Holy Paladin nerfs in PTR patch 5.3

[nightfalls]

I've looked through the last few posts in this thread and the sticky and I might be missing it entirely, but I really just have a simple question. Even with the nerf, is mastery still the best secondary stat? If not, which pulled ahead, haste or crit?

I think most of us are sticking with mastery; if not, crit's usually seen as higher than haste (for reasons discussed in some other threads, but basically, aside from extra EF ticks haste doesn't scale with infusion of light and doesn't give more HPM).

Although I don't really have a lot of theorycraft; I've tried and failed to come up with a decent spreadsheet.

[Xs]

I've looked through the last few posts in this thread and the sticky and I might be missing it entirely, but I really just have a simple question. Even with the nerf, is mastery still the best secondary stat? If not, which pulled ahead, haste or crit?

Sorry, I'm sure this is redundant.

Mastery still has enough bonuses to render it superior, IE the effective health gain for the raid and the fact its free + applies on most heals
It may well change, but the general opinion is that Mastery is still the way to go, maybe with slightly closer value to Int now, at least outside of gems

[Freia]

Point stands that you tried to instigate a reaction by using personal facts with nothing to do with the matter at hand, this gives me reason to believe you're not worth my time and as such I won't spend time trying to declare my reasoning as it makes no difference to you.

No I wasn't trying to get a reaction. I was using your logs to help bring aladya's point across. Did I insult your logs? Did say anything was wrong with the numbers? No. You are the one who took it as a personal attack and became rude and lashed out.

[Elysia]

Thanks, void & Xs!

[wollebr]

So...I did read all posts and still with that damm doubt:

About the 4PC bonus from T15...does it worth ?!
Or should I just forget it and use the other pieces from ToT ?!

( Making it clearer: I'm on a 10M core, starting the heroic content (2/13) and the heal set up also has a Disc Priest and a Resto Druid )

Thx.

[Kyuuseishu]

So...I did read all posts and still with that damm doubt:

About the 4PC bonus from T15...does it worth ?!
Or should I just forget it and use the other pieces from ToT ?!

( Making it clearer: I'm on a 10M core, starting the heroic content (2/13) and the heal set up also has a Disc Priest and a Resto Druid )

Thx.

The most common answer you'll receive is a no. But, if you do get a chance to obtain it, try it out, if you find it is beneficial to your raid then use it. If no, stick with the tier head/shoulders, and use the off pieces in the other slots.

[Deleted]

in Eu, there is patch today, and i saw, that, I've got cut down around 10% mastery. In blue post there is talk about 2%. It's bug?

[Deleted]

in Eu, there is patch today, and i saw, that, I've got cut down around 10% mastery. In blue post there is talk about 2%. It's bug?

They nerfed scaling also. I went down (without buffs) from 31% to 26%.

I have 7700 mastery rating atm.

[Deleted]

I'm finding beacon overheal @ 35-50% healing a monk solotank, and 40-65% when healing a dk solotank. rough figures, but meh.

[Deleted]

I'm finding beacon overheal 35-50% healing a monk solotank, and 40-65% when healing a dk solotank. rough figures, but meh.

Then stop using beacon as a tank heal, move it around.

[Deleted]

I'm finding beacon overheal @ 35-50% healing a monk solotank, and 40-65% when healing a dk solotank. rough figures, but meh.

Use Beacon as Heal, without global cooldown, use your direct heals on tank because beacon target won't get mastery shield. Otherwise you heal non tank and your mastery will fade off, it will be used on your tank tho.

[Deleted]

Use Beacon as Heal, without global cooldown, use your direct heals on tank because beacon target won't get mastery shield. Otherwise you heal non tank and your mastery will fade off, it will be used on your tank tho.

Depending on what you're trying to achieve this can be good, although slightly negated if you have an Eternal Flame on the person you're healing as then you get anywhere up to 45 seconds for the shield to be used.

What is more interesting though is that in terms of HPM at least, ToR can be more effective than getting the beacon heal. This is because ToR heals AND the resultant Eternal Flame benefit from mastery whereas a beacon heal doesn't. I ran some numbers, I don't have the post-count to post links, but you can find the results on google if you enter, "lightshammer hpm paladin". I am going to post some updated results including the effect of T15 4-set and the mastery nerf, this weekend.

Obviously ignore that for heals which don't proc Tower of Radiance, e.g. Holy Light.

[Deleted]

Then stop using beacon as a tank heal, move it around.

35-65% overheal is pretty decent for beacon. Switching is between tanks/high dmg intake people I find works best. Overswitching beacon is generally counterproductive as it's on the wrong target until the next time you cast a DL/FOL.

The point of my initial post was that 35-65% Overheal for beacon is pretty normal [and dependent on the tank], not that I don't know how to use beacon. The context of the discussion is T15 4p, not 'how i use beacon plz??'

Use Beacon as Heal, without global cooldown, use your direct heals on tank because beacon target won't get mastery shield. Otherwise you heal non tank and your mastery will fade off, it will be used on your tank tho.

I find this situational; on something like council I'll want no gcd on beacon to heal frostbite and generate HP, on something like Durumu hc i'll want to keep it switched between the two tanks just before light spectrum/during maze [low dmg periods] and use my glyph slots for other things.

---------- Post added 2013-05-22 at 05:27 PM ----------

What is more interesting though is that in terms of HPM at least, ToR can be more effective than getting the beacon heal. This is because ToR heals AND the resultant Eternal Flame benefit from mastery whereas a beacon heal doesn't. I ran some numbers, I don't have the post-count to post links, but you can find the results on google if you enter, "lightshammer hpm paladin". I am going to post some updated results including the effect of T15 4-set and the mastery nerf, this weekend.

If what you mean is that trading off zero beacon healing for more HP via ToR is mana and [somewhat] output efficient, I'd be really interested to see the math for 5.3

posting link for you as it's excellent: http://lightshammer.net/?p=18

[Lantern214]

in Eu, there is patch today, and i saw, that, I've got cut down around 10% mastery. In blue post there is talk about 2%. It's bug?

It was 8% total with the 2% and scale nerf.

[monikasun88]

Mastery gives a 10% base bonus (before it was 12%). The 2% might be referring to the decrease in the base percentage.
Every 600 points of mastery, you get 1 mastery rating which before translated to 1.5% mastery but was nerfed to 1.25% mastery.

So if you have 8000 mastery, before the nerf you would have 12% + 8000/600*1.5% = 32% mastery. Now you have 10% + 8000/600*1.25% = 26.67% mastery. It was a 16.67% nerf.

[Deleted]

The new 4-set is actually not too bad if you play with the beacon glyph and are willing/able to move beacon around instead of leaving it on the tank all the time.

To me, you move the beacon just to generate more HP. But then I don't see the point of using the 4P if you're willing to move it as much as possible, as you'll have almost no healing done with the Beacon. Rather get offsets with better stats then... I wouldn't use the 4P with many Beacon moves, but thats my feeling.

Edit : Read the lightshammer post, pretty interesting ! I try as much as possible to avoid DL without Beacon, and HL + beacon transfer is not that bad in HPM. The Beacon healing is interesting when damage isn't too high and you can HL quietly inbetween HS+EF (or HR), otherwise swapping is better I guess.

I already gave my opinion on the 4P : Playing 10m, atm 8/13, with a Rdruid and a Disc. I will probably use the 4P on some encounters, because if you agree with the other healers on focusing on tank healing and eventually a high damage target (volatil pathogen, biting frost, cinders...), you'll see your beacon overheal drop -a lot-.
Some pallys also said it was too boring to play this way... Well that's maybe why I like my MW alt so much

But aside, I do think that in 25m, the 4p is useless.

Any feedback on Daybreak ? I'm kinda dissapointed actually, it definetly boosted the spell but still a shitton overhealing... I thought it would work better than this.

[Xs]

Any feedback on Daybreak ? I'm kinda dissapointed actually, it definetly boosted the spell but still a shitton overhealing... I thought it would work better than this.

It feels like a pretty hard nerf so far, the fact that it can stack twice is just to make up for the longer CD but I rarely find a point where you're able to use the double stacks

[chairmanmao]

Spec feels incredibly awkward without the t14 4pc and the Daybreak change. I feel like I'm being punished for not stacking daybreak twice...

[nightfalls]

Daybreak change did little to anything, the "buff" would have to be a lot heavier (or better yet the ability simply redesigned) just from a brief look to actually make a difference. I haven't gotten a chance to review logs thoroughly though, so maybe there's some fights where it does help(?)

Also note that a 1 stack Daybreak has actually been reduced from 5.0 (again not that it matters, since it is such a high overheal anyway).

What's more disappointing in my books is that Disc seems to have been hardly touched at all. The atonement nerf is a big joke and really only relevant on heavy atonement (aka, non-intense) fights. PoH and SS are just as OP as ever with their absorbs, just now instead of being #1 with paladins as #2, they are just #1. Since we aren't running with a monk in raid at this moment I can't speak much for that, but I'd imagine it's just as bad there.

I can agree with a paradigm that absorbs should be toned down (and I can agree with increasing druids/shaman but IMO not monks); in that case, I'm wondering where disc's mastery/DA scaling nerf is. With both increased crit and mastery, that is the scaling which will be out of control.


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In terms of PvP, disc has only been buffed (penance), while paladins have really only been nerfed. Despite their already-low representation, the mastery nerf is a throughput/survival reduction (mastery is also a good PvP stat, just not as strong as in PvE). Since DP hasn't actually been made usable while stunned (doh), I can't see anything getting better from the place it is. I don't PvP at that high of a level so I can't speak for other classes/possible fixes, but I will say I'm astute enough to notice "throughput reduction with no compensation" as being negative for a class already in a bad place.

[Xs]

I agree void, although I'd add that maybe the reason they took the nerf bat to us as hard as they did, is because of our utility in this current tier, being able to BoP and Sacrifice a lot of things has been putting us at a fairly big advantage

Not trying to say Disc isn't OP, but it certainly has less utility than we do, especially when you include things like DProt & Bubble for easy cheesing mechanics, I've yet to have our Disc in the raid though so I've not seen just how the nerfs changed them relative to us, all I know is that our raid wasn't very happy with the initial few bosses worth of sloppy healing as me and the other Paladin got used to the new style under proper raiding conditions