Rebuttal to Vol'jin 5.3 Spoilers

[Lavannah]

I still think the original intention was humorous sarcasm. The response though really isn't him being a wuss about it, it's just fact. There aren't very many of them and they need all the help they can get. He wasn't adverse to sending envoys to Stormwind for the revamp of ZA and ZG, so this seems entirely in character for him. The way it's written though isn't great... Blizz does continuously make him out to look like a coward in a lot of instances(Tide of War anyone? Christie may have written it, but the main points come from Blizz). Last time he stuck to his guns he got a knife in the throat. Hopefully Mr. Stackpole does a good job in Shadows of the Horde.

[Sports72Xtrm]

I like it. Vol'jin strongarm's the Alliance with threats even sarcastically, and he can find himself in a two front war with his entire tribe wiped out. The Alliance shouldn't take lip from anybody especially from an known previous enemy who needs the Alliance's help more than the Alliance needs his.

[Ragashii]

This is just like the crap where a random chick thought Ji Firepaw was being creepy by saying their female panda was pretty. Then they changed his lines because of that. Then people complained that he was boring because of it. Then they changed his lines again. So I'm not surprised people were offended by what Vol'Jin said. It would've been better if they voiced that part so that people could have his sarcasm spoon fed directly into their ears.

[Talen]

Will get screens up later, but in this latest ptr patch, they added the Alliance rebuttal to Vol'jin's bluff on the ptr.

Yes.

Player: "Why should we help you? What if we kept the barrens supplies for ourselves?"

Ahhh...the question he should have asked Scully or Amber BEFORE he walked into a troll camp.

Vol'jin cackles, the stench of his hot breath reeking in your nostrils. "Oh, ya got anudda plan? I got anudda plan, too. I let ya siege Orgrimmar on ya own. See how far ya get. An' once da city be filled wit' corpses, den me shadow hunters come in, we mop up what left, kill Kor'kron an 'Alliance alike. Give ya dead to Sylvannas. Hmm! I save a lot a Darkspear lives wit 'dis plan! Mmmn? You don't like? Then we stay wit' da first plan. We work together. We don't even have ta like each other.

A bluff thats either so idiotic and transparent a babe could see through, combined with diplomacy that woudl make Garrosh weep with envy....or so clever I can't follow it.

Player: [CAll his bluff] Why don't WE wait until YOU attack orgrimmar, and then mop up YOUR dead?

But if the player doesn't see the idiocy in Vol'jins bluff, Blizzard will just point it out to them.

Vol'jin sees his opportunity slipping away. He holds up his hands. "Wait now, <race>! Orgrimmar be a fortress. My people, we aint gonna crack dat nut on our own. How long we gonna last out here? Days? Weeks? Vol'jin can't say. You keep da supplies comin', an' I promise, more Kor'kron gonna die. Before ya treoops even land! The blood bein' spilt ain't even ya own! Surely dat be worth a few crates of meat?

And Vol'jin just told the Alliance player he has a losing hand and needs Alliance help.

Why does the Alliance need this idiot? Why did the Alliance tell him of the invasion plans?

The end result of this change is the same.

It makes Vol'jin out to be an even bigger idiot and someone who caves. He talks the talk but when asked to "put up or shut up....". Poor characterisation, poor development. What it comes across is someone at Blizzard thought it'd be cool for him, to talk back without thinking about how it comes across or how it'd work.
It still provides no reason for the Alliance to work with Vol'jin, no reason for the Alliance to do more than provide supplies and still emphasises the Alliances role as "afterthought" in this storyline.

Blizzards obviously not going to put any work or thought into actually addressing these issues though.

The Alliance simply needs some reason to be there, some reason to work WITH Vol'jin instead of for him. The Alliance needs something more than a remote control cat to look forward to.

Vol'jin needs to come across as a leader. As someone who sees the bigger picture. He's done it before...why not now?

EJL

[Notos]

That's rather silly. If both sides call each others' bluffs and neither attacks Garrosh, what is Garrosh going to do? He's going to keep going for resources for his war machine, which means attacking Alliance. Vol'jin at least has the option of withdrawing to Mulgore or to Horde lands in the Eastern Kingdoms, so he can avoid confrontation if he wants, while the Alliance doesn't really have that option.

[Sports72Xtrm]

[QUOTE=Talen;20872519]Yes.



Ahhh...the question he should have asked Scully or Amber BEFORE he walked into a troll camp.

Vol'jin cackles, the stench of his hot breath reeking in your nostrils. "Oh, ya got anudda plan? I got anudda plan, too. I let ya siege Orgrimmar on ya own. See how far ya get. An' once da city be filled wit' corpses, den me shadow hunters come in, we mop up what left, kill Kor'kron an 'Alliance alike. Give ya dead to Sylvannas. Hmm! I save a lot a Darkspear lives wit 'dis plan! Mmmn? You don't like? Then we stay wit' da first plan. We work together. We don't even have ta like each other. [./quote]

A bluff thats either so idiotic and transparent a babe could see through, combined with diplomacy that woudl make Garrosh weep with envy....or so clever I can't follow it.



But if the player doesn't see the idiocy in Vol'jins bluff, Blizzard will just point it out to them.



And Vol'jin just told the Alliance player he has a losing hand and needs Alliance help.

Why does the Alliance need this idiot? Why did the Alliance tell him of the invasion plans?

The end result of this change is the same.

It makes Vol'jin out to be an even bigger idiot and someone who caves.
It still provides no reason for the Alliance to work with Vol'jin, no reason for the Alliance to do more than provide supplies and still emphasises the Alliances role as "afterthought" in this storyline.

Blizzards obviously not going to put any work or thought into actually addressing these issues though.

EJL

Talen take it easy. I don't like Vol'jin's disrespectful rebuttal to the question of why his rebellion deserves the spoils of war, but him offering to kill lots of Kor'kron, the Horde's most fearsome army, for a few crates of meat with out any Alliance casualties does not appeal to you? Yeah he caves because he knows he's in a weak position. The Alliance if he does anything to the PC know he will be fighting a two front war between Garrosh and the Alliance. He is weak at the moment and yes I think it's badass the PC saw right through it.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 05:30 AM ----------

That's rather silly. If both sides call each others' bluffs and neither attacks Garrosh, what is Garrosh going to do? He's going to keep going for resources for his war machine, which means attacking Alliance. Vol'jin at least has the option of withdrawing to Mulgore or to Horde lands in the Eastern Kingdoms, so he can avoid confrontation if he wants, while the Alliance doesn't really have that option.

Since when is Garrosh going to let a rebellion instigator live amongst his Horde without a worry in the world? Garrosh will send his blackrock orc to hunt him down. He'll always be running. The Alliance has to attack Ogrimmar at this very second? Yeah have the option to wait and assess the situation. Garrosh doesn't have the Alliance army by the balls, they've been able to repel him at every turn in the MoP and maybe even garnered several allies from Pandaria.

[Talen]

That's rather silly. If both sides call each others' bluffs and neither attacks Garrosh, what is Garrosh going to do? He's going to keep going for resources for his war machine, which means attacking Alliance. Vol'jin at least has the option of withdrawing to Mulgore or to Horde lands in the Eastern Kingdoms, so he can avoid confrontation if he wants, while the Alliance doesn't really have that option.

The Alliance doesn't have to invade. If it doesn't work with Vol'jin...Vol'jin still fights. He doesn't have the option of retreat. Not any more. He just won't last as long as he would with Alliance help. Which is why his bluff is idiocy.

He should be telling the Alliance palyers they don't have a choice. That they need to attack Garrosh. That Garrosh has a secret weapon they need to destroy and the Allaicne can't wait for a better time. He shouldn't be insulting the Alliance...he should be framing the discussion so they have no choice but to assist him

The entire exchange is ridiculous.

EJL

[McCulloch]

Congratulations, you got a petty comeback to purposefully outlandish sarcasm. What a monumental victory for the Alliance. In other news, you still get to be Vol'jin's pet, collecting various supplies for a Horde rebellion.

[Mouri Kogorou]

What a traitor.

[Kojo]

Good, good, now I can say it's the alliance who are douchebags.

The one time they make the darkspear not look like helpless infants and they gotta screw that up.

[Dragon2K]

Congratulations, you got a petty comeback to purposefully outlandish sarcasm. What a monumental victory for the Alliance. In other news, you still get to be Vol'jin's pet, collecting various supplies for a Horde rebellion.

Merely a setback! Soon, we'll have him on our leash and he'll be cleaning roads or installing some proper lighting in the Drag in our Orgrimm-.. sorry, I mean Variannar.

[Talen]

Talen take it easy. I don't like Vol'jin's disrespectful rebuttal to the question of why his rebellion deserves the spoils of war, but him offering to kill lots of Kor'kron, the Horde's most fearsome army, for a few crates of meat with out any Alliance casualties does not appeal to you?

<sigh> It does. Its a good plan.

It doesn't provide the rationale for working for him.

Vol'jin is unnecessarily insulting.He is unnecessarily undiplomatic. He's better than this. We've also worked with him before so he should and does know better. Which also means his request the Alliance prove themselves trustworthy means he has forgotten what he did during the Zandalari incursions

"We helped you save the world. We dropped everything at YOUR request. We worked alongside you and your people for MONTHS. And now you say you don't trust us?"

Vol'jin here is badly written and poorly developed.

On the Alliance side...its a good plan. Why are they taking order from Vol'jin again? Why are they spending Alliance lives? Why are you approaching Vol'jin anyway for a plan that doesn't require his agreement or cooperation?

[Yeah he caves because he knows he's in a weak position. The Alliance if he does anything to the PC know he will be fighting a two front war between Garrosh and the Alliance. He is weak at the moment and yes I think it's badass the PC saw right through it

A babe could see through it. Garrosh should be able to see through it. They key point is that his bluff requires the Alliance to be stupid at a level that would make Ogres look like geniuses. His threat can only be exceptionally insulting to the Alliance...an Alliance who need invade only if they believe they will win.

The problem with the threat is that it makes Vol'jin look poor. Which is the point the Alliance player makes. It's an incredibly stupid mistake to make.

This counter bluff simply emphasises the Alliance doen't have to invade and that Vol'jin is an idiot for even making the threat.

EJL

[Darmalus]

Much more diplomatic and reasonable. I like this version much better, this way we really make a pact to help both our sides get an easier victory.

Still apprehensive about how this whole assault on Org. is going to end on a high for the Alliance, tbh. Garrosh is unlikely to fall by our hand, and we're also unlikely to do more then just hand Org. back to rebel Horde, so I seriously, seriously hope that our fist pumping moment is not just the Alliance getting the chance to siege Org. and watch the Horde do all the actually important bits, and get all the canon glory, while we basically get nothing from the whole ordeal, but a crater where Theramore used to be.

Horde get to be rebels, cleaning up their faction, while the Alliance only get to be the enablers of the Horde rebel's big moment of finishing Garrosh. That's not a fist pumping moment, at all. I hope Blizz takes the drama surrounding this particular quest to heart when designing the particulars around the siege of Orgrimmar and makes sure there's sufficient actual fist pumping to do for both sides.

The Horde/Alliance conflict, splitting the player base, is a fundamentally flawed concept. Look at how the expansion ends, not as H vs A, but at A+H v Garrosh.

The only solution will be to remove the Horde and Alliance as a gamemechanical separation of players. Until then, one side will always be favored over the other. A house built without a roof cannot be fixed by rearranging the furniture.

[Mawnix]

And here, MMO-champion forum users, we have the perfect example of our playerbase:

No one can be pleased.

Ever.

[Sky High]

yea, the alliance can raise their hands up in a half assed "we got em". oh how happy you all must feel. too bad it wont mean jack shit when it's all said and done. you will still help the siege you will still help the rebels get what they want (and what you want). and all you can pat yourselves on the back over is weather or not Vol'jin sucks up to you. /sarcastic cheering

[Dragon2K]

The Horde/Alliance conflict, splitting the player base, is a fundamentally flawed concept. Look at how the expansion ends, not as H vs A, but at A+H v Garrosh.

The only solution will be to remove the Horde and Alliance as a gamemechanical separation of players. Until then, one side will always be favored over the other. A house built without a roof cannot be fixed by rearranging the furniture.

Oh yes, THAT will make everyone happy! ....

[ZakAtack]

Why do I feel like if Varian had gone batshit insane and we were getting the Siege of Stormwind, the Alliance players would be complaining about the demonization of their leader and whining about having to have the Horde come in and help out while they were being portrayed as mere rebels?

I agree with what Destil said.

[Florena]

Yes.



Ahhh...the question he should have asked Scully or Amber BEFORE he walked into a troll camp.



A bluff thats either so idiotic and transparent a babe could see through, combined with diplomacy that woudl make Garrosh weep with envy....or so clever I can't follow it.



But if the player doesn't see the idiocy in Vol'jins bluff, Blizzard will just point it out to them.



And Vol'jin just told the Alliance player he has a losing hand and needs Alliance help.

Why does the Alliance need this idiot? Why did the Alliance tell him of the invasion plans?

The end result of this change is the same.

It makes Vol'jin out to be an even bigger idiot and someone who caves. He talks the talk but when asked to "put up or shut up....". Poor characterisation, poor development. What it comes across is someone at Blizzard thought it'd be cool for him, to talk back without thinking about how it comes across or how it'd work.
It still provides no reason for the Alliance to work with Vol'jin, no reason for the Alliance to do more than provide supplies and still emphasises the Alliances role as "afterthought" in this storyline.

Blizzards obviously not going to put any work or thought into actually addressing these issues though.

The Alliance simply needs some reason to be there, some reason to work WITH Vol'jin instead of for him. The Alliance needs something more than a remote control cat to look forward to.

Vol'jin needs to come across as a leader. As someone who sees the bigger picture. He's done it before...why not now?

EJL

Why does the Alliance need this? You could say it doesn't 'need' to work with Vol'jin, but the Alliance benefits. As Vol'jin puts it, his rebellion isn't going to last forever. It needs those supplies, and buy giving them to him, he's able to continue killing kor'kron. Meaning he's continuing to thin out Garrosh's forces, without a single drop of Alliance blood shed. Thinning his ranks before the Alliance even lands. Heck according to Varian's letter it seems vol'jin may even be willing to cause trouble enough in bladefist bay for the Alliance to land on Garrosh's very doorstep. THAT is why you don't just run off with the supplies on your own. The Alliance gains much from working with Vol'jin. To say the Alliance has no reason to work with him is silly.

As for him caving, Vol'jin knows he's in a tough spot. He's wise enough to know he needs help, and he needs it now. He's in a tight corner, and when you come to him and say 'well what if I don't help you and keep it for myself' he tries to bluff, because he is in that tight spot and knows he needs your help. Then when you call said bluff he calms down and takes a more reasonable approach.

Maybe you would throw this opportunity away because Vol'jin made an undiplomatic bluff. I wouldn't, SI 7 won't. The Alliance doesn't lose anything in this. No Alliance blood is being shed here. It's not like the Alliance is sending forces to fight and die under Vol'jins command, we're just stealing resources from the barrens and dropping them off.

And this is just in the alliance quest. He doesn't need to neccisarily come across to Alliance as a leader. He does to the Horde, and he does. Him slipping up and making an ill advised bluff to alliance players doesn't immediately negate the good leading he's done horde side.

[Sports72Xtrm]

<sigh> It does. Its a good plan.

It doesn't provide the rationale for working for him.

Vol'jin is unnecessarily insulting.He is unnecessarily undiplomatic. He's better than this. We've also worked with him before so he should and does know better. Which also means his request the Alliance prove themselves trustworthy means he has forgotten what he did during the Zandalari incursions

"We helped you save the world. We dropped everything at YOUR request. We worked alongside you and your people for MONTHS. And now you say you don't trust us?"

Yeah he also attacked Northwatch Hold, Fort Triumph, and Theramore along with the rest of the Horde. The Alliance DOESN'T and shouldn't trust him. The Alliance doesn't owe Vol'jin anything aside from payback for his role in supporting Garrosh. He's still Horde and when he tells the Alliance to jump, even in a nice way, the Alliance shouldn't just say how high.

On the Alliance side...its a good plan. Why are they taking order from Vol'jin again? Why are they spending Alliance lives? Why are you approaching Vol'jin anyway for a plan that doesn't require his agreement or cooperation?

If it's a good plan, what's with the follow up questions? You are approaching him to negotiate an alliance, and for that to happen you have to set terms of what this relationship is going to be. One of the questions was why should your trolls get the Kor'kron spoils of war when the Alliance can use it? Logical I'd say when you are looking out for the SELF INTEREST of the Alliance. And I think he addressed it by what he was planning to use with those supplies. To kill Kor'kron. And the Alliance isn't spending Alliance lives apparently. It's just the champion aiding the rebellion. What Alliance lives are in danger? They're not even on the field yet.

A babe could see through it. Garrosh should be able to see through it. They key point is that his bluff requires the Alliance to be stupid at a level that would make Ogres look like geniuses. His threat can only be exceptionally insulting to the Alliance...an Alliance who need invade only if they believe they will win.

The problem with the threat is that it makes Vol'jin look poor. Which is the point the Alliance player makes. It's an incredibly stupid mistake to make.

This counter bluff simply emphasises the Alliance doen't have to invade and that Vol'jin is an idiot for even making the threat.

EJL

Did he really have a choice? Like he said, his rebellion wouldn't have lasted a week with out Alliance help apparently. It may have been stupid to insult the Alliance "diplomat" but he is offering to weaken the Horde power structure. They don't have to invade true at this moment but the Alliance will stretch out the war and put lives in jepordy if they don't instigate some adequate resistance to Garrosh's Horde. Better more orcs die than trolls who aren't in a position to threaten the Alliance.

[Florena]

Yeah he also attacked Northwatch Hold, Fort Triumph, and Theramore along with the rest of the Horde. The Alliance DOESN'T and shouldn't trust him. The Alliance doesn't owe Vol'jin anything aside from payback for his role in supporting Garrosh. He's still Horde and when he tells the Alliance to jump, even in a nice way, the Alliance shouldn't just say how high.


If it's a good plan, what's with the follow up questions? You are approaching him to negotiate an alliance, and for that to happen you have to set terms of what this relationship is going to be. One of the questions was why should your trolls get the Kor'kron spoils of war when the Alliance can use it? Logical I'd say when you are looking out for the SELF INTEREST of the Alliance. And I think he addressed it by what he was planning to use with those supplies. To kill Kor'kron. And the Alliance isn't spending Alliance lives apparently. It's just the champion aiding the rebellion. What Alliance lives are in danger? They're not even on the field yet.



Did he really have a choice? Like he said, his rebellion wouldn't have lasted a week with out Alliance help apparently. It may have been stupid to insult the Alliance "diplomat" but he is offering to weaken the Horde power structure. They don't have to invade true at this moment but the Alliance will stretch out the war and put lives in jepordy if they don't instigate some adequate resistance to Garrosh's Horde. Better more orcs die than trolls who aren't in a position to threaten the Alliance.

Yeah. If the Alliance wants to stop Garrosh they DO have to invade Orgrimmar sooner or later. Why not do it now when you can have trolls die to make it easier for you, instead of waiting until Garrosh has a solid grip on Durotar and the Barrens again?