on Lei shen, Inferno on twins etc), it's a far bigger loss than simply not being able to attack, like Surv. Surv is far more sustained than BM is, and thus Surv has an edge on any fight where you can't have 100% uptime.

And again, after the 5.3 buff to beast cleave.. the aoe gap will be shortened.. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it goes.. But i don't know what's the basis of this pointless mindset that 'majority' of the fights are aoe/multi target so I will always be SV.. like we have different stat priorities or something ? And one would have to reforge back and forth and the 'hassle' wouldn't be worth it.. All the hassle you have is a couple second cast time of your respec button.. Even if 12 fights this tier were aoe/multi target based.. and only 1 was single target.. I would STILL go BM for that ONE fight.. and continue to play SV for the others.. Insisting on playing SV for that ST fight as well is just lack of a min/maxing mindset.. Which I guess is a personal preference.. I mean outside of top 5 world ranks, it wouldn't matter much technically.. But I still like to help out the raid as much as I can..

But achieving the max for Surv is easier than BM, exactly because of the reason I stated before. Delay is far less dangerous for Surv. And I'm not exactly a "bad" player, I can play both specs quite well.
Also, I highly doubt beast cleave will make BM anywhere near as good as surv, AOE-wise. Sorry, but it just seems unlikely, outside of BW, atleast.

[Deleted]

Draco.. I do agree that Mastery > Haste on sustained aoe fights like horridon.. No debate on that part.. But I still disagree with your other argument though.. I mean you're biasing your argument.. You're saying to achieve the simmed dps of BM, you need perfect play.. and then you compare it to the MAX potential simmed dps of SV ?? Why the double standards ? You also need perfect play to achieve SV's simmed numbers.. Saying one spec takes less effort than the other is subjective and varies from player to player.. So you can't use that as a variable.. If a players skill level is equal with both specs.. He will always perform better with BM on ST..

And again, after the 5.3 buff to beast cleave.. the aoe gap will be shortened.. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it goes.. But i don't know what's the basis of this pointless mindset that 'majority' of the fights are aoe/multi target so I will always be SV.. like we have different stat priorities or something ? And one would have to reforge back and forth and the 'hassle' wouldn't be worth it.. All the hassle you have is a couple second cast time of your respec button.. Even if 12 fights this tier were aoe/multi target based.. and only 1 was single target.. I would STILL go BM for that ONE fight.. and continue to play SV for the others.. Insisting on playing SV for that ST fight as well is just lack of a min/maxing mindset.. Which I guess is a personal preference.. I mean outside of top 5 world ranks, it wouldn't matter much technically.. But I still like to help out the raid as much as I can..

Kenny and karigan.. Nope karigan, that doesn't make a difference for me.. I usually do summon pet outside the room while going for the trash.. Unless you're saying that I need to dismiss after trash is done.. then run out.. summon again.. then come back ?
And kenny, I wouldn't have much of a problem if it happened as SV.. although I have only been sv on that fight once.. But it pisses me off cuz it happens with BM.. And it's always during the opener.. Pop cd's.. hit first KC (pet should be on bosses ass).. GT DB etc.. and then a few seconds later poof.. pet gone.. precious burst gone to waste.. It was happening so often that I had to bind my pet and have to resummon during the opener.. still lose gcds and proc time..

Well sounds bit weird that it does not work for you. We had pet despawn problem while progressing durumu and after a bit of investigation we found that we need to summon our pets outside durumus room and pets never despawned again, And it has nothing to do with hunter class/spec especially, It was also every other pet class problem (dk, warlock). Maybe it is different kinda bug on US servers dunno, but summoning pets outside durumu's rooms works for our guild perfectly.

[Neazy]

Incorrect. I said that in order to achieve max BM potential, you have to use BW on cooldown and plan your focus accordingly. If BW comes off-CD during downtime (such as Windstorm on Qon, transistion on Lei shen, Inferno on twins etc), it's a far bigger loss than simply not being able to attack, like Surv. Surv is far more sustained than BM is, and thus Surv has an edge on any fight where you can't have 100% uptime.

This isn't true. It doesn't matter what spec you're playing during transitions: you can't attack either way. If anything, this scenario helps put BM ahead of surv because most of the time transitions happen when your abilities are on cooldown. So you can't attack, but your BW is still ticking down, meaning that you have BM up for a higher percentage of the time that you're actually attacking than if there were no transitions (or transitions right as BW comes off cooldown).

I agree with you that surv > BM, but that one reason you gave is wrong.

[Dracodraco]

This isn't true. It doesn't matter what spec you're playing during transitions: you can't attack either way. If anything, this scenario helps put BM ahead of surv because most of the time transitions happen when your abilities are on cooldown. So you can't attack, but your BW is still ticking down, meaning that you have BM up for a higher percentage of the time that you're actually attacking than if there were no transitions (or transitions right as BW comes off cooldown).

I agree with you that surv > BM, but that one reason you gave is wrong.

I don't see how it is. Let's say you do 111K dps - 100K sustained, 200K when a CD such as BW is up, 10 secs every 1 minute. If you delay BW for too long, your dps will obviously drop further than it would if you were doing, say, 110K sustained DPS without using a cooldown. It all depends on your timing in the end, and the difference is so small that only on 100% uptime bosses is it worth it / ahead. Even having the cooldown ticking down during a transistion like on Lei Shen is no different - if you go in with, say, 20 seconds left on BW and you thus have to delay your next BW by 20-30 seconds, it's still a huge loss comparable, because you're delaying your burst and possibly missing out. Both specs have sustained damage that they lose out on, yes, but BM is reliant on the BW damage to actually be ahead.

[Neazy]

I don't see how it is. Let's say you do 111K dps - 100K sustained, 200K when a CD such as BW is up, 10 secs every 1 minute. If you delay BW for too long, your dps will obviously drop further than it would if you were doing, say, 110K sustained DPS without using a cooldown. It all depends on your timing in the end, and the difference is so small that only on 100% uptime bosses is it worth it / ahead. Even having the cooldown ticking down during a transistion like on Lei Shen is no different - if you go in with, say, 20 seconds left on BW and you thus have to delay your next BW by 20-30 seconds, it's still a huge loss comparable, because you're delaying your burst and possibly missing out. Both specs have sustained damage that they lose out on, yes, but BM is reliant on the BW damage to actually be ahead.

Only true if you're actually attacking something when BW is off cooldown, but for some reason not using BW. If you can't attack because of fight mechanics, your DPS doesn't drop any more than it would if you were any other spec.

If there's a transition where you have to be attacking things but can't use BW because you need to save it for a more important part of the fight, then yeah, that's where BM falls behind. But that could still be a good thing because your DPS on the more important target would be much higher than survival, even though your overall DPS would be lower.

[Dracodraco]

Only true if you're actually attacking something when BW is off cooldown, but for some reason not using BW. If you can't attack because of fight mechanics, your DPS doesn't drop any more than it would if you were any other spec.

If there's a transition where you have to be attacking things but can't use BW because you need to save it for a more important part of the fight, then yeah, that's where BM falls behind. But that could still be a good thing because your DPS on the more important target would be much higher than survival, even though your overall DPS would be lower.

Except you can lose uses of BW over the fight with enough downtime. Such as on a boss like Lei Shen where the transition phases makes up for over a minute of the fight, or ending the fight right before BW comes off cooldown. SV does not have near the same issue.

[Neazy]

Except you can lose uses of BW over the fight with enough downtime. Such as on a boss like Lei Shen where the transition phases makes up for over a minute of the fight, or ending the fight right before BW comes off cooldown. SV does not have near the same issue.

You don't "lose" anything if you're not attacking. All specs put out 0 DPS if you're not attacking anything. In a fight with transitions like that, the percentage of time that you're on target and under the effect of BW is at least the same as an uninterrupted fight, but usually higher.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:03 AM ----------

Take 2 examples. Fight 1 is a 10 minute fight with no interruptions. Fight 2 is a 12 minute fight with four 30-second interruptions.

Fight 1 allows 10 uses of BW, so you're under the effects for 100 seconds out of 600 that you're attacking a target. This gives you 16.67% uptime of BW.

Fight 2 allows 12 uses of BW, so you're under the effects for 120 seconds out of 720. However, you can only attack the boss for 600 of those seconds, so in reality you have BW up for 120 seconds out of 600 that you're attacking something. This gives you 20% uptime.

It's not a perfect example because sometimes transitions happen at weird times and you might only get 11 or 10 uses of BW in fight 2, but you will never get less than 10 unless you screw up somewhere. That means that transition fights are at least as good for BM as any other fight, but they're usually better.

[Saoron]

Yea if anything those fights favor BM even more so since you have higher chances to have procs up at the same time again after a period of not attacking.. and all those up again along with a fresh BW = a lot more dmg.. I just don't get your logic..